A Few General Avy Gear Q's

The recent Jackson Summit has me thinking I need to start getting at least a little but bc savy. Will be taking a class up at Tuckerman Ravine (if all goes according to plan) and have put beacon, probe and shovel at the top of my gear-to-buy list. Research will be begin asap as to what to buy, but was wondering if anyone wants to share info on what not to buy. Any known clunkers that should be avoided at all costs?

Also, somewhat related, this question has been on my mind a bit but hasn't yet been asked: If a parter goes first and is buried in a slide, what's the safest, best way to get down and start searching? I suppose there are lots of factors involved...

Sick and ashamed and happy (and, yes, a bc jong),
d.

There is a lot of personal perference Gin but here goes.

Beacon - unless you are practicing hours a week, get a Tracker. You still need to practice a shit ton (don't beleive the marketing literature), but the learning curve is quicker. It does not some quirks and others will disagree but this is by opinion. Clunkers = X1

Shovel - the largest metal shovel that will fit in your pack. I carry a G3. Clunkers = tiny plastic shovels

Probe - A 300cm version. I just got a new lifelink, I like it. Clunkers = shorter probes including those that stow in the shovel handle

Seriously consider a snow saw. Makes pit analsysis much easier/ repeatable/ accurate.

Where to decend after a slide - There is no one technique applicable to all situations but generally the process goes. Check for hangfire. If none present, decend the bed surface. If significant hangfire, depending on the situation and the most likely burial point and FOCUSING ON YOUR OWN SAFETY, either cut down the hangfire or proceed down another way.

I'm sure others will have much to add.

foggy did a good job of hooking you up with the right info but there are a few threads hiding that you have to modify the show threads time length to see. read these two and you should get the basic idea but still have some questions to ask:

Rescue w/ links

avy gear

hope these help but please post any other questions you have here or bump those for others to see. does anyone know if you can modify the thead display to show threads older than the last 30 days?

Thanks! This is all a very good start...

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Shovel - the largest metal shovel that will fit in your pack. I carry a G3. Clunkers = tiny plastic shovels

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I agree with everything you wrote, except for the plastic shovel. I hear it over and over again, that those are crappy. but I don't know if that is based on prejudices to synthetic materials or experiences. I just know one thing. The austrian VKI (institute for consumer information) did a field test in 2002 on avyshovels. The ortovox professional resulted as 2nd best. the only remark was that the handle was a little tiny to firmly grasp it, while many metal products (not all) broke or bended in either blade (edit: sorry for the confusion, but I meant blade not handle: originally wrote handle) or shaft.

since mountaineering is always about taking calculated risks and if you are planning to do a lot of hiking I'ld say this shovel is an option. If not it is still the 2nd best option (that existed on the european market in 2002) among all the metal products.

btw. ortovox gives a lifetime warranty on his plastic blades, probably to cope with prejudices. but I'ld be happy if somebody knows better..

Have you ever dug avi debris with composite/plastic? In my experience they simply don't cut into the snow as well.

Lifetime warranty doesn't mean shit if the shovel breaks during a rescue. I could give a rats ass about the $60.

Bottom line, I've seen a Life Link Plastic shovel break. Metal is quicker and more reliable. Try digging with both and let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Lifetime warranty doesn't mean shit if the shovel breaks during a rescue. I could give a rats ass about the $60.

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Any avy shovel will break if you do something stupid. I've broken metal shovels from use. Nothing's unbreakable.

The bigger problem with the plastic shovels is the blade size - most are teeny. Get something with a reasonably sized blade like the Life-Link HMX or G3 or the bigger BD. Super huge is stupid (Life-Link Himalayan) because most people can't efficently lift that much snow.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Have you ever dug avi debris with composite/plastic? In my experience they simply don't cut into the snow as well.

Lifetime warranty doesn't mean shit if the shovel breaks during a rescue. I could give a rats ass about the $60.

Bottom line, I've seen a Life Link Plastic shovel break. Metal is quicker and more reliable. Try digging with both and let me know what you think.

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Well, as I wrote, I was refering to said test, not my own experience. And I didn't compare metal versis plastic in general. But I still consider it as possible, that ortovox actually managed to design a lightweight but still durable shovel while others came up with heavyweight durable looking crap.

As to digging - you're right, it feels a little strange at first - I still don't seem to be digging more ineffectivly.

Of course I don't care about the 60 bucks if my friend is buried. That's why I tried to point out, that I consider it as a marketing instrument in order to cope with generalized prejudices to plastic shovels. (if I'ld care, I would have bought a cheaper metal shovel ;) - just kidding)

I really don't want to turn this thread into some ortovox discussion. but I've honestly never heard that one of those broke, just that plastic sucks in general.

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Originally Posted by greg

The austrian VKI (institute for consumer information) did a field test in 2002 on avyshovels. The ortovox professional resulted as 2nd best. the only remark was that the handle was a little tiny to firmly grasp it, while many metal products (not all) broke or bended in either handle or shaft.

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People must dig through debris properly. Chop chop chop, scoop scoop scoop with Al blades. Do not pry. Only Life-Link and SOS have shovel shafts that extend past the weak point as they attatch to the shovel blade. All other companies do not and you can bend and snap the blade at that point if you dig improperly through hard debris. This is not that uncommon of an occurance.

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Originally Posted by Summit

People must dig through debris properly. Chop chop chop, scoop scoop scoop with Al blades. Do not pry. Only Life-Link and SOS have shovel shafts that extend past the weak point as they attatch to the shovel blade. All other companies do not and you can bend and snap the blade at that point if you dig improperly through hard debris. This is not that uncommon of an occurance.

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From experience you can bend and break the LL blade....

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Originally Posted by Summit

People must dig through debris properly. Chop chop chop, scoop scoop scoop with Al blades. Do not pry. Only Life-Link and SOS have shovel shafts that extend past the weak point as they attatch to the shovel blade. All other companies do not and you can bend and snap the blade at that point if you dig improperly through hard debris. This is not that uncommon of an occurance.

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sorry summit: of course I meant "blade and shaft" not "handle and shaft". edited my first post. thanks for the info.
of course you're right, but there are still some which perform better than others. the design of that point you're talking about was actually the mostly criticized feature in said test.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Only Life-Link and SOS have shovel shafts that extend past the weak point as they attatch to the shovel blade.

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I have an SOS shovel and it is totally bomber. I've dug my car out of half-frozen set-up plow debris with it (a great test for any shovel). But Summit makes an excellent point: prying can break almost any shovel.

Something else to keep in mind is that some of the larger shovel blades (like the SOS) won't fit into the shovel pocket of some of the smaller BC packs. Make sure to test before committing to a purchase.

The Barryvox is another good digital beacon for occasional users.

A probe hint: some probes only have the semi-elastic cord in the center to keep them together, and it's a real pain to get the knot positioned right so it sits in the notch and doesn't let the probe fall apart. Undo the knot, put a cord lock on there, and redo the knot so the cordlock can't fall off the end.

Greg: that's really interesting. I hadn't heard of that test. I'd love to read that article. My info came from several instructors at Silverton Avalanche School.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

From experience you can bend and break the LL blade....

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Yes, improper technique will break anything under certain conditions but stronger LL and SOS designs decrease the likelihood.

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Originally Posted by Spats

I have an SOS shovel and it is totally bomber. I've dug my car out of half-frozen set-up plow debris with it (a great test for any shovel). But Summit makes an excellent point: prying can break almost any shovel.

Something else to keep in mind is that some of the larger shovel blades (like the SOS) won't fit into the shovel pocket of some of the smaller BC packs. Make sure to test before committing to a purchase.

The Barryvox is another good digital beacon for occasional users.

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I agree re the Barryvox.

Good point on the wide blades, but as APD (and most others) will emphatically tell you, wider blades are better. I love my SOS shovel (and beacon). I'm impressed.

I'm sorry summit, you ought to pay for it. http://www.konsument.at/konsument/detail.asp?id=10718 here, you can at least read how they tested. it's been online for free for quite a while though and was linked by many sites.

I bought mine many years before on the advice of several mountain guides. maybe it was considered the best compromise back then and isn't anymore or maybe they laid the emphasis on something light since they just returned from mc kinley and nuptse east. ;)

one of them was philip. some of you might have known him...

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Originally Posted by Summit

I love my SOS shovel (and beacon). I'm impressed.

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Summit - so you went with SOS beacon - glad you like it! Killer range on the thing!

Oh and here's my vote for SOS shovels - you could dig your yard with things.

Greg: Thanks for the link... nein sprechen ze deutch y no tengo diner though ;)

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Summit - so you went with SOS beacon - glad you like it! Killer range on the thing!

Oh and here's my vote for SOS shovels - you could dig your yard with things.

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You could dig your yard with those things. Huge strong light metal blades with bomber interface to the shovel shaft.

The SOS beacon F1-ND rocks! Insane range. Infinately easier to use than the F1 b/c of the downrange LED, 7 minimal overlap range settings with step indicators, and the 7 vs 3 LED readout. It also has a nicer harness and idiotproof battery indicator. The *only* complaint I have is that the audio isn't nearly as loud as the F1 which isn't a problem 95% of the time since the 7 LEDs make visual cues the real indicator however I do rely more on the audio during multiple burials. It hasn't been a problem yet but in a windstorm it could get hard to hear the audio with a helmet on and there's no headphone jack on the F1-ND (nor any of the analog/digital beacons)

The route I took for my avie course, which is not the question you asked but was to go right to the Advanced Rec from U of C course 6 day rather than 2. It was something like $700 but was tax deductible (Can) and included lodging 2 nights Canmore Hostel and 3 nights in Rodgers Pass. For hours of instruction it was a very good deal as it had evening lectures. Also good intro to touring in Rodgers. One of the instructors had been a CMH guide for 15 years so lots of experience.

I've got a SOS F1 beacon and like it. Haven't tried the Tracker but I went in a beacon search contest thing at Fernie the tracker people didn't do so well. The old hands with simple analog did well along with the analog/digital Barryvoxs. Second round with multiple beacon search the Barryvoxs cleaned up. Could be lots of reasons for this so its just an observation. But it did seem that the feature to be able to switch from analog to digital was a big plus in multiple signal mode. Of course practice and proficiently was the biggest factor.

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Originally Posted by Summit

there's no headphone jack on the F1-ND (nor any of the analog/digital beacons)

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my M2 has a headphone jack.

I gotta put my plug in for the Barryvox. I am a low-moderate user, and I find it very intuitive to use after periods of non-use. I also like the analog/digital switching features as well... I am very happy with how the unit works. I DO practice with it a moderate amount. I have done single (practice) searches with it and the people I was with were quite impressed. I did a really cool practice multiple burial scenario (on an actual slope -- was set up REALLY well!), and I was WAY quicker than the other participants were with their Trackers.
As always, YMMV, just practice and be familiar with your gear!

EDIT> Yup, the Barryvox has a headphone jack...

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Originally Posted by Summit

Yes, improper technique will break anything under certain conditions but stronger LL and SOS designs decrease the likelihood.

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Not by much in my experience. The G3 is a better quality shovel than either of those in my experience. As for blade size - buy your pack to fit your shovel blade, not the reverse.

If you really want range by a Barryvox VS2000 - 100m range. Range is overrated in my opinion (which is backed up by "outdated" studies), but I don't want to start that pissing match again :rolleyes2 Just remember the maximum range for your beacon in receive mode is also dependant on the frequency of the signal from the buried beacon. Unless you will practice frequently, by a digital beacon.

gin - You're getting a bunch of good information here. I've got a Life Link plastic bladed shovel and was perfectly happy with it until this year when I went to dig my car out of refrozen snow and ice in La Grave. When it came to hacking through the sort of reconsolidated mank that often forms in an avalanche runout, the plastic blade just didn't have the heft and penetration of Brownmonkey's metal bladed tool. So I'm going from plastic to metal this summer.

As regards your second question, techniques can vary, but I was always taught to note the last seen position of your partner and the direction (curvature etc) of the slide. Look for telltale debris and then descend with beacon on receive along that path working from side to side, descending 10m or so when 10m from the edge of the slide, working back and doing likewise. It's imperative not to have to ascend in search of your partner. Some beacons give more leeway with better range than others. When you have a signal you can then home in as per the beacon's instructions.

This thread is underrated

Check the demo for an example of the "course search".

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

This thread is underrated

Check the demo for an example of the "course search".

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I don't need to go out and do beacon drills. I now know that I can find you in 12 seconds according to that simulation. Joking aside, that was a fun site and almost made me buy a Tracker (again).

Just to chime in I used one of the new pieps in my avy course a few weeks ago and it rocked...I have a tracker, but when we did a multiple burial, just hit the button on the pieps and it locked out the beacon you just found....supposedly that feature is not perfect yet, but it worked for me..potentially could save time of finding/turning off a located beacon in that type of situation

Z, that's good to hear about the pieps. the new movement during guide training and avalanche rescue courses is to leave all found beacons attached and transmitting on all victims. i guess the thought is to secondary slides and the amount of time it takes to unbury a torso just to turn off the beacon. in multiple burials they teach you to get an airway and move on to the next victim.