2011/12 buy an Avy Airbag? discussion thread

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10-30-2011, 09:59 AM
sfotex

2011/12 buy an Avy Airbag? discussion thread

Yeah, yeah, plenty of threads on threads on models and stuff,
but cost and weight aside, I think there are enough models out this season that are good, or at least adequate, backpacks (big problem from the recent past). I'm pretty conservative as it is, and always trying to edubicate myself with the latest knowledge,research, etc. + 2 kids I'm debating picking up one this season to have another possible advantage if caught (not that I'm planing on it..). Cost, yeah they cost a lot, but how much is my life worth?, and do I really need new skis vs. a airbag? Weight, I lost 15lbs this summer, so 3-4 extra pounds isn't going to be a big deal.

Or just keep on with my avalung and consider that good enough? I ski a lot in the Wasatch, so lots of trees to hit if caught, but ending up on top even if injured has to help.

So if you've put any thought into it, why or why aren't you getting an avy airbag this season?
10-30-2011, 12:08 PM
auvgeek

Well, it's only my second season in the bc, but I'll respond. I did decide to spring for the MR Blackjack through the TGR group buy. My thought process was similar to yours: how much is my life worth? Sure, the weight and cost of airbag packs will continue to come down, but, based on that argument, one would never buy any electronics because they're always rapidly improving. I think the packs are now getting to the point where they are accessible (distributors in NA), functional, and semi-affordable.

As it happens, I was looking for a new pack anyway. Last season I was using a 50L climbing pack that was just too big (volume wise), and the carry wasn't particularly comfortable. And it turns out the Mystery Ranch Blackjack fits the my criteria perfectly - ~40L, separate shovel/probe compartment, good ski carry, comfortable, durable, top loading. While not as light as I'd like, I bought my brother an MR Fuze and was very impressed with fit, carry, and build quality. If I'm going to carry a heavier 3-4 pounds, I may as well be using a great carry system. To be honest, the group buy helped push me over the fence.

If you subtract the cost of a new pack anyway (~$200), the price becomes pretty reasonable.
10-31-2011, 07:40 AM
StopMakingSense

I'll be grabbing one and and skiing in Wasatch this winter. Ended up deciding on the Float 18 when I get it later this month. I thought, why not? I'm currently using a 32L Outlaw AvaLung that was going to get replaced this winter with a smaller pack, so just spend the extra on the airbag right? I think its as simple as just hunkering down for a month and staying away from buying beer, seeing some movies, avoiding gear swap, and not going out. I'll be inside for a month but I think it's worth my life. Plus the Outlaw AvaLung is worth about $100 right?

My only concern is that I'm putting so much of my personal weight on this airbag as a solution to solve my current enigma of "I don't want to die".

As for the weight ... 1700g (Outlaw) vs 2948g (Float)? 1248g difference ... I'm sure the lack of beer will fully make up for it.

sfotex send me a pm and let me know what pack you're thinking of, I'll see what I can do for you if you want a pack
10-31-2011, 08:06 AM
skifishbum

I'm stayin with the bd avabong 420 that fits me well.
That weight is better served carrying more shit hit the fan gear than I FUCKED UP PULL THE MR. TURTLE DRIXXLE DRAZZLE DRIZZLE DRONE TIME FOR THIS ONE TO
STAY ON TOP AND PINBALLL OFF TREES CORD
IMO OF COURSE
10-31-2011, 08:56 AM
sfotex

Quote:

Originally Posted by skifishbum

TIME FOR THIS ONE TO
STAY ON TOP AND PINBALLL OFF TREES CORD

True, but ending up on top with trauma is better then buried deep with trauma + hypothermia +air way issues.
10-31-2011, 09:00 AM
skifishbum

NOT GOIN FOR RIDES IS BEST
OR SO ROJ HAS TOLD ME THE WHITE WAVE OF SUFICATIN DEATH NEARLY GOT HIM
10-31-2011, 09:14 AM
sfotex

Quote:

Originally Posted by skifishbum

NOT GOIN FOR RIDES IS BEST

That's my plan, but shit happens - I remember a companion of yours that went for a little ride in an area you've skied a bizzillion times. It's like, should I buy a Ford F-350 so I'll be safer in a car wreck?
The avalung has had some saves too, and it's lighter and cheaper, but I guess it's patented and has it's issues too.
10-31-2011, 09:22 AM
skifishbum

Perhaps Jamie P and the holy spirit
will booter up everything we want to ski down this year
thus slope stability testin it.
QUIT TRYIN TO CHANGE MY MIND
10-31-2011, 10:24 AM
marshalolson

i think owning an airbag all depends on what you are doing. if you spend most of your time touring and skiing denser trees, ridge line traverses, etc, well, the airbag is not going to be really that worth it, in terms of weight, size, smaller carry capacity etc.

if you skin up a mountain and look for runs that are above tree-line and steep, or is an obvious old avy scar, well... why would you NOT want an airbag? regardless if its totally stable and good to go? in my book, no ski is safe up high, and you should always plan your run around the possibility of it sliding. for that skier, i think an airbag is required equipment.

i just picked up a float 18. its a little heavier than my mystery ranch fuse, and carries everything i need for a day ski. but i skin up, pull skins, and ski down. repeat. maybe if its a full bell-to-bell day, i eat a little trail mix, while i am out. i have eat a sick breakfast before i head out, and have a big lunch waiting for me in the car. i don't dick around at the bottom or top of a run. i don't need anything more than a very small light extra layer (patagonia nano), maybe an extra pair of gloves, my skins/shovel/probe and a small bottle of water. for this, the float 18 is perfect.
10-31-2011, 10:32 AM
skifishbum

^^^ interestin
would you rather have no airbag and a strong multi year partner or a little skilled noob and an airbag?
I'll take the strong human element all day every day in that scenario.
I agree w/ you on the above treeline is where this technology really shines
10-31-2011, 10:43 AM
hop

Quote:

Originally Posted by skifishbum

^^^ interestin
would you rather have no airbag and a strong multi year partner or a little skilled noob and an airbag?
I'll take the strong human element all day every day in that scenario.
I agree w/ you on the above treeline is where this technology really shines

A skilled BC partner will be able to dig out an airbag victim (assuming they're only partially buried as most airbag users are (someone find me the numbers)) much faster than they would a full burial. I'm sure the difference would be much greater with a total newbie digging.

Weight and cost are the only real deterrents and considering most of us are touring around on fat burly skis with 6" of snow stuck to the topsheets, heavy boots because we're ultra core, and Dukes because PLUMZMMMM!ZZ and Dynafits aren't burl enough for us, what's an extra couple pounds on our backs? The wallet is a tougher nut to crack but as other said, lay off the sauce for a month and you're good to go.

I just got a Float 36 and am looking forward to never using it.

BTW, congratulations on speaking English again!
10-31-2011, 10:59 AM
marshalolson

SFB- the airbag is not a replacement for anything. its simply safer. if you don't feel confident someone has the skills to locate you and dig you out, and you don't faith they have the knowledge to read terrain and make safe line choices while skiing, the you shouldn't take them some place where you would test their skills. whether you have an airbag on or not has nothing to do with it at all.

you wear a helmet, right?

would you rather beater your head into a rock with a helmet on, and only be with someone with no medical training... or would you rather get crash head first into a rock wall, wearing a beanie, and have a surgeon there?

either way, you are probably not LOOKING to smash your head into rock with a helmet on, but if it happens, why would you prefer to NOT have one on? because the helmet is 4x the price of a beanie? because it weights twice as much? really?

i think the airbag analogy applies as well. good safety gear, in the right hands, hopefully never gets used... but the point is its there if you need it.
10-31-2011, 11:06 AM
skifishbum

I'm not yet sold on the technology the cost and weight tradeoff or personal fit/features on any abs pack I have tried but stoked to be goin to sia and be able to try a few more. Just like AT boots, beacons it all just seems to keep getting better.
Hopin wps can get a few mystery ranch packs to demo this season. The bca didn't do it for me as a pack I would wear every day.
10-31-2011, 11:13 AM
mikebrom

^^nice. Yes, the digging time is really a crucial factor, that and the fact that your balloons will be visible on the surface, cutting the search time (in theory).
The bags really do seem very terrain dependent, but I think I will be touring with one this year (used one for mechanized skiing all of last winter). It will be fun to integrate "when NOT to pull your airbag" class into avy courses in the future.
10-31-2011, 11:14 AM
marshalolson

if you need a larger pack, the blackjack is a RAD pack. mystery ranch makes the sickest harnesses and use the best materials and carry the best of any pack i have ever used.

if they made a 20-28L airbag pack, i would be on that thing like stink on a monkey.
10-31-2011, 01:22 PM
sfotex

Quote:

Originally Posted by skifishbum

I'm not yet sold on the technology the cost and weight tradeoff or personal fit/features on any abs pack I have tried but stoked to be goin to sia and be able to try a few more. Just like AT boots, beacons it all just seems to keep getting better.
Hopin wps can get a few mystery ranch packs to demo this season. The bca didn't do it for me as a pack I would wear every day.

This season seems like a turning point though, there are some packs out now that are great packs, with an airbag in them.... I didn't like the float 30 that much (vs. the improved 36 that is out this year), and the blackjack looks amazing.
10-31-2011, 01:31 PM
funkendrenchman

I got the Float 18 this year... my only hold up is gonna be WHEN to pull the cord? I've thought back on all of my runs in the BC and tried to picture when I would have actually pulled the cord. It's actually tough to pick out when would have been the times to use it. Is it as soon as you see something fracture? As soon as you determine you can't get out of the way? As soon as you determine it's large enough to bury you?

I'm sure most people with a lot of days in the backcountry can think of at least one time they may have pulled it, no?
10-31-2011, 01:42 PM
sfotex

Quote:

Originally Posted by marshalolson

i think owning an airbag all depends on what you are doing. if you spend most of your time touring and skiing denser trees, ridge line traverses, etc, well, the airbag is not going to be really that worth it, in terms of weight, size, smaller carry capacity etc.

if you skin up a mountain and look for runs that are above tree-line and steep, or is an obvious old avy scar, well... why would you NOT want an airbag? regardless if its totally stable and good to go? in my book, no ski is safe up high, and you should always plan your run around the possibility of it sliding. for that skier, i think an airbag is required equipment.

.

That's another 'problem' with the Wasatch: I ski a little bit of everything here, not a lot of 'huge' alpine lines compared to Colorado, but there's enough medium sized steep shots/bowls that can bury you deep. There's also a lot of treed stuff that would fubar you too.. I guess when the slope goes and your swimming for your life you can decide if the airbag you did or didn't buy was worth it...
10-31-2011, 02:28 PM
marshalolson

if you ski classic "avalanche terrain" i.e. terrain traps, mildly vs. densely wooded, and are skiing pitch, why would you NOT want to increase your chances of surviving or being critically injured if something bad happens? to save a couple hundred bucks? to save 2lbs of body weight?

just curious what the argument against is... i see SFB's argument that he does not love any current pack. i don;t think anyone should buy or use gear that does not suit their needs, but sfotex, assuming one of the airbags out there suited your needs (and man... there are TONS of them - arva/abs, mammut/snowpulse, avivest, bca, mystery ranch), why would you leave it at home?
10-31-2011, 02:34 PM
MTslackcountry

Just a thought but I would think the bag would help protect your head,neck, and spine in the event that you get strung through tree's/rocks, more so than if you did not have a giant baloon behind you. I dont see anyone else mentioning this.... only comments on how they dont need it because they ski the trees and not big terrain or that it would not help if they were slid in these zones. Anyone else consider the fact that this bag can limit trauma?
10-31-2011, 02:48 PM
sfotex

Quote:

Originally Posted by marshalolson

why would you NOT want to increase your chances of surviving or being critically injured if something bad happens? to save a couple hundred bucks? to save 2lbs of body weight?

just curious what the argument against is... i see SFB's argument that he does not love any current pack. i don;t think anyone should buy or use gear that does not suit their needs, but sfotex, assuming one of the airbags out there suited your needs (and man... there are TONS of them - arva/abs, mammut/snowpulse, avivest, bca, mystery ranch), why would you leave it at home?

I really don't have an argument against one (I'm close to buying one really), but I'm wondering if there's a bit of hype vs. reality in play here. I guess I'm not sure if they are going to be the next avalung, or the next beacon with lower 48 north american terrain.....
10-31-2011, 02:50 PM
sfotex

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTslackcountry

Just a thought but I would think the bag would help protect your head,neck, and spine in the event that you get strung through tree's/rocks, more so than if you did not have a giant baloon behind you. I dont see anyone else mentioning this.... only comments on how they dont need it because they ski the trees and not big terrain or that it would not help if they were slid in these zones. Anyone else consider the fact that this bag can limit trauma?

The PSI's are pretty low, so the impact protection is supposed to be minimal, but I imagine you might end up going feet first, so hitting you leg vs. head could be huge.
10-31-2011, 02:59 PM
icelanticskier

Quote:

Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

my only hold up is gonna be WHEN to pull the cord?

this is so wrong^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^loo king ahead for when you can use your airbag probably means that you'll expose yerself where you may not, without one................"just in case". hope it all worx out for ya.

rog
10-31-2011, 03:03 PM
PNWbrit

Quote:

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

this is so wrong^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^loo king ahead for when you can use your airbag probably means that you'll expose yerself where you may not, without one................"just in case". hope it all worx out for ya.

rog

I think you completely misunderstood his point, which seemed quite clear to me.
10-31-2011, 03:33 PM
marshalolson

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfotex

The PSI's are pretty low, so the impact protection is supposed to be minimal, but I imagine you might end up going feet first, so hitting you leg vs. head could be huge.

according to the swiss avalanche institute, without airbag, and completely burried mortality rate is ~50%, and mortality rate is 13% of all folks caught in an avalanche.

obviously the following has a smaller sample size, but is still meaningful. with an airbag (ABS in this study), mortality rate in an avalanche is sub 1.5%. only 3% of people are totally burried, nothing visible, and 13% were totally buried, but the airbag was visible.

so to put the numbers meaningfully, if a skier is involved in a slide, with an airbag, they have a 16/100 chance of being buried completely. with out an airbag, statistics show that 8 out of these 16 people would die. statistics show that WITH an airbag, 1 out of these 16 people would die.

YMMV, but that, well... convinced me to get one, and ski with it basically all the time :D

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