Poison my drinking water if you must, but don't you dare make my frozen water expensive to slide on!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
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Poison my drinking water if you must, but don't you dare make my frozen water expensive to slide on!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
Do you understand that the land in question is literally adjacent to an interstate and not some pristine unspoiled habitat? And that whether or not this project gets built will have virtually no effect on the species survival of the bighorn? And the project was already approved? And the town is simply using the bighorn as a pretext to now halt the project? FFS.Quote:
Originally Posted by altasnob
Do you have any sources or is this just your assumption?Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
It actually sounds like it is a critical habitat for the gore range bighorn herd. According to a quick Google search has a winter range of around 1000 acres. The herd is down to 75-100 individuals so probably slim chances for survival if they continue to lose suitable habitat to weather the winter, which is when the herd sees the most death. Unfortunately, when they built i-70, they put it at the bottom of the valley where there's the least amount of snow in the winter and this area has now seen a lot of development over the last 20-30 years resulting in a 40% decline in the gore range bighorn sheep herd.
I've seen a lot of bighorns in Colorado around/near i-70. Used to see a lot between Silver Plume and Georgetown. And while I don't travel that stretch as much as I did 20 years ago, I haven't seen any there for quite some time. I get that humans probably see little value in land next to a major interstate (except as maybe a place to house seasonal workers to serve the rich) but sheep probably give too shits as long as there's exposed grass to munch on to get through the winter. So in short, wildlife (deer, sheep, elk, those that don't hibernate and aren't adapted for deep snow) probably don't care that some land is next to an interstate in the winter when getting food is more important than avoiding humans or potentially getting hit by a car.
What's more important: the gore range bighorn sheep herd or housing for seasonal workers to serve Vail's clientele?
The quick google search I did, the first results are the people fighting Vail Resorts, so if that is your source of info recognize that it is biased.
The land is adjacent to the interstate, that is a fact. The development was already approved, that is a fact. Vail Resorts wants to build on 5 acres of land (they own 23), that is a fact. As for whether this project will kill the bighorn sheep, or whether the town is simply using the bighorn as a pretext to now halt the project, those are not facts. But the second part, the pretext, seems very straightforward. The Town of Vail, and the wealthy homeowners adjacent to this project, didn't suddenly become staunch conservationists. The entire valley would look a lot different if they were. And if the bighorn range is now only 1000 acres, well, it used to be a lot bigger, no? And some of the people fighting this live in homes that were part of that bigger range. Why do they get a pass? And 5 acres out of 1000 is 1/2% of their habitat. Immediately next to an interstate.
Should all of that valley have been developed? Probably not. But should Vail Resorts be held accountable for all the development that came before, and be held hostage by adjacent wealthy landowners who liked their view and a town council that is fighting them over bigger issues? No.
If you want to read a different take, here's a Reason article (Reason is, of course, a libertarian anti-condemnation publication): https://reason.com/2022/10/21/colora...loyee-housing/ And this doc on page 3 has an aerial view of the whole 23 acre parcel (5 acres was approved for construction, the other 18 would be preserved for open space).
I'm in favor of protecting the sheep, for sure, but I am also very much against a government arbitrarily picking winners and losers because of the influence of some wealthy landowners (and yes, I realize the humor in calling Vail Resorts the "loser" here). And the incremental impact of this single project seems very much more of the latter than the former.
And this article from snowbrains has some good maps/pics (at the top, in the middle, and at the bottom) showing the size of the project relative to other recent ones in the same area: https://snowbrains.com/vail-resorts-...protect-sheep/
It also points out the fact that this is a pretext because this a project for affordable housing.
And this article discusses the environmental review and approval that WAS done as part of the project: https://denvergazette.com/news/busin...482c9ebf9.html
I think you must understand the tech I’m speaking of. The only way that would work is if you skied with your bros phone for the day. The bounce is off the phone SIM for verification. But, sure, you could work around that but then bro would be w/o a phone for the day. Or you’d both need to invest together in a phone and phone plane that is just to hold your shared ski pass. Seems like a lot of work to save a few bucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by This End Up
Are you a lawyer and a wildlife biologist? Because I don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to bighorn sheep and the habitat they need for survival. In fact, the largest herd of rocky mountain bighorn sheep, the Georgetown herd, utilizes land right next to I-70 all winter, making it the most popular herd in the state due to their visibility.
Why doesn't Vail build employee housing on the parcels that were approved for employee housing near lionshead in 2012? Because the land is more valuable to be sold as millionaire's mansions or made into another village strip mall of Prada and Louis Vuitton? Shit, Vail didn't even know it owned the 5 bighorn acres in question until 2016 when CODOT realized it didn't own the land but in fact Vail did....
I don't know how critical it is overall. I do know that grazing animals need large ranges to survive and habitat fragmentation and loss contributes to their decline. Regardless, bighorn sheep in the gore range and colorado are probably screwed, their population decline of the last 20 years is almost as dismal as all the other challenges they face like habitat loss. So why even bother, right?
The decision to allow Vail to build on that land didn't seem final, the council changed its mind, I think that's within their rights but of course they'll pay a bunch of lawyers a bunch of money to argue it out and the courts will ultimately decide. So that's a win for your profession.
Edit to add: your source is snowbrains lol
I am not a wildlife biologist nor have I ever represented that I was. Nor have I made legal arguments. So GTFO with that bullshit, we're two dentists arguing shit on TGR. I do know, however, that significant environmental review was done about that parcel, and when Vail did discover it owned the property, it rezoned it so that 18 of the 23 acres would be preserved; that rezoning was approved (ie they don't do that unilaterally). Other projects in the very same habitat have been approved in the interim. Those projects did not undergo the same environmental review.
And the decision Vail received was final, AFAIK. It was rescinded by the subsequent council, so in that sense it wasn't final, but my understanding is that Vail Resorts did not need additional approvals.
So if it is PURELY a "save the bighorn" thing, why now? Why, conveniently, with an affordable housing project?
If you think this is really all about the bighorn sheep* I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.
* No doubt it is all about the sheep for some environmentalists who have no skin in the game, and would prefer that nothing be developed anywhere in their habitat, and surely would have been happy if those other projects weren't approved either, but that ship sailed a long time ago.
Also, I don't know how another Timber Ridge, the infamous employee housing project in the Vail valley, truly addresses the housing crisis there? Yes, it's housing for the employees in the area, but do community members occupy such housing that put down roots and make meaningful contributions? Does anyone raise a family in timber ridge? Will this employee housing project address that need or just provide another way for Vail to keep wages low by providing housing for H1B visas and other seasonal workers that are there to party and ski?
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Well, that's an entirely different issue, and I think might be part of why there is a lot of opposition to this project.
If Vail Resorts thinks they can prevail on a detrimental reliance claims, or an improper condemnation claim, they will sue. They haven't yet. Maybe they think they will lose. Maybe they don't want to sue Town of Vail for the bad PR it would create. Maybe they think the condemnation process will give them much more than the $12 million they turned down from the city. Bottom line, there is no reason to think Vail Resorts is getting screwed or being held hostage. They have legal avenues to pursue if that is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno
Just because Town of Vail approves one house in the area, does that mean they can't ever, for the rest of time, object to other projects? Also, wouldn't a complex housing 165 people (and their associated vehicles, trash, ect.) have a bigger negative effect on sheep habitat than a McMansion that sits empty most of the year?
I understand people getting upset if a place like Denver was trying to prevent an affordable housing complex. But who cares what Vail does? It's la la land there. Just be glad there aren't 165 more vehicles getting on I-70 at that on ramp.
Thats is true. Im not savvy enough to pull this off, but somebody is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottime
Phones are cheap enough these days you could just share the phone.
^Wendover does good work.
There is really nothing new in that video for most of the people here. We know all of that. But they did a good job of presenting it for outsiders.
I did learn that Slifer Smith and Frampton is owned by Vail.
It's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
Vail owns 50%Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
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Its nice to know the word is getting out there to the rest of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
I've found Wendover great at taking a complex subject and explaining it in an entertaining, easy to understand way but without oversimplification.Quote:
Originally Posted by This End Up
Wait. Is that your project?
Does VR control East West? Curious minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
Court rules that the Town of Vail can condemn Vail Resorts approved employee housing land in East Vail in order to "save the sheep." Town to pay $12mil for starters, hearing to determine valuation is above.
Court also comments that it can't be certain that the Town acted in bad faith, that it isn't going to consider the intricacies of the Town reversing itself, that is lame that the parties brought this to court at all, and that the Town overstepped and acted inappropriately in trying to force Vail to sell.
Rather long and good writeup for a Daily article.
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/judge...-in-east-vail/
Court rules Town of Vail must pay VR 17.5M for the condemned land. The town originally offered 12M. Vail asked for 23M with a preference to just build employee housing instead. 17.5M is dead even between the numbers.
Town of Vail is paying 17.5M to keep the lot empty.
That is how much money the corporation was going to spend to build the housing on the lot!
Winner: Vail Resorts (kinda)
Loser: Everyone else
Now Vail town council has to approve the 17.5M payment to Vail Resorts. Vail Resorts again asks to be allowed to build employee housing there instead of taking payment for condemning the property.
Can Town of Vail swallow their pride for 17.5M, let VR build their own employee housing, and the town can take that 17.5M and build more affordable housing?
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah... small town politics.
More like rich town politics…
Town of Vail spends 27% of it's available funds in order to keep the hoi polloi away from the riches... ^h^h^h I mean... on an I70 adjacent sheep grazing preserve.
https://coloradosun.com/2023/10/04/v...bighorn-sheep/
That is a direct quote from a Vail council member. Quite a way to operate a Town completely interconnected with VR. I just hope the County doesn't get swindled into pitching in for the TOV's complete incompetence.Quote:
As much as I can’t stand giving those bastards in Broomfield one red cent, I’ll be voting in favor because I would rather do that than watch this herd starve to death,” Staufer said. “I want to preserve this herd for future generations and my daughter’s granddaughter.”
Don’t get your hopes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
It's like they are dying to give away $5mil. Unreal.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiBall
That town is literally NOTHING without Vail Mountain and Vail Resorts. They are completely fucked up. Remember, they allowed the nutjob IT Director to steal tons of money and run the tech for not only Vail P.D. but Eagle County Sheriff and Eagle County 911 as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
How much money does ToV make from resort tax, sales tax, parking garages and hotel tax?
That’s the number I heard. Don’t know any conditions if any.Quote:
Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark
Blank check as far as I read it:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiBall
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/eagle...t-vail-parcel/
Hopefully Timberridge redevelopment and W Middle Creek will eventually help stop talking about this parcel…if the money is there to do them. Maybe do something with that Post Office while they are at it. Something for families if they are feeling plucky.
Wow. That’s messed up
https://coloradosun.com/2022/04/20/v...dable-housing/
The artist rendering is nice. Using a small part of the lower slope for worker housing.
Most of the parcel would be sheeply.
But. This is more about the transfer tax fund. They have money in the bank. And they want to spend it.
fuck you, Vail. Gary's support of local community trail groups with his trail running series is legendary. https://garyrobbinsrun.com/blog/2023...wn-in-whistler
It continues to astound me just how many grievances a small niche sport like ultra-running has with pretty much everything.
Name a race, and I bet you there is some middle-aged, never was actually good at sports douche bitching about something related to it.
How old are you again?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
Maybe AdironRider should start working for Vail. He seems to have the right attitude. What a douchebag.
Hey a couple resident middle aged douches here to prove my point. Thanks fellas!
Prove the point that you're an ass? Glad to help!Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
Enough people who don't care as long as it doesn't affect them directly who will sign up. Hoping to get to UTMB. As long as it doesn't coincide with an Ironman. Which it won't because it's the same company. So much money sloshing around.
I hope people don't sign up, and definitely don't volunteer for a for-profit organization with predatory sketchy business tactics that view you simply as a source of revenue and nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
Surely, your ass toot sensibilities can detect that there's only 1 reference here to "bitching about something related to ultra-running".Quote:
Originally Posted by AdironRider
Granted, it may have taken a bit more acumen to detect that some of us are no longer able to be considered "middle aged", but certain short bus mistakes can be forgiven.