Title 9 is dead

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Its not the number of trans participants. It’s how good the trans athletes are. Are they overrepresented in the top 1% of their sport? If so, that would seem to point towards an unfair advantage, and that is where the issue is... E.g. Lia Thomas.

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I think that’s where it gets complicated, and why I’m glad I’m not qualified to make the rules. There’s a desire to not give a competitive advantage, but also to have inclusiveness, and I believe inclusiveness is a worthwhile goal. But I get that there’s a tension here that needs to be addressed.

[QUOTE=The AD;6913993

The public restroom "issue" is even sillier. I'm confident women are doing their business in locking stalls. What's the problem with a trans person in there?[/QUOTE]

I think the only qualified person to opine on this would be a cis-gender female. I can’t see how an adult male would have any idea. Kinda like abortion rights with men telling women what’s right/wrong.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

But you’re not talking about ‘males’ competing against females, you’re talking about transgendered females, and the bell curve for transgendered female athletic performance probably looks much different than males.

Not an expert, but I’d guess that combinations of genetics, environment, hormone therapy would lead to differences between athletic performance of a typical male vs. typical trans female, and I think it’s likely that the trans population is less likely to take part in competitive athletics at all, though that could change somewhat with greater acceptance.

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You have your terms confused. Being transgendered does not change primary biological sex. It is a gender identity trans to sex rather than identifying with a gender cis to primary biological sex.

Transwomen are not females. Transmen are females. We are talking about transwomen, that is transgendered males, competing against females in "women's sports" because they want to segregate competition categories by gender identity rather than by biology.

Male genetics, particularly having gone through male puberty, is what defines the biologically based athletic performance curves. Doing hormone therapy later does not negate this. That doesn't stop some folks as throwing hormone therapy out as a "qualifier," but doing so doesn't solve the disparity of reality.

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Originally Posted by summit

Transwomen are not females. Transmen are females.

We are talking about transwomen, that is transgendered males, competing against females.

Male genetics plus going through male puberty is what defines the athletic performance curves. Doing hormone therapy does not negate this.

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Nobody read it, but the 24 page UCI document I posted previously both supports and at times, contradicts this statement. Hemoglobin is one physiological parameter that does quickly decline with HRT to female comparative levels. Q-angles, muscle mass, and some other parameters remain in advantage of males.

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Originally Posted by summit

You have your terms confused. Being transgendered does not change biological sex. It is a gender identity trans to sex rather than identifying with a gender cis to primary biological sex.

Transwomen are not females. Transmen are females.

We are talking about transwomen, that is transgendered males, competing against females.

Male genetics plus going through male puberty is what defines the athletic performance curves. Doing hormone therapy does not negate this.

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Oh, FFS. Yes, I obviously meant trans women competing against women. And I believe the the bell curve of trans women is likely significantly different than that of males as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I think the only qualified person to opine on this would be a cis-gender female. I can’t see how an adult male would have any idea. Kinda like abortion rights with men telling women what’s right/wrong.

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Seems an awful lot like the gays in the locker room concerns everyone had.

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Originally Posted by Flounder

Title IX wasn’t created to make a fair playing field, it was created to make a playing field where one didn’t exist before. Schools were not investing in women’s sports because there was no money in it. Title IX just said if you’re taking public money you’ve got to invest in sports programs for both women and men.

To me if a school is taking public money they need to find a way to accommodate anyone that wants to play, including trans people. The whole justification of spending public education money on sports are for all benefits associated with being part of a team, competing against others and yourself, and learn about winning and losing. If this is true, everyone should have the opportunity.

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On all this we agree. The question is how to include transwomen athletes because they deserve a chance to compete if they desire. My proposal for a solution is to categorize Title IX competition categories as such:

1. Open
2. Female

No special categories for men/women, no category for males, no category for trans.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Oh, FFS. Yes, I obviously meant trans women competing against women.

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Honest, I am not trying to be pedantic though I think you may interpret me as being so. I don't doubt that you understand that sex and gender are two different, but related, concepts. Trans women competing against cis women is males competing against females.

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And I believe the the bell curve of trans women is likely significantly different than that of males as a whole.

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Why do you believe that? Even if it was different, that isn't enough. Prove that transwomen have a performance curve analogous to females. Or at least prove that it is much closer to females than to males. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't prove that because it isn't true.

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Originally Posted by summit

You believe? Why do you believe that? Even if it was different, that isn't enough. Prove that transwomen have a performance curve analogous to females. Or at least prove that it is much closer to females than to males. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't prove that because it isn't true.

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transwomen on hormone therapy will have a different bellcurve than a man, and different than that of a woman. If you could get a big enough study pool (because of the variability in "hormone therapy"), it would be interesting to see where the trans w/hormone therapy bellcurve ends up compared to the male and female bellcurves.

Are men USUALLY stronger and faster than women? Yes, but other than this.. it's still a solution looking for a problem.

Attachment 468210

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

transwomen on hormone therapy will have a different bellcurve than a man, and different than that of a woman. If you could get a big enough study pool (because of the variability in "hormone therapy"), it would be interesting to see where the trans w/hormone therapy bellcurve ends up compared to the male and female bellcurves.

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Art imitating life..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKS6h5aXLqc

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Originally Posted by Flounder

Title IX wasn’t created to make a fair playing field, it was created to make a playing field where one didn’t exist before. Schools were not investing in women’s sports because there was no money in it. Title IX just said if you’re taking public money you’ve got to invest in sports programs for both women and men.

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Interestingly, the wording of Title IX doesn't even mention sports specifically:

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No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.

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Nowadays we tend to think of it totally related to women's participation in college sports, but it is much more broad (no pun intended).

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Originally Posted by summit

MThat reality is the entire basis for sex segregated sports and Title IX. Title IX wasn't created to support individual feelings of social inclusion, but rather a fair playing field for females.

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Typing bullshit you want to believe doesn’t make it so.
[QUOTE]No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance[/QUOTE]

what’s the opposite of exclusion scummit? Is that inclusion? Does no person suggest it applies to individuals?

[QUOTE=dunfree ;6914183]Typing bullshit you want to believe doesn’t make it so.

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No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance[/QUOTE]

what’s the opposite of exclusion scummit? Is that inclusion? Does no person suggest it applies to individuals?

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SePaRaTe BuT eQuAl!!!

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Originally Posted by summit

Honest, I am not trying to be pedantic though I think you may interpret me as being so. I don't doubt that you understand that sex and gender are two different, but related, concepts. Trans women competing against cis women is males competing against females.


Why do you believe that? Even if it was different, that isn't enough. Prove that transwomen have a performance curve analogous to females. Or at least prove that it is much closer to females than to males. I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't prove that because it isn't true.

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I don’t think it needs to be true that the performance be much closer to females than males to justify letting trans women compete with women.

And as Trackhead pointed out, that advantage will vary by sport.

Final standings aren’t the only consideration here.

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On all this we agree. The question is how to include transwomen athletes because they deserve a chance to compete if they desire. My proposal for a solution is to categorize Title IX competition categories as such:

1. Open
2. Female

No special categories for men/women, no category for males, no category for trans.

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That works fine until some jackass sues over there being Trans women competing with men and somehow that diminishes the achievements or whatever.

My proposal is this.

Open category, all genders welcome. That's it. If a woman wants to play Football and can make the team? Have at it.

Its fucking College level sports and not meant to be a revenue stream for schools or athletes.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

My proposal is this.

Open category, all genders welcome. That's it.

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I don’t know what the ideal solution is, but I’m confident this isn’t it.

You have the right to that opinion.

It is sort of interesting that Title IX has been interpreted as "there needs to be as many female athletes as male athletes at each school to be in compliance."

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

You have the right to that opinion.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I think the only qualified person to opine on this would be a cis-gender female. I can’t see how an adult male would have any idea. Kinda like abortion rights with men telling women what’s right/wrong.

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i don't think you have to be a woman--cis or trans--to know that trans women need to be able to use the women's bathroom for their safety.
I've used multiperson unisex bathrooms in Europe with individual locking stalls. Didn't seem to bother anyone. But we are toaking about places where women don't shave their pits . . .

One good thing about this whole gender identity kerfluffle--it's forced Americans to learn what a pronoun is. Next lesson--adjective or adverb?

Agree every human should be able to use a restroom safely. But a locker room is fundamentally different. Being naked in an open multi-person shower is much more vulnerable position than bathroom stall.

Again, buncha dudes thinking we know what it’s like to be a women. We aren’t getting raped on a regular basis (except by teachers in the pervert thread) My wife won’t even go for a hike alone, let alone shower in public with potentially someone with male genitals. I’m not saying trans-women are perverts, but for many people a naked trans woman with male genitals would be very very uncomfortable to see at the public pool changing room.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Final standings aren’t the only consideration here.

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I'm with Her...m.

https://youtu.be/b5-iJUuPWis?si=jh09AKIQIen0-jEy

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I'm with Her...m.

https://youtu.be/b5-iJUuPWis?si=jh09AKIQIen0-jEy

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You can still play to win, to do your best. But shit, 99% of college athletes aren’t actually going to ever be in contention to ‘win’.

There’s value in having trans athletes visible, for their community, and hopefully for acceptance in society.

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Originally Posted by The AD

It is sort of interesting that Title IX has been interpreted as "there needs to be as many female athletes as male athletes at each school to be in compliance."

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the number of male athletic scholarships exceeds female by 4k, and the number of female enrolees in college exceeds males by more than that. Men are stupid and lazy, why do they deserve more?

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Are men USUALLY stronger and faster than women? Yes, but other than this.. it's still a solution looking for a problem.

Attachment 468210

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Wayyy ahead of his time. RIP

https://youtu.be/LcJSb460C6I

Attachment 468223

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

You can still play to win, to do your best. But shit, 99% of college athletes aren’t actually going to ever be in contention to ‘win’.

There’s value in having trans athletes visible, for their community, and hopefully for acceptance in society.

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And there lies the rub. 99% of women athletes in college will not be contenders to win, but 99% of transwomen athletes are. And that is unfair.


I believe (correct me if im wrong) we have specific scientific testing of prosthesis in place for amputee runners to be able to compete in running events. This is to ensure even competition. What is being requested with transwomen is similar to allowing untested prosthesis with notable performance benefits to be used.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

the number of male athletic scholarships exceeds female by 4k, and the number of female enrolees in college exceeds males by more than that. Men are stupid and lazy, why do they deserve more?

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Who said they deserve more? I just think it's an interesting interpretation of the Title IX text.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

And there lies the rub. 99% of women athletes in college will not be contenders to win, but 99% of transwomen athletes are. And that is unfair.


I believe (correct me if im wrong) we have specific scientific testing of prosthesis in place for amputee runners to be able to compete in running events. This is to ensure even competition. What is being requested with transwomen is similar to allowing untested prosthesis with notable performance benefits to be used.

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I don’t believe your assertion that 99% of trans athletes are in contention to win is correct. But again, it’s currently 32 people. Out of 260,000. If the trans athletes are automatically in the top 1%, that means they are making up less than 1.25% of that top 1%.

Fuck this thread.
Wish it stayed deleted.

Im about to cunt it up so it gets moved or deleted again.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

I don’t believe your assertion that 99% of trans athletes are in contention to win is correct. But again, it’s currently 32 people. Out of 260,000. If the trans athletes are automatically in the top 1%, that means they are making up less than 1.25% of that top 1%.

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It's unfair. It's also not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Fuck this thread.
Wish it stayed deleted.

Im about to cunt it up so it gets moved or deleted again.

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Yep.

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Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Fuck this thread.
Wish it stayed deleted.

Im about to cunt it up so it gets moved or deleted again.

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That's a hall of shame worthy post.

Discussion is verboten because you don't like it? Who do you think you are? Nobody forcing you to click on this, ya JONG ;)

Report it. You see the little icon, bottom left. Complain to the Mods that it does not belong in PR, I did.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

It's unfair. It's also not a big deal.

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Pretty much. I think they should try and balance the fairness with acceptance as best they can. I’d err towards acceptance because it’s not going to be a big deal regardless.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Report it. You see the little icon, bottom left. Complain to the Mods that it does not belong in PR, I did.

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Really nancy boy?

I deleted it once. Because it got off the rails.
But it never went polyass.
Controversial?
Yes.
Politics?
No.

Grow a pair. Or cut your pair off.

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Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Pretty much. I think they should try and balance the fairness with acceptance as best they can. I’d err towards acceptance because it’s not going to be a big deal regardless.

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I'd err on the side of fairness because it's not a big deal. But I also won't lose sleep if they dont

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Originally Posted by The AD

Who said they deserve more? I just think it's an interesting interpretation of the Title IX text.

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If it’s supposed to be representational the number of women enrolled exceeding the men does glory days. I mean, this is a fucking ski board, and skiing has wonderful realms for solo athletic acheivements if you want them

anyways, californiagrown you propaganda swallowing dumbfuck, get raped by a chainsaw with your next byates gangbang

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Originally Posted by summit

That's a hall of shame worthy post.

Discussion is verboten because you don't like it? Who do you think you are? Nobody forcing you to click on this, ya JONG ;)

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Awesome. I win.
And fuck this thread.
Doesn’t belong here, get it the fuck out.
Absolutely nothing good could ever come from you fucks debating about something you know nothing about.