2019 4frnt Renegade Changes?

So glad to hear these are rolling in and they are stiff enough that people are giving them a shot. Looking forward to more reviews from in the snow.

Another vote for the EHP redux - 190 cm sounds great to me!

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Originally Posted by Self Jupiter

That would be an amazing ski. Shape of the 186, 190 length, Praxis build.

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I think I'd buy that. Someone make Keith do it, available for the pre-sale.

I decided to order a pair of hojis since there was the holiday bundle deal, got hojis and pair of pivot 12 for 499. 100 less then what I paid for the renegade.
I haven’t returned the renegade yet. Wanted to compare the two. The core width of the ski is very noticeable. I’m guessing that is from different base and edges. But the hoji came in at 13 to 13.5 mm not including the micro cap, where the renegade measures only 10.5 mm.
The renegade weighed in at 1873 g/1895g.
The hojis weighed 1982g/1952g.
The hojis are much stiffer. Especially in the tail. The renegades feel like under foot are stiff softening slightly in the tip but pretty soft tail on them. Where the hojis hold their stiffness throughout with they’ll getting softer after mid section.
I was hoping to ride them very soon. But just broke my thumb and need surgery. Bummer as B.C. is getting the goods!
I would love to hear other reviews of people getting on the renegades. And even the new hojis.

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Originally Posted by powderslave

I decided to order a pair of hojis since there was the holiday bundle deal, got hojis and pair of pivot 12 for 499. 100 less then what I paid for the renegade.
I haven’t returned the renegade yet. Wanted to compare the two. The core width of the ski is very noticeable. I’m guessing that is from different base and edges. But the hoji came in at 13 to 13.5 mm not including the micro cap, where the renegade measures only 10.5 mm.
The renegade weighed in at 1873 g/1895g.
The hojis weighed 1982g/1952g.
The hojis are much stiffer. Especially in the tail. The renegades feel like under foot are stiff softening slightly in the tip but pretty soft tail on them. Where the hojis hold their stiffness throughout with they’ll getting softer after mid section.
I was hoping to ride them very soon. But just broke my thumb and need surgery. Bummer as B.C. is getting the goods!
I would love to hear other reviews of people getting on the renegades. And even the new hojis.

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thanks for the info. Does anyone know if the new hojis are same same as the old hojis? I beleive they are, but not certain.
I personally found my older hojis to be noticeably softer and mellower ski than my older Renegades. FWIW. still a great ski though and I kinda regret getting rid of them.

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Originally Posted by powderslave

The core width of the ski is very noticeable. I’m guessing that is from different base and edges. But the hoji came in at 13 to 13.5 mm not including the micro cap, where the renegade measures only 10.5 mm.
The renegade weighed in at 1873 g/1895g.
The hojis weighed 1982g/1952g.
The hojis are much stiffer. Especially in the tail. The renegades feel like under foot are stiff softening slightly in the tip but pretty soft tail on them. Where the hojis hold their stiffness throughout with they’ll getting softer after mid section.

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Le sigh.

What length Hoji/Ren?

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Originally Posted by Judo Chop!

thanks for the info. Does anyone know if the new hojis are same same as the old hojis? I beleive they are, but not certain.
I personally found my older hojis to be noticeably softer and mellower ski than my older Renegades. FWIW. still a great ski though and I kinda regret getting rid of them.

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I think I'm around your size and agree re: Renegade/Hoji... I had the OG Renegades (2011) and now the black/green 2016ish both 186cm. Also have the 2013 Hoji (Pilsner) 187cm. My 2016 Renegades are around 2300g/ski and I had a fucking blast ripping around Whistler on them the past week, just a perfect ski for everything from trees to chutes to going fast in open bowls. Even fun to carve on slushy warm ski-outs back to the village. I just can't wrap my head around each ski being a pound lighter (~20%) and skiing the same, 1875g at those dimensions just doesn't add up when I think of my buddy's 186cm Volkl BMT109's at 1730g 134-109-119 and how damn light they are.

Hoping to be proven wrong by some reviews... two ski quivver of heavier Renegade/lighter Hoji both with Shifts would be great for my ski needs.

184 renegade and 187 hoji

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Originally Posted by powderslave

I decided to order a pair of hojis since there was the holiday bundle deal, got hojis and pair of pivot 12 for 499. 100 less then what I paid for the renegade.
I haven’t returned the renegade yet. Wanted to compare the two. The core width of the ski is very noticeable. I’m guessing that is from different base and edges. But the hoji came in at 13 to 13.5 mm not including the micro cap, where the renegade measures only 10.5 mm.
The renegade weighed in at 1873 g/1895g.
The hojis weighed 1982g/1952g.
The hojis are much stiffer. Especially in the tail. The renegades feel like under foot are stiff softening slightly in the tip but pretty soft tail on them. Where the hojis hold their stiffness throughout with they’ll getting softer after mid section.
I was hoping to ride them very soon. But just broke my thumb and need surgery. Bummer as B.C. is getting the goods!
I would love to hear other reviews of people getting on the renegades. And even the new hojis.

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This is exactly what so many of us were fearing. I like my hojis but they’re an easy skiing ski. They can handle steep terrain but by no means are they absolute shredders like og rens. Soft tails is the worst thing I’ve heard yet. Probably make for a great meadow skipper. Hopefully 4frnt rectifies this on the next run.


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Interesting to find that the Bastard Renegades are softer than the Hojis. Curious to hear the first review of someone who skis them in the resort on a classic big pow day that turns to chop.

At any rate, if someone is looking for some older green/white Renegades (186cm), there is a pair at 2nd Tracks in SLC for $450 with bindings as of yesterday. Looked to be in excellent shape.

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...05&oe=5CA66AB9

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...9b&oe=5CA6D8C0

And also this pair for $350 in SLC from a mag. Mounted once for kingpins at 326 BSL.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...4frnt-Renegade

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Originally Posted by crashidy

Outside bike and ski in canmore,ab has a pair of unmounted 196 black and green. 500$ cad.

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Not anymore. Time to replace the OG raven topsheets.

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Originally Posted by flatland

Not anymore. Time to replace the OG raven topsheets.

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Nice.

Just heard a rumor that 4frnt is changing the devestator to. No idea on lengths or dimensions. But no more reflect tech, flat under foot. Devestator is one of the very best daily drivers on the market. Lame that is getting changed. Been a loyal 4frnt skier for a while and always really appreciated that they didn't change skis just to change then. Now they've changed 2 of my favorite skis. Might have to switch to another brand.


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give it a go before writing them off no, and if all else fails, perhaps ask Blister to perform another Bibby stunt? #ifallelsefails

While the road to an inferior product sometimes is riddled by good intentions, sometimes they also - you know - succeed and make something good even better. ON3P did so with their Wrenegade according to most folks, so 4FRNT might be able to pull it off too. After this Renegade-debacle I would rest assured that they are seeking to avoid a repeat ;)

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Originally Posted by altacoup

Just heard a rumor that 4frnt is changing the devestator to.
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Noooooooooo. Time to hoard another pair or two.


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Originally Posted by PlayItLeo

Noooooooooo. Time to hoard another pair or two.


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Oh shit. If they make a 190 and don't change anything else about the ski then count me in. Otherwise, hell no!


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Originally Posted by kid-kapow

give it a go before writing them off no, and if all else fails, perhaps ask Blister to perform another Bibby stunt? #ifallelsefails

While the road to an inferior product sometimes is riddled by good intentions, sometimes they also - you know - succeed and make something good even better. ON3P did so with their Wrenegade according to most folks, so 4FRNT might be able to pull it off too. After this Renegade-debacle I would rest assured that they are seeking to avoid a repeat ;)

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After this renegade debacle I have low confidence that the new devestator will be good. The current 184 is a great DD. While the 194 is the best chopped up snow ski ever. My guess is that they dumb down the 194 and make both lighter. I really hate this trend of making everything lighter. Rossi is a great example of a company that was making great skis. Sickle and squad 7. Then they went to the air tip construction and now they're skis are crap. Sure they moved a ton of soul 7s but they lost customers who liked other designs. I understand that 4frnt need to capture sales to a different audience. Well then make a ski for that audience. And continue to make the skis that have made the brand what it is. Pretty much zero confidence in jlev.


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You can preach to the choir... but that doesn't keep a company alive.

Here's me... a guy who bought a Renegade in 2013 and is still raving about it. Meaning-- I'm not a repeat buyer.

Get it? We're not keeping the company afloat, dawg.

They're going to change the ski. They're going to change all the skis.

If you want to do the designers any favors, then stop bitching on the internet chat forums about how much they suck.

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Originally Posted by gaijin

You can preach to the choir... but that doesn't keep a company alive.

Here's me... a guy who bought a Renegade in 2013 and is still raving about it. Meaning-- I'm not a repeat buyer.

Get it? We're not keeping the company afloat, dawg.

They're going to change the ski. They're going to change all the skis.

If you want to do the designers any favors, then stop bitching on the internet chat forums about how much they suck.

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This.

Turning a company around is brutal work. Without that effort, I don’t think this thread would exist. I actually got a chance to chat with JLev last year when he was scrambling around for cash just to get the year’s production run. We might not like it, but it isn’t charity work, man’s got to pay debts, and to do that, he has to sell skis.

If someone wants to loan him the money for next year’s production run, maybe he’d be happy to bring back old designs? But you might not get all your money back...

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Originally Posted by altacoup

After this renegade debacle I have low confidence that the new devestator will be good. The current 184 is a great DD. While the 194 is the best chopped up snow ski ever. My guess is that they dumb down the 194 and make both lighter. I really hate this trend of making everything lighter. Rossi is a great example of a company that was making great skis. Sickle and squad 7. Then they went to the air tip construction and now they're skis are crap. Sure they moved a ton of soul 7s but they lost customers who liked other designs. I understand that 4frnt need to capture sales to a different audience. Well then make a ski for that audience. And continue to make the skis that have made the brand what it is. Pretty much zero confidence in jlev.


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Bwahahaa. So every ski company should always make your favorite models as is forever? Or would you prefer they just consult you before changing them?


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^^^ I've stated here many times that what I really appreciated about 4frnt is that they kept to their designs. My solution will be to buy the skis on the market that I like simple as that. Right now I like 4frnt. I have 8 pairs currently. I'll probably pick up another 194 devestator. But I have zero confidence in jlev.


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JLev said 4FRNT had no $ when he took over - what would you do in his shoes? Double down on the same skis year in and year out selling less and less of them?

(My comments have nothing to do with the renegade screw up - that seems like a legit manufacturing error)


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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

JLev said 4FRNT had no $ when he took over - what would you do in his shoes? Double down on the same skis year in and year out selling less and less of them?

(My comments have nothing to do with the renegade screw up - that seems like a legit manufacturing error)


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That's assuming the skis were the reason for 4frnt underperforming financially. Hard to believe that was the problem. They make great skiis for pros and beginners. The arethra is one of the easiest to ski women's ski in existence, IMHO.

I'd be delighted if they make a 190 devastator. While mainting the dampness.

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Even if the skis weren’t the issue you still have to change and update your models every few years.


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Summary of this thread:

One side critisizes 4FRNT for Bastard Renegade questioning new ownership.

One side defends 4FRNT on all accounts like SJW’s defending Oprah.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

Even if the skis weren’t the issue you still have to change and update your models every few years.


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My point has always been that what really set 4frnt apart and in my opinion made them my preferred ski company is that they didn't update stuff every few years just for the sake of updating. I see jlev moving 4frnt in the direction of the big name ski companies. Maybe it'll work. But I doubt it. He loses core buyers but has to compete with the big boys for soul 7, qst 106 sales. That's a tough one. My point is that 4frnt should continue making their great skis and develop some other models to compete with the big boys. But more realistically his goal is to shore up the brand to sell it.


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Devastators are now, what, 6 years old? That’s a pretty good run for a ski. Tech and styles have changed a lot since then. I assume their athletes are the ones driving the updates still.

^^^
True. If it's truly athlete driven I'd be behind it even if in the end I don't like the ski. I could envision a flat surface being better for jibbing than reflect tech. Personally I'm a huge fan of reflect tech. All the 4frnt skis with this tech ski really well, even if numbers of sidecut to rocker don't anyways match exactly. I really want to see 4frnt succeed. I'm just worried about jlevs goals and intentions.


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Cheap 194 Devs on CL in Minneapolis:

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/h...759179140.html

^^^
Thanks


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I'd like to find a daily driver to replace a first-gen 185 Cochise. Is the Dev the closest thing out there? Even without metal?

Also, figured this repost was useful because it shows JLev's thinking and why 4FRNT was not profitable. Makes sense to have a niche/TGR product as part of a bigger portfolio (e.g., Line). Make the mass-market skis under one brand, and the core product under another. If I were betting, I would wager it won't be long before J Skis and 4FRNT are either integrated similarly, and/or sold as a package to a big conglomerate. Business is a motherfucker.

On that note, NO idea how on earth Praxis survives. Catering to custom orders must be a HUGE time-suck, and the skis really aren't that expensive given the quality and custom orders.

Reposted from the Sterbenz gone thread, after I kindly told JLev I would step in as CEO of 4FRNT.

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Originally Posted by JLev

Instead of demo, both brands have 100% Money Back Gaurantee. If you don't like product for any reason after few days of use, return them for a full refund or swap out for different size, model. Very few demo centers, link at footer of websites

I give full attention to both equally just like proved was possible when I was running Full Tilt & Line skis. It's in my best interest as the owner and my income coming from both. I also work with the best in the business who's personal perspective, skills, skiing interest, and experience perfectly match the unique aspects of each brand they drive, no employee of one would ever work for the other, they wouldn't fit the brand's position.

I make sure the brands make smart decisions that not only perfectly fit the brand's unique DNA and heritage but also keep them financially sustainable. I've spent over 23 years making mistakes in the ski industry, so although some of my decisions are nontraditional, they're all based on not making the same mistake twice.

The reason we're having this conversation is because 4FRNT is still in business. The reason I own it is because it may not have otherwise been without leveraging my ecommerce experience. (Matt clearly states in interviews that it's been unprofitable for 15 years). No fault of his, the traditional retail business model simply does not work when selling less than 30k pr skis per yr. 4FRNT hit it's glass ceiling selling approx 4,000 pair through retailers and distributors. I hit same glass ceiling when I owned Line, and 15 yrs into it sold to K2 to gain their resources and keep it in business.

So... you can't expect things to change without making a change.

Regarding difference, they couldn't be more different brands. Only thing shared is being small independent, and their back-end operations.

ATITTUDE
J = wild style, creative, make fun of ourselves & sport, sarcastic, tongue and cheek humor, don't care what others think, expect the unexpected
4FRNT = Technical, seek and explore, deep conversation and story telling, knowledge is power to have more fun

IMAGE
J = freestyle, young, more fun
4FRNT = freeride, experienced, more adventure

PRODUCT
J = Award winning products designed by a real person you know and trust, Jason Levinthal. Backed by decades of credibility, hundreds of thousands of skiers own and love JLev's products. All skis camber with rocker tips, mostly twin tip, deep sidecut, for most versatile equal firm and soft snow performance.
4FRNT = Award winning products designed by real pros you know and trust, Hoji, Thayne, and rest of powder hound team who's ideas and actual hands on involvement guarantee best performance and reliability possible. Some camber with rocker tips but many pow skis feature proprietary reverse camber geometry and flatter tails for optimized powder & touring performance, with firm snow less priority.

ONE-OF-A-KIND
J = All skis built in Limited Edition graphic qtys. Collabs w artists, each hand signed & numbered by JLev, you have ski like no one else.
4FRNT = All skis sold under $599 "capped pricing" enables skiers to get the skis they want instead of the ski they can afford by cutting out the middle man selling direct... skiers get more for their money!

CUSTOMER
J = Young at heart, eager to stand out from the rest, fun is most important, mostly in bounds resort terrain
4FRNT = Experienced, eager to earn turns for optimal downhill pow fun, mostly backcountry adventurous terrain

TOP SALES TERRITORIES
J = #1 Colorado, #2 VT, #10 Utah
4FRNT = #1 Colorado, #2 Utah, #10 Vermont

There's dozens more points of differentiation but let me know what you think for starts after visiting the websites 4FRNT.com (we just completely redesigned and Matt and rest of team is extremely proud) & Jskis.com. Also I hope our actions speak will speak more than words demonstrating the strong and authentic differentiation of the two brands, just as you'd see from any other strong and unique brands on the market.

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More reviews, plz.

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Originally Posted by altacoup

My point has always been that what really set 4frnt apart and in my opinion made them my preferred ski company is that they didn't update stuff every few years just for the sake of updating. I see jlev moving 4frnt in the direction of the big name ski companies. Maybe it'll work. But I doubt it. He loses core buyers but has to compete with the big boys for soul 7, qst 106 sales. That's a tough one. My point is that 4frnt should continue making their great skis and develop some other models to compete with the big boys. But more realistically his goal is to shore up the brand to sell it.


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Funny that you think Jlev, the one who has constantly challenged mainstream ski culture, is going mainstream and dumbing down product. Sure 4FRNT and whoever else is responsible for the Bastard Ren screwed up this year, whether that is a manufacturing issue or silly mistakes made by management, and created a product that is totally different that what we expected but shit happens. We've seen this in other companies and we will see it again. THis is the nature of manufacturing. If we ignore this mistake, would we be questioning anything else that the company is doing? Let's give them a chance here and let them fix their screw up this year. The only people that have ACTUALLY skied the Ren this year didn't have terrible reviews, so if you haven't been on them don't talk down on em. If you don't want a one off playful Ren then don't buy it this year, ski the ones you have, and wait for their attempt to fix it for next year. Don't waste the time to smash the proto Dev and claim that 4FRNT is turning into Soul7's before we've seen anything else. The rest of the product for this season hasn't been dumbed down or Soul7'd so lets let the gd renegade debacle rest!

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Originally Posted by sammyk

Funny that you think Jlev, the one who has constantly challenged mainstream ski culture, is going mainstream and dumbing down product. Sure 4FRNT and whoever else is responsible for the Bastard Ren screwed up this year, whether that is a manufacturing issue or silly mistakes made by management, and created a product that is totally different that what we expected but shit happens. We've seen this in other companies and we will see it again. THis is the nature of manufacturing. If we ignore this mistake, would we be questioning anything else that the company is doing? Let's give them a chance here and let them fix their screw up this year. The only people that have ACTUALLY skied the Ren this year didn't have terrible reviews, so if you haven't been on them don't talk down on em. If you don't want a one off playful Ren then don't buy it this year, ski the ones you have, and wait for their attempt to fix it for next year. Don't waste the time to smash the proto Dev and claim that 4FRNT is turning into Soul7's before we've seen anything else. The rest of the product for this season hasn't been dumbed down or Soul7'd so lets let the gd renegade debacle rest!

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Panties in a wad?

This forum is full of people theorizing. It is what it is. Get over it or go find a “safe space.”

I'll be returning mine

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Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South

Panties in a wad?

This forum is full of people theorizing. It is what it is. Get over it or go find a “safe space.”

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Jeez man.

No panties in a wad on his part from my perspective. His reply is one of the more sensible ones in this thread. I might add, way more sensible that what has been written some other individuals that are seemingly claiming to understand what JLev's vision with 4FRNT is better than the people involved in the brand does - based on a very, very short history with the brand or indeed the sport.

Sure, poeple can use their own inherent abilities at creating patterns where there is none, supported and reinforced by a healthy dose of confirmation bias, but that does not make their findings any more true.

That some people get a bit fed up with unfounded negativity based on one faux pas by the guy who is trying to keep the brand alive, is no reason to reply using the retorical domineering techniques you are trying to pull off. Then again, that kind of retorical devices are usually seen through pretty easily and mostly reflects badly on the person using it, not the receiver - though too many of that kinds of posts just makes the people who have actual knowledge to emaprt/contribute think twice about being on the forum.

And besides - for those who feel this year's iteration of the Renegade is too soft, you should chec out the Inthaynes. They have been getting stellar reviews in its thread here on TGR :)

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Originally Posted by meter-man

I'd like to find a daily driver to replace a first-gen 185 Cochise. Is the Dev the closest thing out there? Even without metal?
aT.

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Check out blisters review of dev. Pretty spot on. Very different than cochise. In ski the dev more often than any other ski i own but they are pretty unique skiis.



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Originally Posted by meter-man

I'd like to find a daily driver to replace a first-gen 185 Cochise. Is the Dev the closest thing out there? Even without metal?

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I have owned 184 and 194 Dev and 185 OG Cochise. I mount the Devs -1cm back from recommended and had the Cochise on the line. 5’7’’ 195, 32. 10ish years ago I preferred Stockli chargers, and now I greatly prefer newer-school designs for anything but groomers and carving.

The Cochise is quite different from the devs, and for whatever reason I was surprised by that. I did not fool with the tuning of the ski, but they were freshly tuned by a shop and seemed fine.

The 184 Dev is much less ski than a 185 Cochise, the 194 Dev feels like more of a real comparison. I prefer the Dev in almost every way, but I’ve been on Hoji designs for a decade. Finding that I needed an adjustment skiing the Cochise just ruled them out for me, so YMMV. But I think the 194 Dev charges harder, is capable of more turn shapes and responds to different ski styles better, is more fun in the air and a far better carver and groomer ski than the OG Cochise. 194 Dev is superior in powder (more float, looser). and is the best mank/heavy spring snow type ski I’ve ever used by a long mark. The Cochise returned more energy —- I was beginning to get the hang of fun energy return thru the tail of the ski. The Devs don’t return a ton of energy out of the turn, but they return some and they’re so easy to ski otherwise that I’m OK with that. Downside to the 194 Dev is that they’re heavy as F, huge, and tire my legs out after a few days in a row on them. But they never really feel tough to ski.

I keep the 184 around for EC tree skiing and when I’m feeling tired / injured / lazy. Worth noting the tape pull measurement of each of these Devs is 181.5 and 191.5ish cms.

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Originally Posted by skinipenem

Check out blisters review of dev. Pretty spot on. Very different than cochise. In ski the dev more often than any other ski i own but they are pretty unique skiis.



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Very unique ski. I too grab the Dev very often as long as it’s soft. Firm conditions I grab the MSP.