The Nation Courts Amazon for HQ2

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11-14-2018, 09:55 AM
FLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunfree

Man can AMZN play the media though.

Couldn't be corporate mass media playing the citizens...nahhh.
11-14-2018, 09:56 AM
dunfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by shredgnar

Did you read the rest of the post?

Again: How is offering someone money to do what they were going to do anyway a good deal for you?

edit: and "tech worker" is a useless term these days. It's just someone who works at a "tech company" which is a uselessly broad term now.
11-14-2018, 09:57 AM
skaredshtles

Quote:

Originally Posted by shredgnar

Because no one wants to work in Detroit and the public dissatisfaction is a minor, short term negative. Having to constantly try to lure tech workers to Detroit through higher wages and benefits would cost a lot more over time.

Yup. MI sucks. And Detroit sucks even more. I can't even imagine trying to "lure" people to move there.

Except perhaps stoners now.

:D
11-14-2018, 09:58 AM
FLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by shredgnar

In my town, they prefer to give tax breaks to big box stores who will put local shops out of business. In my opinion, that's way shittier than what is going on here.

Umm... Maybe you could open up a restaurant near one of those big box stores.
11-14-2018, 10:09 AM
stuckathuntermtn

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

Yup. This stunt is definitely not helping it from a PR aspect. Another thing I found distasteful is that they placed them in locations that already have massively big economies rather than cities that desperately needed a shot in the arm. Think of all the places in the "Rust Belt" that could have used those jobs, infrastructure improvements, and cash influx. The construction costs in NYC and DC area have to be so astronomical compared to the depressed Midwest areas that you would think would easily negate any government subsidies NYC/VA could offer. HQ2 could have been a great thing for places like Flint or Detroit, MI. No local government pandering necessary. Why on earth does ANYBODY believe that multimillion dollar government grants needs to go a trillion dollar company? NYC gave them a $325 million cash development grant; Virginia gave them $573 million in cash grants. It's ludicrous! How ANYBODY believes this is acceptable is beyond me. I hate megacorporate cronyism with a passion. I was a victim of it recently on a much smaller scale of course. If you're a bigger company in cahoots with the guys in charge? "Awesome! Have some taxpayer money!" If you're a little guy like me? It's "Piss off, peasant. We'll squash you like the little bug you are. No competition allowed in this town."

Do you finally understand why government regulations, especially anti-trust laws, are important?
Companies can get so big now, it's easy for them to just put the thumb on the scales.
Competition? Taxes? High wages? Customer satisfaction? A modicum of responsibility or ethics? What's that?
11-14-2018, 10:11 AM
summit

Quote:

Originally Posted by shredgnar

In my town, they prefer to give tax breaks to big box stores who will put local shops out of business. In my opinion, that's way shittier than what is going on here.

Yep... literally small towns fucking over their local businesses so that the next small town 5 minutes away doesn't get that extra sales tax income (eventually... after the 5 year giveaway expires).

Rest of your post is spot on. This is corporate welfare in that localities are willing to compete using taxpayer money giveaways for a potential long-term tax gain at the cost of hurting their own citizens and businesses, at least in the short term, and some certainly in the long term.

The only solution I see is some sort of law regulating such practices, but I kind of doubt that lobbyists would let something like that pass as long as the Dems and Repubs call the shots.

Outrage is easy. Delayed consequences rarely deter politicians. Legislation restricting government handouts to industry is hard.

Those expressing outrage should carefully consider how this is just a slightly different version of using taxpayer money to subsidize housing for workers whose employers underpay them so they can't afford to live where they work rather than letting the market force said employer to pay enough to attract employees. (e.g. Vail Resorts and "workforce housing")
11-14-2018, 10:19 AM
Name Redacted

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunfree

Again: How is offering someone money to do what they were going to do anyway a good deal for you?

edit: and "tech worker" is a useless term these days. It's just someone who works at a "tech company" which is a uselessly broad term now.

OK, highly skilled employee. They aren't that easy to come by.

And you give incentives for the company to move to your city instead of the next city, who is probably offering an incentive as well.

Denver offered little to no incentives AFAIK and viola! No Amazon.
11-14-2018, 10:23 AM
phatty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

Prepare to be surprised.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...er/1987289002/

I would actually prefer 5000 80k a year salaries as that group would have more renters in it.

Wow. That's very surprising they would expect to have the same average pay in Nashville as in DC/NYC.
11-14-2018, 10:30 AM
dunfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by shredgnar

And you give incentives for the company to move to your city instead of the next city, who is probably offering an incentive as well.

Maryland offered $5 billion. Virginia offered $500 million. AMZN chose Virginia. Explain to me why Virginia needed to offer anything.
11-14-2018, 10:34 AM
phatty

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunfree

Again: How is offering someone money to do what they were going to do anyway a good deal for you?

Because they weren't going to do it at the scale of this deal. While they have a large presence there now, that doesn't mean it would continue. Now Amazon is contractually committed to bring those jobs and construction. If they don't, the cities don't pay the money. They aren't writing an upfront check here. It's paid out over a ~20 year period.
11-14-2018, 10:56 AM
Benny Profane

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLS

Umm... Maybe you could open up a restaurant near one of those big box stores.

Um, imagine your clientele. I would suggest deep fried everything, on a stick, and no dress code.
11-14-2018, 10:58 AM
Benny Profane

Note how this announcement for NY came after the election. No way would Cuomo want that on his record as the subways slowly die.
11-14-2018, 11:05 AM
Dantheman

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceman

There's a good piece by Bryce Covert on today's NY Times op-ed page, I can't find it online for some reason but his point is that everyone should hate this deal, conservatives, liberals, Dems, Reps, Libertarian, everybody but Amazon.

Considering that a Grover Norquist-style view of tax policy is now a litmus test for conservatives/Republicans/Libertarians, they should be fine with it. Ostensibly liberal/Democratic states should be ashamed of themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summit

The only solution I see is some sort of law regulating such practices, but I kind of doubt that lobbyists would let something like that pass as long as the Dems and Repubs call the shots.

Fox News talking heads would have a conniption of epic proportions if Democrats even suggested passing a law limiting corporate tax incentives nation-wide. It would be a sight to see.
11-14-2018, 11:16 AM
Dromond

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skidog

It's actually gone crazy in the last 5 years. Adding roughly 20k residents. Median home value up around 1mil and avg age between 20-44 bachelor's degree or higher. The Amazon hq will surely speed things up even more.

What still surprised me was the avg income out of the 2 hqs 150k avg. 50k jobs between the 2. Roughly 7.5billion in salary alone. Lots of chiefs, not too many Indians.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

Is the median home value really near 1mil? That’s higher than Seattle. The NY HQ seems to complicate the “Amazon is leaving because it’s too expensive and the traffic is too bad” narrative.
11-14-2018, 11:19 AM
Benny Profane

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dromond

Is the median home value really near 1mil? That’s higher than Seattle. The NY HQ seems to complicate the “Amazon is leaving because it’s too expensive and the traffic is too bad” narrative.

Ha, yeah, those kids better be making 150000+, because they're going to be spending a shitload of money on crappy little apartments and monthly parking.
11-14-2018, 11:21 AM
skaredshtles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Ha, yeah, those kids better be making 150000+, because they're going to be spending a shitload of money on crappy little apartments and monthly parking.

Come on, man... "kids" these days don't own cars. :D
11-14-2018, 11:24 AM
reckless toboggan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Ha, yeah, those kids better be making 150000+, because they're going to be spending a shitload of money on crappy little apartments and monthly parking.

Making $150k doesn't get you far in NYC.

Making $150k gets you a pretty swank lifestyle in many other places that Amazon rejected.

That could have been a big part of the employee incentive for the other locations...locations that actually match the criteria that Amazon literally spelled out it it's own search criteria.
11-14-2018, 11:27 AM
Benny Profane

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

Making $150k doesn't get you far in NYC.

Making $150k gets you a pretty swank lifestyle in many other places that Amazon rejected.

That could have been a big part of the employee incentive.

Nah, those kids want to be in big cities that are happening. Not Boise or even Philly. But, bottom line, as always, it's where Bezos wants to spend his time. Like the whole migration of corporations out if NYC last century. The top guys wanted to drive to their golf courses.
11-14-2018, 11:32 AM
PNWbrit

He doesn't golf.
11-14-2018, 11:36 AM
MontuckyFried

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dromond

The NY HQ seems to complicate the “Amazon is leaving because it’s too expensive and the traffic is too bad” narrative.

That's precisely the thing that leaves me scratching my head. Seems that a NYC location would be a logistical nightmare and crazy expensive, which leaves the ultimate conclusion of some serious backroom deals and under-desk action.

I don't buy it that it's all about the talent pool. Several of my local tech buddies who are software engineers and computer scientists in high positions at good companies have unanimously told me that if they got picked up by Google, Amazon or any of the other tech giants, that they would drop everything and move WHEREVER the company told them they needed them. They could have built in freaking Nebraska for all people care. These companies have no problem attracting top talent. They could have skipped all the tax breaks and built in a cheaper place, that would have also been super easy to build, expand, and move around. I think it's REALLY because Amazon wants the notoriety, attention, and intermingling of being in places like NYC and DC. NYC for the aesthetic appeal (good hipster street cred being around Queens, right?). DC for the elbow rubbing. There's a reason they ended up taking this two-pronged approach. It's super slimey.
11-14-2018, 11:37 AM
Benny Profane

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

He doesn't golf.

I know. That's why he picked LIC. If he did, he'd be up here in golf land.
11-14-2018, 11:38 AM
reckless toboggan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Nah, those kids want to be in big cities that are happening. Not Boise or even Philly. But, bottom line, as always, it's where Bezos wants to spend his time. Like the whole migration of corporations out if NYC last century. The top guys wanted to drive to their golf courses.

If Amazon is the king of marketing and manipulation, then it could easily convince millenials that Detroit is the new New York.

And fucking Nashville?!? Amazon is moving shit to Nashville. If they can convince people to move to Nashville, they can convince people to move pretty much anywhere.
11-14-2018, 11:40 AM
reckless toboggan

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

That's precisely the thing that leaves me scratching my head. Seems that a NYC location would be a logistical nightmare and crazy expensive, which leaves the ultimate conclusion of some serious backroom deals and under-desk action.

I don't buy it that it's all about the talent pool. Several of my local tech buddies who are software engineers and computer scientists in high positions at good companies have unanimously told me that if they got picked up by Google, Amazon or any of the other tech giants, that they would drop everything and move WHEREVER the company told them they needed them. They could have built in freaking Nebraska for all people care. These companies have no problem attracting top talent. They could have skipped all the tax breaks and built in a cheaper place, that would have also been super easy to build, expand, and move around. I think it's REALLY because Amazon wants the notoriety, attention, and intermingling of being in places like NYC and DC. NYC for the aesthetic appeal (good hipster street cred being around Queens, right?). DC for the elbow rubbing. There's a reason they ended up taking this two-pronged approach. It's super slimey.

Exactly this. All of it.

Holy fuck. I actually am agreeing with AustinFromSA. If Amazon can make me agree with AustinFromSA, then anything is possible.
11-14-2018, 11:40 AM
skaredshtles

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

<snip>
I don't buy it that it's all about the talent pool. Several of my local tech buddies who are software engineers and computer scientists in high positions at good companies have unanimously told me that if they got picked up by Google, Amazon or any of the other tech giants, that they would drop everything and move WHEREVER the company told them they needed them. They could have built in freaking Nebraska for all people care.

Most old fucks from your (and my) generation are generally all caught up in "career" bullshit.

A lot of younger folks aren't. Mainly because career bullshit, from my experience, generally sucks.

I wouldn't move to Nebraska to work for ANYONE. FTS.
11-14-2018, 11:41 AM
Benny Profane

Nashville is pretty cool these days, attracts a lot of young people from the middle of the country, is centrally located, and is home to FedEx, which is a delivery service of Amazon these days. I'd live there if I had to.

I fail to see how Amazon is a leader in marketing, BTW. Maybe super low cost and convenient retail, but, marketing?
11-14-2018, 11:42 AM
FLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceman

There's a good piece by Bryce Covert on today's NY Times op-ed page, I can't find it online for some reason but his point is that everyone should hate this deal, conservatives, liberals, Dems, Reps, Libertarian, everybody but Amazon. It's crazy, the giveaways to a single company. Worse than the damn NFL and that's saying something.

This?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/o...q2-winner.html
11-14-2018, 11:43 AM
summit

NPR pointed out that Amazon chose the financial and political capitals for their new HQs.
11-14-2018, 11:45 AM
DBdude

I haven't been in seattle in 15 years and I know it has really changed for what many would consider for the worst. I would take seattle over NY or DC in a second as an employee. I would never leave seattle for either DC or NY. There is a lot of technical talent in NY and DC and maybe being in those markets helps them in recruiting talent. I think Amazon wants a seat at the big boy table and being in NY and DC does that. It reminds me of Boeing corporate going to chicago.
11-14-2018, 11:49 AM
FLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunfree

they also carved out some absurd benefits - like the VA deal requires VA to give Amazon preemptive notice of any FOIA document release so they can do PR spin.

Man can AMZN play the media though.

Amazing that our elected officials can make secret deals. Seriously, how fucked up is that.

Like Austin has been saying, there is some super shady shit going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summit

NPR pointed out that Amazon chose the financial and political capitals for their new HQs.

This. Fully integrated.
11-14-2018, 11:58 AM
Benny Profane

Expect a presidential run in 2028.
11-14-2018, 12:02 PM
MontuckyFried

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

Exactly this. All of it.

Holy fuck. I actually am agreeing with AustinFromSA. If Amazon can make me agree with AustinFromSA, then anything is possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZtiJN6yiik
11-14-2018, 12:31 PM
PNWbrit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summit

NPR pointed out that Amazon chose the financial and political capitals for their new HQs.

It wasn't ever very much in doubt. (trust me)

The outrage should be poured on all the places that never stood a chance and yet still pulled up their skirts.
11-14-2018, 03:19 PM
Slopetime

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunfree

Maryland offered $5 billion. Virginia offered $500 million. AMZN chose Virginia. Explain to me why Virginia needed to offer anything.

The ROI will bring more than $500 million to the region over time. Va. Tech announced an expansion of its campus to the area as a result of this move I believe.
11-14-2018, 03:48 PM
homebrewd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Nashville is pretty cool these days, attracts a lot of young people from the middle of the country, is centrally located, and is home to FedEx, which is a delivery service of Amazon these days. I'd live there if I had to.

I fail to see how Amazon is a leader in marketing, BTW. Maybe super low cost and convenient retail, but, marketing?

Re: marketing think about the sheer volume of daily traffic they harbor and their product offerings outside their online marketplace. It's a huge opportunity to gain exposure. They are the leader in website traffic for Retail and E-commerce (only behind Google, YouTube and Facebook overall).
11-14-2018, 03:53 PM
PNWbrit

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebrewd

Re: marketing think about the sheer volume of daily traffic they harbor and their product offerings outside their online marketplace. It's a huge opportunity to gain exposure. They are the leader in website traffic for Retail and E-commerce (only behind Google, YouTube and Facebook overall).

Yep. They even have a division name "marketing" That Bunny fails to see.
11-14-2018, 04:11 PM
Sirshredalot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slopetime

The ROI will bring more than $500 million to the region over time. Va. Tech announced an expansion of its campus to the area as a result of this move I believe.

It's $500 million they didn't have to spend. The ROI is 0.
11-14-2018, 04:19 PM
Skidog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dromond

Is the median home value really near 1mil? That’s higher than Seattle. The NY HQ seems to complicate the “Amazon is leaving because it’s too expensive and the traffic is too bad” narrative.

I was a stat line some usatoday or cnn opinion writer who lives there's article. I was surprised as well. Prior to 2013 it was apparently industrial. Still has open real estate for a building like Amazon needs. The handouts suck. The traffic will suck, the trains will suck, and the possible return is very long term for taxpayer.

Amazon needed talent, period. They we're putting this in/near a big city no matter what. Here's the deal build where you find the right land or don't build. You shouldn't get "free" shit just because of where you needed to build anyway.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app
11-14-2018, 04:20 PM
Benny Profane

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebrewd

Re: marketing think about the sheer volume of daily traffic they harbor and their product offerings outside their online marketplace. It's a huge opportunity to gain exposure. They are the leader in website traffic for Retail and E-commerce (only behind Google, YouTube and Facebook overall).

Yeah, but, that's not marketing. It's retail and logistics. Product delivery.
11-14-2018, 04:37 PM
homebrewd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Yeah, but, that's not marketing. It's retail and logistics. Product delivery.

Retail and logistics are an integral part of a company's overall marketing strategy. Amazon is a single hub for all associated relations with regards to marketing a product or service (advertising, selling, and delivering products to consumers). Let alone the fact AWS has shitloads of pre-built templates for secure webservers and other cost effective solutions to start a business from the ground up. They also have tons of analytics tools for tracking metrics and creating standardized reports for monitoring product trends. Marketing is much more robust than sales and PR.
11-14-2018, 04:41 PM
Bobby Stainless

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

And fucking Nashville?!? Amazon is moving shit to Nashville. If they can convince people to move to Nashville, they can convince people to move pretty much anywhere.

So I guess you live under a rock. Lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

and is home to FedEx,

That's Memphis.

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