For reference: I have two sets pomoca pro free 2.0 skins. One tourlock, one normal. Both for 102 ish 184 skis. I weighed both. The weight savings for tourlock is 70 grams, for the pair.
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For reference: I have two sets pomoca pro free 2.0 skins. One tourlock, one normal. Both for 102 ish 184 skis. I weighed both. The weight savings for tourlock is 70 grams, for the pair.
EDIT: Numbers/pics belowQuote:
Originally Posted by xyz
Free Pro 2.0 for Hojis at 192g per ski
Seeing is believing
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ebe0bd7d26.jpg
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I would imagine the skin saver accounts for a lot of the weight difference. Also the Free Pro 2.0 is a lot lighter material than the Climb Pro S Glide
FYI: 191 Hojis (display models) on sale for $545: https://4frnt.com/collections/stash/...2-hoji-display
You're completely right. For SCIENCE, I weighed again (and will amend my prior post):Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneke10
Climb Pro S-Slide, cut for 190 / 108: 305g
Free Pro 2.0, cut for 191 / 112 with tour-lock thingie: 192g
So, 191 Raven with Voyager 14s/FR14s: 2563g + 192g skin = 2755g all-in.
That's pretty sweet!.
Might need to go tour some corn tomorrow...
Going forward, I'll move my annoying Hoji comments over to that thread - yes?
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Not only are the weight savings and packability sweet but the standard tail clips on Pomoca suck pretty hard compared to Tourlock setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by xyz
I have however had the tourlock attachment rip off on a number of occasions. 4frnt as always, sent me a new pair of skins asap. I told them and Hoji to double stitch it and the latest version I received from them were.
Overall Hoji nailed it again. I like his well thought out designs. I even still rock his Qunitic pack. The kidney shape skis really well by keeping the weight low and I can access my water bottle without taking my pack off. I can even transition skins into back pack without taking my pack off! I wish it was a little bigger tho as for full skimo days, it doesn’t have the capacity for rope, crampons etc etc.
So I kinda liked the Ravens but never clicked completely with them and hadn’t skied them in a while. I had adhered to Hoji’s mounting recommendations but always felt that their wasn’t enough ski in front of me. I’m just over 6’4” and 235-240. I’ve got a large but not huge foot, 28.5/327 bsl. Long tibia. I moved back to -9 and they now ski like everyone describes, loose, pivoty and predictable. Don’t be afraid to go farther back than what Hoji recommends if you’re bigger with big feet. They are still pretty forward at -9 on the 190.
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Not much to say that hasn't been said, but I've been really enjoying a pair of 190 Ravens for spring touring this season.
I've used the Ravens primarily on fast/open terrain in place of some 188 QST 106s (orange) that used to hold this slot. The Raven's tails are easier to release than the QSTs and don't give up much stability. I haven't noticed a limitation in edge hold on steeper terrain. Limited time in powder, but initial thoughts are that QSTs were better there. When things get really weird (breakable crust, hot BTL exits) the long tails are cumbersome - this is noticeable on all of the Hoji designs I've skied. Like others have said very versatile - I've only reached for something different 2x this spring (out of 12ish outings) 1x when going for tight/steep/scary stuff and 1x for a deep day.
The 4-lock system is excellent and I now prefer it over a traditional skin setup. One example: I often bury my tails on kickturns (especially on skis with long tails like the Raven) and the shorter skin and more secure attachment is way better for this.
Ravens with Duke PTs were by far my favorite ski this past season. They saved the powder highway trip that had no powder. But had lots of dust on crust.
I have a hole in the quiver around 110mm…and some 115mm Pivots…wondering if Hojis and Ravens are too close (also have Renegades btw).
Since you already have 2 Hoji skis why not switch it up and get some V Werks Katanas and mount them +5 or +6? I’ve skied them way forward mounted and they are a ton of fun, tails are not too grabby like they are on the M102 which I’ve also tried
FL113
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Love this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneke10
Spent some serious time on the V1s this spring, and they really clicked.
Modded my skis to accept the tour lock system, and I can confirm - its rad, skins never pop off like they do on the Hoji, and the skin saves a ton of space when compared to to a standard sized Free 2.0. I think every touring ski should adopt this design in some way shape or form...
However I was wondering how different the V2 (which I believe is still the current layup) is, outside of it being lighter.
Crow and I should have a review up of the V1 by end of the week for those interested - in the link below.
Some of this is like watching old comics on stage.
Yes, every touring setup should be a Hoji-lock.
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Modded my skis to accept the tour lock system, and I can confirm - its rad, skins never pop off like they do on the Hoji, and the skin saves a ton of space when compared to to a standard sized Free 2.0. I think every touring ski should adopt this design in some way shape or form...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad23e
Feel like I've heard this somewhere...
Just got a pair of 23 Ravens and there’s most certainly a shit ton more rocker than the 4frnt rendering suggests and it’s way more like the photos here. The “flat” spot is something like 350mm long, though the rocker is so gradual that a bit of weight and a binding will certainly lengthen that. They almost have the same rocker profile of the old orange Dynafit Beast 108. Knew this was likely going in and am stoked on them, but believe the people saying they’re really more full reverse than flat. It’s hard to catch a photo that shows it right - either makes it look way more or less rockered than real life
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I have ‘22 Ravens. And they are awesome.
Whachya mounting on yours?
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Atk/hagan core 12 pros w/toe shim 🥳Quote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
Running Zeds on mine, they're... transitions are quick, but definitely not as burly as the ATK trainQuote:
Originally Posted by kc_7777
wanted atks, but had some dynafit rotations lying around new in a box. pretty stoked to get them out this winter.
For those with a 3D printer, I just published the drill jig I made earlier this year for my Ravens earlier this year so that I could use a pair of 4-Lock skins I snagged last season.
https://www.printables.com/model/266...hole-drill-jig
Crow and I should have a review + instructions on how to do it on our website (see below), but most mags should be able to figure it out well before then.
In short: the system kicks ass, and everyone running this on their Ravens and other Hoji model skis.
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I'm considering consolidating my touring quiver into just a Raven and curious to hear people's thoughts on that since I don't have any time on them. Currently have 187 Hojis and 188 Bentchetler 100s both with pin bindings with the general idea of Hojis being for deeper/funky snow and bents being for longer tours/spring missions. I'm in CO so the majority of my touring is mellower low angle mid winter and then steeper spring missions once things stabilize, usually with a couple hut trips each year as well. My issue is I can never decide which ski to bring because they're so different so it feels like the Raven could maybe be that missing center of the venn diagram.
I absolutely love skiing the Hojis but they're not quite versatile enough IMO to be a one ski touring quiver (I really feel they're close but not all the way there). The reason I hesitate from bringing them all the time is the potential of running into firm/icy conditions both on the way up and the way down. I find the Hojis still do shockingly well in these types of conditions, but the bents are more predictable in steeper firmer terrain and better on shitty skin tracks due to being narrower and more camber. That said I find they have too much camber and sidecut, lack playfulness, and don't handle 3D snow particularly well.
Am I off base in thinking the Raven could be a good middle ground, or will the same lack of camber that occasionally gives me pause on the Hojis continue to be sizable enough factor with the Raven as well? I kind of want to consolidate the quiver either way but don't want to lose that Hoji magic, hence why I'm considering going with a Raven, but it's also possible it's just not the right ski to fill such a large range of responsibilities
I haven't skied my Ravens much on ice/firm, but I find them to be plenty predictable on the majority of spring objectives (corn, windpack, pow). I chose them repeatedly over Salomon MTN 95s. Unless it's especially steep, scary, or heinous I prefer the Raven so far. It's been a season since I skied Hojis, but the Raven is much better in low snow due to the narrower waist.
They do fine in pow, but there are better options. I prioritize pow skiing so will be skiing a Renegade or BG118 tour as a daily this winter.
Crow and I should be putting a review out on the first gen Raven + third gen Hoji (187) shortly. However, the profile on the Raven hasnt changed a ton since the first gen, more layup changes.
In short - The 184cm raven is great in most snow conditions up to about ~7-8" of fresh at my weight of ~175lbs. If I lived somewhere that gets less snow, like CO or East coast, I'd be hard pressed to find a better do-everything touring ski.
The first gen is incredibly predictable, but not very fun like the Hoji III. However, its way more manageable in different snow conditions both up and down. Based on what I've seen on later versions of the Raven, I believe the layup has gotten softer in the tails to allow a more playful feel without much sacrificing on predictability.
In Western WA, we get quite a bit more snow, so I'll be consolidating to two pairs this season: a storm touring ski, and regular - those two pairs will be a raven and renegade.
If you do get a Raven, get the one with a 4-lock - that system is way better than everything else on the market.
I run Raven’s as a 1 ski touring quiver.
They preform admirably in ~90% of the conditions you will experience. There are better options for the uber icy or uber deep… but you’ll struggle to find something that covers the range they do so well…
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Cool thanks for the thoughts everyone. I'm not as worried about deep pow performance since until I got Hojis I always toured on skis in the ~105 underfoot range and was plenty happy with them, but it is interesting how so many people call out that the Raven is not a powder ski. Would you say the same about any ski that's 104 underfoot or is there something specific about this ski that makes it feel like it floats worse than other shapes? Or do people see the camber profile and assume it's extra floaty?
As far as hardpack predictability, I just need something that can hold its own but doesn't need to massively excel since I'm hopefully not skiing that stuff too frequently. I have brought my Hojis on some spring tours and haven't had a bad experience especially with good skins and crampons for the way up (I've even skied them off the top of a peak on windblown boilerplate and survived), but I won't reach for them if I'm going into a steep couloir with unknown snow conditions where staying fully in control is key, so I would want the Raven to be adequate enough to maintain confidence there
The only 105ish ski I've skied extensively in mid-winter CO snow is an older orange QST106. They were surprisingly good. I think Blister and others have rated them as a standout for powder performance among skis in that category. A lot of shapes in this category have a wide tip (ala QST) which helps with float, but the Raven is pretty straight. Not bad in powder, just more of an "in it" vs. "on it" feeling. I like being on it midwinter CO so I go fat - helps keep me off the bottom in our shallow snow.
For firm stuff, I think it will come down to personal preference with regard to edge hold. Some really want a cambered ski with sidecut for those conditions. I prefer camber and sidecut for scary steep stuff, but so far the Raven has been adequate and I prefer it given the versatility/predictability elsewhere. Didn't ski a lot of scary stuff last season so data is limited. YMMV.
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The classic is back this Thursday in limited form!
I intentionally skiied my Ravens inbounds on super icy days at WB last year. We also had a week at Red that was super hard and thats all I skied.
Don’t get it when people say you need camber for ice?
The Ravens can rip on ice when you roll them over and engage the long full effective edge.
Or you see an icy patch. And your maching….just release and “slide” over the super hard ice, then roll your outside ski and magically you grip again. They’re awesome on ice.
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I’ve skied ravens in 14” of pow and they were great. Counter to most thinking i think a full reverse ski like the raven is great on firm snow. Concentrates your weight, power and grip under foot.
As someone who learned to ski as an adult and learned primarily in the backcountry, the full rocker and long radius of the Raven is much more confidence-inspiring on firm steeps than anything else. You have to pay attention to your edge angles a little more but in exchange the ski is much more predictable, stable and easy to control. The Volkl BMT 109 is even better on firm to me because it is more damp, and a very similar shape. If you want to keep the Hoji as a pow ski and replace the BC100 with something more capable and firm-snow focused, consider the Black Crows Solis, V-Werks Mantra (can be found relatively cheap from yurp right now) and Dynafit Beast 98 (also pretty cheap online), which all have a tiny bit of camber to give some extra grip on icy skin tracks but are still long radius with lots of rocker.
Pretty much everything under 110mm underfoot will disappoint in pow compared to the Hoji so why try to consolidate the quiver? The perfect skinny complement to the Hoji would be the BMT 94 in 186 if you can find a pair (I have a friend who could be convinced to sell.. pm me:)
Yeah maybe I don’t know what I prefer but I do see the line of thinking that skis like these could be more manageable in icy steeps in the backcountry since it’s a stable platform underfoot with less hooking. I grew up racing so I’m used to managing ice by putting a lot of energy into the skis but I don’t like skiing that aggressively in consequential terrain
I don’t think the Hoji “shapes” require a lot of effort or energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth
I can get from point A to point B in tough terrain, way faster on Ravens/Hojis, than I can on other cambered skis….with more speed and way less effort.
Cause when on a Raven/Hoji you can go straight, get up to mach speed, slide the tails to bleed off excess speed, slide into a carve, pivot, slarve or go straight again… they also let you stay in a turn for a real long time, eg slide, slide some more, etc. And it can all happen at speed …without the constant leg pressure carving a cambered ski. You need to stay centered and angle the edges when you want to grip/hold. They’re awesome.
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Which is why I now own Ravens, Hojis and Renegades.
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The only time I prefer traditional camber underfoot when on my Rens is when I’m traversing slowly on steep ice over exposure. Which can be a part of skinning and where crampons come in anyway.
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Crow and I just finished putting this review of the V1/MK1 Raven together.
https://www.experiencedgear.net/home/4frnt-raven-mk1
Let us know what folks think - constructive/non-constructive feedback welcome
Interesting review rfconroy. I've got a set of mk1s sitting in the back of the shed that I should try out.
Maybe there’s something wrong with my Ravens, mine aren’t reverse camber. They’re dead flat between the splayed parts of the tip and tail.
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Great writeup! I'm interested in your point about how the ski is hard on bindings. I'm not sure if that is really a thing, but one other data point is a buddy of mine got a new pair of Ravens last year and mounted them with Moment Voyagers and has been dealing with pre-releases. He is a very aggressive skier but only 160lbs and cranked the release up to a 12 on the bindings and still comes out. To be fair he also pre releases every other tech binding and mostly skis locked out so I don't really blame the skis or bindings.Quote:
Originally Posted by rfconroy