lazy ass illegals

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Originally Posted by Summit

... 80% hispanic... OK... this thread is about illegal aliens. Are those people illegal aliens?

EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE ENTIRE LIST IS WANTED FOR AT LEAST TWO OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING:

Vehicular Homicide
Vehicular Assault
Felony Hit and Run
DUI

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I don't know if they're illegals or not. However, Washington is a very 'white' state and doesn't border Mexico but we have a fairly large migrant worker population that works the orchards and agricultural areas in the central part of the state. I would venture a guess that these folks are either illegals or descendents of the migrant population. My position is (and I admit to not having read any of this thread. I came across the WSP site for another reason and it reminded me that this was here) that I support guest worker visas (God knows we need them for the ag areas) and I support some sort of tracking system. We, as natural born citizens are already on tracking systems through licensing, birth records, etc. Why wouldn't we want to track people who are here illegally and currently untraceable? Simply for security purposes, we should know who's within our borders, not to mention tax collection, charges for services, and so on. What good reason could we have for not wanting to know about these people?

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

I don't know if they're illegals or not.

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Yeah, you don't, but the implication of your post is that they are here without paperwork as you conclude below.

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I would venture a guess that these folks are either illegals or descendents of the migrant population.

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If they're descendents of the migrant population, most likely they were born here, which makes them citizens. Do you favor deporting citizens?

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What good reason could we have for not wanting to know about these people?

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Knowing what? That these guys should be found and prosecuted? Yes, I agree with you 100 percent on that part. They should be found and prosecuted for their alleged crimes. Where I part ways with you is in your implied assumption that everyone with a Hispanic surname must be an "illegal alien" and should be deported. Following that logic, we should deport Alberto Gonzales. Hmm, maybe I'm coming around to seeing your point of view.

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Originally Posted by cloudpeak

If they're descendents of the migrant population, most likely they were born here, which makes them citizens. Do you favor deporting citizens?



Knowing what? That these guys should be found and prosecuted? Yes, I agree with you 100 percent on that part. They should be found and prosecuted for their alleged crimes. Where I part ways with you is in your implied assumption that everyone with a Hispanic surname must be an "illegal alien" and should be deported. Following that logic, we should deport Alberto Gonzales. Hmm, maybe I'm coming around to seeing your point of view.

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If they're descendents of illegals, born here (which isn't necessarily so as the migrants tend to go back and forth) then yes, they are citizens. But they are descendents of people who were here illegally to start with which is the intent of not allowing illegal migration to continue.

No, I don't believe all hispanic surnames should be deported. I thought I was pretty clear in the point that we need their labor force. Besides, we are a country of immigrants, for the most part who came here legally. I don't favor their presence because they can be paid illegally low wages, which is deplorable on the part of those employers who do that. I feel we need them because the unemployment numbers in our country have been running pretty low and without the migrating workforce, we don't have enough people to fill the jobs, disregarding the fact that most of our natural citizens don't even want those kinds of jobs. My point is to gain a means of controlling the borders to keep the undesirables out to the best of our abilities and to have a way of tracking those who enter legally then participate in illegal acts once in. Let's face it, sitting on our hands and doing nothing is a risk. Incidentally, this applies to all immigrants, not just hispanics. The same rules should apply to all non U.S. citizens as there are undesirables trying to get into the U.S. from just about every country in the world. This isn't a generalized or rascist position. It's one of controlling our borders better to lessen the dangers that can be brought to us from outside our borders.

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Originally Posted by GoldMember

My point is to gain a means of controlling the borders to keep the undesirables out to the best of our abilities and to have a way of tracking those who enter legally then participate in illegal acts once in. Let's face it, sitting on our hands and doing nothing is a risk. Incidentally, this applies to all immigrants, not just hispanics. The same rules should apply to all non U.S. citizens as there are undesirables trying to get into the U.S. from just about every country in the world. This isn't a generalized or rascist position. It's one of controlling our borders better to lessen the dangers that can be brought to us from outside our borders.

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Yes, he wants law and order to be applied to everyone!!! And these rules do apply to US citizens born here or not. Pay taxes, be accountable for your actions. We do not need 12 million untraceble people roaming the country free from all laws.


Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah !!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

Yes, he wants law and order to be applied to everyone!!! And these rules do apply to US citizens born here or not. Pay taxes, be accountable for your actions. We do not need 12 million untraceble people roaming the country free from all laws.

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Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!.....We have a winner!! Exactly.

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/crime/wanted_photos/labrielg.jpg

How hard can this guy be to find? Seriously!

And maybe it's not illegal immigration that's the problem highlighted by that list, but cars. Fucking CARS.

Just checking in for the first time this morning. Some interesting points have been raised, and I'm certainly glad that the debate (at least here) is about understanding the problem and the real-world solutions. Deportation or building a big fence are not the solutions.

You have to look at illegal immigration like you do the "drug war". No matter how much money and man-power you put against trying to deal with the supply side issue, fundamental market forces are going to overwhelm any strategy you take. In short, you can't win the battle w/o looking at both supply and demand and understanding the factors that are driving the market. Building a fence would be as useless as spraying some coca fields in Colombia - just as the drug syndicates will will find alternative sources of supply somewhere else, the illegals will find a way to get in. For God's sake, hundreds of thousands of Chinese are smuggled into this country every year, and they start out 10,000 miles away across an ocean. And seriously, if you think we're going to be able to impact Al Qaeda's ability to infiltrate our Southern border, you're kidding yourself. If we can't stop a 250 lb. woman with a 2nd grade education from doing it, how are we going to stop a well-trained 32 year old male?

And for those who believe that illegals are simply sucking on the teet of American society, I point you right back to Summit's own link to that story on illegals' Social Security contributions. All the money they are paying into Social Security (IIRC, something like $7 billion/year) remains with the US govt b/c there are no beneficiaries to pay out to (SSN and name don't match etc...). The security/crime/public danger problems that Summit described (people jumping off bridges to avoid the INS, etc..) is a clear sign that the system needs fixing, not that we need to kick the rascals out. I'll relate the experience of a good friend of mine.

Had this conversation with him last night in fact. He owns a small business making hats for unions and govt agencies in Northern NJ. All of his line employees are Hispanic. Due to the reforms undertaken during the Reagan administration, he has the obligation to check his employees' paperwork upon hiring them. He does so fully and to the full extent of the resources available to him. Their paperwork is all impeccable, without exception. It is so impeccable in fact, that even the INS employees who review his employees' records on an annual basis believed that all his employees were legal. He suspected some of his employees were illegals, but had no idea who. No idea, that is, until a rumor spread through the factory floor that the INS was on the way for a spot inspection and were cracking down. Ten of his guys ran out the door for some reason, so now he knows. He is adament, however, that he has never received any serious inquiries from native born locals to take his line jobs. As he put it, "No one wants to get paid $7 an hour to sew all day." The $7 figure, though still crap money in the grand scheme of things (less than $15K/yr) represents an $0.85/hr premium over the NJ State minimum wage. All of his guys pay into Social Security. The illegals simply use a SSN that they have purchased from someone else in the Hispanic community - this is a big business.

Anyway, there are a few takeaways from that whole song and dance:

1) Not all business owners knowingly use or exploit illegals. This has become a very sophisticated business and the illegals can often acquire bulletproof paperwork.

2) Purchasing a SSN from someone in the Hispanic community is FAR more prevalent than any theft of a SSN from Joe American b/c you could simply go and find the individual who is using your SSN for work as soon as you receive your annual statement from the SS Administration - it has the address of your workplace right on it.

3) Even at a 36% premium to the federal minimum wage ($5.15 vs. $7.00), natives aren't interested in the menial work immigrants take on.

4) This is a complex problem that requires complex, well-thought out solutions, not pithy soundbites designed to get Representative So and So on TV and appeal to the repressed xenophobe in a large segment of our population.

Well said TW. Our economy needs these workers, demand is not going away. It is a complex problem and one that will be debated for some time before a solution is found. There will undoubtedly be legal change in the nearer term that will face court challenges, further modifications, and will still be a faulty solution requiring more tweaking for years to come. But, to sit on our hands and do nothing only delays this process and is unproductive. I hope we see further serious debate in Congress sooner rather than later with action plans drawn and implemented.

Tw. Agreed.

But I think you are down playing the ss issue. Yes some have friends or relatives to purchase them from, and some do not. I myself have been shown many a phony card. I have also seen the INS at their holding facitlity at SFO mocking some illegals for being ripped off by whoever sold them that card in Mexico. (dont ask why I was in there)

In my lawsuit, I have had a lot of Chinese immigrants investigated by professionals. I have so many names and social security numbers I am often led to others with the same names. The Chinese have common names. Mind you , all these names are comming from public records in the court system, or associates of the people I am after, so it is not a fair representation of Normal Chinese society. But, most of these people have either been using eachothers ss numbers, fabricating new ones, stealing ones from unsuspecting Americans, or all of the above. I reported all of this shit, confirmed by lawyers who investigate this shit for a living to the authorities, and they have done jack shit. Sometimes I feel like calling up Joe Blow in an Arizona retirement home and telling that his ss number is being used by 10 other people.

But, we have the same abuse here with underage drinkers tring to obtain a phony ID. But I would argue that a uch much higher percentage of illegals are doing this than that segment of out permanent society.

Until I went this through this experience, i had no idea what some people do to cheat their way through our country. what I have learned, is that they just do not have the respect for the system, and will bend it just to the breaking point if they can, and that is quite a bit before you go to jail.

Guard your ss numbers, do the free credit check once a year.

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

Until I went this through this experience, i had no idea what some people do to cheat their way through our country. what I have learned, is that they just do not have the respect for the system, and will bend it just to the breaking point if they can, and that is quite a bit before you go to jail.

Guard your ss numbers, do the free credit check once a year.

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Well, when the system is designed only to send them home, then one would expect them to have little respect for it. By definition, they are outside the law as soon as they cross the Rio Grande. This is exactly why the system needs to be changed to provide incentives for the honest, hard-working illegals to join the rest of society, albeit in a limited manner.

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Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman

albeit in a limited manner.

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Why? What is really accomplished by this? Everything I have read and seen indicates that guest worker programs have failed everywhere they've been implemented. They create a perpetual lower class, isolated from the opportunities available to the people around them. Do we really want to repeat those mistakes?

If people are fundamentally honest and hardworking, why make their participation "limited"? Why not make the discussion and process simple and compelling? What does a "limited manner" do better than a "full manner"? Do you really think the government can motivate 11 million people to sign up for second-classness and then actually monitor them effectively?

The notion that they broke the law by entering, or by overstaying visas might give some gut satisfaction if one is inclined to be punitive, but it does little to help find a solution - one involving a population of 11 million. And as others have noted, how large a "crime" is that vs the incentive to find financial or physical security?

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Originally Posted by spindrift

They create a perpetual lower class

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Isn’t the Mexican culture based on “classes” due the way it was settled/invaded? We can not allow them to stay and earn a different wage. They will not be able to afford to live here and will eventually be hooked on welfare.

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Originally Posted by Pow4Brains

Isn’t the Mexican culture based on “classes” due the way it was settled/invaded? We can not allow them to stay and earn a different wage. They will not be able to afford to live here and will eventually be hooked on welfare.

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If only you had pow for brains, that ouwld be an upgrade, if comments like these are any indication.

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Originally Posted by spindrift

Why? What is really accomplished by this? Everything I have read and seen indicates that guest worker programs have failed everywhere they've been implemented. They create a perpetual lower class, isolated from the opportunities available to the people around them. Do we really want to repeat those mistakes?

If people are fundamentally honest and hardworking, why make their participation "limited"? Why not make the discussion and process simple and compelling? What does a "limited manner" do better than a "full manner"? Do you really think the government can motivate 11 million people to sign up for second-classness and then actually monitor them effectively?

The notion that they broke the law by entering, or by overstaying visas might give some gut satisfaction if one is inclined to be punitive, but it does little to help find a solution - one involving a population of 11 million. And as others have noted, how large a "crime" is that vs the incentive to find financial or physical security?

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Who who - slow down now. Apparently you haven't been reading the whole thread. To summarize, it's illogical to think that we can send these people home. It is equally silly to just give them a quick and easy path to full citizenship. I support some sort of program where they have a clearly defined path to legitimacy and, eventually, citizenship. But they shouldn't be able to "jump the line" over people who go through the proper channels from day one. Some sort of guest worker ID that with X amount of years of paying taxes and avoiding criminal activity, could be converted into a Green Card and eventually citizenship. Something like that. A permament underclass is not what I envision at all.

And it should be noted, BTW, that other countries where they've attempted guest worker programs (Germany comes to mind) are overwhelmingly homogenous vs. our extremely heterogenous society. We've got a lot of experience integrating people into the melting pot. Few other places ahve a clue.

Tin - I like the way you think. It's a logical progression to citizenship and its associated responsibilities for those responsible enough to be citizens. Your progression is the same as I support.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

http://www.wsp.wa.gov/crime/wanted_photos/labrielg.jpg

How hard can this guy be to find? Seriously!
CARS.

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Bwa! Halos ... so hot right now. Wouldn't surprise me if the guy tried to take it off himself. Certainly wouldn't be the first time ...

TW - I have been reading thw whole thread. I did however misread your intent. The other guest worker stuff I've seen has not offered much of a path to legitimacy. If any. I assumed that was where you were going (which did seem odd given your other posts). Sorry.

Nonetheless, it is worth asking whether or not pragmatics should win out over a vague sense of moral indignation? If we have 11 million folks here already, would it be more or less reasonable to just fast-track them (with perhaps some form of modest probationary period)? Sometimes things feel "right", but don't deliver the results you want. Why mot make it a "no-brainer" for 99%+ of these folks to get onboard? Would that necessarily make it any slower for anyone else? To some degree it would just be "book keeping" (of a good kind) -- since as we all know, these people are already here.

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Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman

If only you had pow for brains, that ouwld be an upgrade, if comments like these are any indication.

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This is a comparison of colonialism vs. democracy, in case you didn’t understand my point the first time dipshit.
Oh yeah, you're right, the current minimum wage IS a great way to live. We don’t have to support people on minimum wage at all. In fact they make way too $. We might as well reduce it.
A little difference in opinion and you get your panties in a bundle………..A little insecure are we?:nonono2:

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Originally Posted by spindrift

TW - I have been reading thw whole thread. I did however misread your intent. The other guest worker stuff I've seen has not offered much of a path to legitimacy. If any. I assumed that was where you were going (which did seem odd given your other posts). Sorry.

Nonetheless, it is worth asking whether or not pragmatics should win out over a vague sense of moral indignation? If we have 11 million folks here already, would it be more or less reasonable to just fast-track them (with perhaps some form of modest probationary period)? Sometimes things feel "right", but don't deliver the results you want. Why mot make it a "no-brainer" for 99%+ of these folks to get onboard? Would that necessarily make it any slower for anyone else? To some degree it would just be "book keeping" (of a good kind) -- since as we all know, these people are already here.

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I think that realistically, your suggestion would run afoul not only of politics, but would also be impractical to implement quickly. Think about it - you've got 11-15 million people running around with no legit ID whatsoever, no insurance, kids in various states of schooling (or not). And we have no ability to weed out the wheat from the chaff. It would be unfair to let them acquire citizenship in a Big Bang while people who've been working the process to get a Green Card for years are left on the sidelines. Also, do you really have any faith that an organization as disfunctional as the INS could handle such a load? I sure don't.

From a practical standpoint, you have to spread things out. From a fairness one, I think you have to give them that requires something of them beyond just their ability to wade across the Rio Grande. They really should have to earn it, and I don't think that a couple years of paying taxes and staying out of trouble is too much to ask. The alternatives are remaining in the shadow society with the occasional threat of deportation. I'll take Door #1 please.

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Originally Posted by Pow4Brains

This is a comparison of colonialism vs. democracy, in case you didn’t understand my point the first time dipshit.
Oh yeah, you're right, the current minimum wage IS a great way to live. We don’t have to support people on minimum wage at all. In fact they make way too $. We might as well reduce it.
A little difference in opinion and you get your panties in a bundle………..A little insecure are we?:nonono2:

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You know what - it's not really worth arguinig about if you make statements like "they will all end up on welfare". That's just uninformed nonsense. If it hurts your feelings, tough shit. Latinos are to a large extent one of the more upwardly mobile ethnic groups in our society. There is no evidence that a permanent underclass is being created by their existence here and there is every reason to believe that this mobility would increase if these people were legitimized.

And as for minimum wage, I'm not sure what or who you're arguing against. When did I say the current minimum wage is a great way to live? It's a pretty lousy living, actually. I'm all for raising the minimum wage to something more closely approaching a "living wage" - no one can live on $5.15/hr. Just understand that the laws of economics dictate that this will likely reduce the available supply of jobs.

From the arguments you're making, it seems that the van down by the river you're living in is Spicoli's van.

Most people don't even understand what's really going on, illegal immigration is only a symptom of a very serious problem, overpopulation.
I have worked with illegals extensively, they were not particularly good workers, as soon as the boss left they stoped working. They all hated us
Gringos, even told us they were there to take back the SW USA, this was'
said by them many times.

Love the TGR logic brigade contorting themselves to avoid acknowledging the 300 pound gorilla named racism sitting in the corner--shocked, shocked they are, that anyone brings up racism as a cause of this xenophobia! Can't be!
Buncha no brain, reactionary tools.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Love the TGR logic brigade contorting themselves to avoid acknowledging the 300 pound gorilla named racism sitting in the corner--shocked, shocked they are, that anyone brings up racism as a cause of this xenophobia! Can't be!
Buncha no brain, reactionary tools.

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The no brain, reactionary tools that I think are the silliest are the ones that preach sensitivity and open-mindedness but live their lives as hateful assholes who are truly "equal opportunity" in who they direct their unthoughtful, idiotic spew toward.

Good point--definitely unthoughtful, and idiotic, to hate racists. My bad.
Well thought out.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Love the TGR logic brigade contorting themselves to avoid acknowledging the 300 pound gorilla named racism sitting in the corner--shocked, shocked they are, that anyone brings up racism as a cause of this xenophobia! Can't be!

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Sweet... if you just say that the only real problem is racism, you can ignore everything else. If everyone would just love the illegals, everything would be sweet and we would live in a fuzzy world full of golden lollypop dreams.

Ohhhhh that terrible thing logic and the stodgy uptight people who use it... how dare anyone try to logically analzye the situation. I'm glad we have people like Dex around who ascribe to the post-modern new-age "the truth is subjective" anti-rationalism. Where would we be without his "don't think, emote" reactionary style?

Dex, Just bury your head in the sand and hum real loud like you were doing before. It's better for you. It's better for the "Logic Brigade" too.