I-70 is F@&KED

I watched a traffic documentary about how curves, declines, inclines create a natural reaction or impulse to pump the brakes even when not necessary. this can cause a chain reaction going back for miles. it can effect traffic 20 minutes to an hour later and in storms obviously much more.

IMO
people will never learn spacing and using a lower gear to control their speed in heavy traffic and rely less on their brakes. I 'd rather be travelling at a constant 15/20 mph rather than stop and go and stop and wait then go then stop 2 seconds later gain half a mile the start the stupidity all over again..

the big problem with proper spacing is that most people don't want someone else to move into the gap ahead of them so they follow too close.

such is life

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Originally Posted by WTF is dat

It is impossible, for so many different reasons. First of all, light rail is not powerful enough to make it up many of the steeper grades on 170, and would therefore require a more expensive technology such as EMU or maglev, or ridiculously expensive tunnels to avoid the steeper grades.

Second, have any of you guys actually looked at the cost estimates for the train? Last I saw it was something like 10 billion. This is pie in the sky type of stuff and will NEVER happen. Even if the train did get built, tickets are going to cost upwards of 50 bucks. Who is going to pay that? Not worth it, especially if traveling with multiple people.

The next problem is that the west rail line is a light rail system, and would therefore require a transfer to the ski train at i70, which will be a different technology. This ski train won't even get near most ski areas besides MAYBE copper and Loveland. Vail is not happening. Can you really imagine the residents of vail valley allowing a train through their precious real estate? So to get to most ski resorts from central denver would require a minimum of 2 transfers. 3 from the airport. And you expect people to do this with ski gear etc?

The only real public transit solution for i70 IMHO would be a large BRT system with different routes that terminated at different ski areas. Much cheaper to implement, and actually more effective for many reasons

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I said light rail to get from Silverthorne and Frisco to Keystone and Breck.

Vail already has a fucking interstate going through it. A train wouldn't do anything but possibly increase their property values.

Everyone talks about it like it is a total impossibility, but it is not. Look at Europe- it is very possible to build rail into the mountains. We can do it too.

I suppose this is also an option-
http://i.imgur.com/94RpPBR.gif

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Originally Posted by Kevo

I said light rail to get from Silverthorne and Frisco to Keystone and Breck.

Vail already has a fucking interstate going through it. A train wouldn't do anything but possibly increase their property values.

Everyone talks about it like it is a total impossibility, but it is not. Look at Europe- it is very possible to build rail into the mountains. We can do it too.

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Ok you are right. Not a total impossibility.

But it will NEVER happen in colorado. Never. Unless someone finds ten billion dollars lying around

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Originally Posted by WTF is dat

Unless someone finds ten billion dollars lying around

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Sure, why don't don't we increase the tax rate for natural gas producers?

How big is this train station parking lot going to be in Denver?

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Originally Posted by Kevo

I suppose this is also an option-
http://i.imgur.com/94RpPBR.gif

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I could see that coming in handy on a powder day.

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Originally Posted by Kevo

Sure, why don't don't we increase the tax rate for natural gas producers?

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great idea, too bad the oil and gas industry controls the governors office in colorado

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Originally Posted by fastfred

great idea, too bad the oil and gas industry controls the governors office in colorado

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what about all the tax revenue from weed sales :fm:

What would be nice are a few other resorts in different areas of the Front Range, to spread the crowd out. Something up by Cameron Pass, something by Guenalla Pass on the south side, expand Eldora, maybe reopen and improve that defunct area off Trail Ridge Road (name escapes me). A few options off the I70 corridor might help.

Why has RTD not been pushed to offer service? I know it’s a long distance, but it can’t cost that much for a fleet of buses and service setups. Integrate it with Summit bus route and you’re golden.

Denver to Copper-Vail-Beaver Creek loop
Denver to Winter Park
Denver to Loveland- ABasin- Keystone Loop
Denver to Breckenridge

Have less frequent times departing from IS, Georgetown, Evergreen, etc. You have to implement mass transit eventually…

^^^^
Because, without a dedicated HOV lane, it will take you the same amount of time to get city>mountains. A full bus would take 20-40 cars of the road but that would not have a sizable impact on traffic until there were a shit ton of buses. We have a sophisticated system to control behavior in the country, it's called capitalism. What does round trip gas cost? $20-40? What would the bus cost? How you gonna incentivise a family of four the take the bus vs. the SUV? Bus is free? Toll for vehicles with less than 4 ppl. during peak times?

^^^^
Because, without a dedicated HOV lane, it will take you the same amount of time to get city>mountains. A full bus would take 20-40 cars of the road but that would not have a sizable impact on traffic until there were a shit ton of buses. We have a sophisticated system to control behavior in the country, it's called capitalism. What does round trip gas cost? $20-40? What would the bus cost? How you gonna incentivise a family of four the take the bus vs. the SUV? Bus is free? Toll for vehicles with less than 4 ppl. during peak times?

Foggy, I don’t think we’ll ever develop a mass transit option that can out price a loaded SUV. If everyone had 4+ in a vehicle, I don’t think I70 would be such a hot topic issue either. By default, mass transit is geared to 1-3 people.

WP could be doable, since the traffic issue is quite minimal on that route these days, but your right, it wouldn’t really “take off” until a new lane is built.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

^^^^
Because, without a dedicated HOV lane, it will take you the same amount of time to get city>mountains. A full bus would take 20-40 cars of the road but that would not have a sizable impact on traffic until there were a shit ton of buses. We have a sophisticated system to control behavior in the country, it's called capitalism. What does round trip gas cost? $20-40? What would the bus cost? How you gonna incentivise a family of four the take the bus vs. the SUV? Bus is free? Toll for vehicles with less than 4 ppl. during peak times?

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Luckily, if there's one thing government REALLY understands, it's how to incentivize a particular pattern of behavior.





:nonono2:

Train is a losing proposition, and here is why: you could conceivably structure it to work in the winter, but what about summer, when I-70 actually sees more traffic and people's destinations are so diverse? And Europe isn't usable as an example, because they don't have the same national forests and recreational spaces in every direction. How do you get people to green mountain reservoir, to red sandstone road, to Sylvan lake, with all of their gear and family, with a train running along 70? And how do you justify the expense of a train that only "works" during ski season?

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Originally Posted by Danno

Train is a losing proposition, and here is why: you could conceivably structure it to work in the winter, but what about summer, when I-70 actually sees more traffic and people's destinations are so diverse? And Europe isn't usable as an example, because they don't have the same national forests and recreational spaces in every direction. How do you get people to green mountain reservoir, to red sandstone road, to Sylvan lake, with all of their gear and family, with a train running along 70? And how do you justify the expense of a train that only "works" during ski season?

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This. The train idea is dumb and dead in the water for this single reason. Way too expensive of an idea that would only work in winter.

Did that drive going West a few weeks ago at around 5ish on Sunday. It's mind blowing how many cars were coming down at that time. White knuckle drive too with snow coming down, amazing how many do it.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by Danno

Train is a losing proposition, and here is why: you could conceivably structure it to work in the winter, but what about summer, when I-70 actually sees more traffic and people's destinations are so diverse? And Europe isn't usable as an example, because they don't have the same national forests and recreational spaces in every direction. How do you get people to green mountain reservoir, to red sandstone road, to Sylvan lake, with all of their gear and family, with a train running along 70? And how do you justify the expense of a train that only "works" during ski season?

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The train in summer would take the tourists off the road and focus their vacations on destinations rather than aimlessly fucking shit up. Grand Junction-Denver could be a reality.

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Originally Posted by DasBlunt

The train in summer would take the tourists off the road and focus their vacations on destinations rather than aimlessly fucking shit up. Grand Junction-Denver could be a reality.

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But that's not realistic IMO. Families with kids want to go camping and hang out around a fire not rent a condo in Breck. When it's cold then yes but getting a normal suburban family and all their shit organized and into the car, then train, then bus doesn't seem realistic since they've got a big ass SUV chilling in the driveway.

For instance you say GJ to Denver but what about a mountain bike trip with the family. How do I get to 18 rd. or Loma?

I could be totally wrong and I would be part of a family that would make every effort to ride the train if we still lived there but I just don't think the general public will ride a train.

I still maintain that you either deal with traffic or hope for increased pass prices.

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Originally Posted by concretejungle

I still maintain that you either deal with traffic or hope for increased pass prices.

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Pretty much agree with this. Can't do much about ski traffic unless you change the cost of an annual pass. Once that's done you still have the summer camping shitshow (and yes, piblic transportation won't do shit to solve that).

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Originally Posted by WTF is dat

Ok you are right. Not a total impossibility.

But it will NEVER happen in colorado. Never. Unless someone finds ten billion dollars lying around

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You're probably right it will never happen. Instead, ten billion dollars will get spent expanding the interstate. It won't happen because Coloradoans are a bunch of entitled fucks who can't even imagine actually carrying ski gear from a parking lot to a train to a parking lot.

We're a hugely short-sighted people, and we can't even see far enough to identify the problems that might help us commit to fixing our own short-sightedness.

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Originally Posted by Jamespio

It won't happen because Coloradoans are a bunch of entitled fucks who can't even imagine actually carrying ski gear from a parking lot to a train to a parking lot.

We're a hugely short-sighted people, and we can't even see far enough to identify the problems that might help us commit to fixing our own short-sightedness.

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Pretty sure no one is saying the train won't work in winter. If they did it it would help and a ton of people would take it.

What doesn't make sense is spending 10 billion or whatever to solve the problem for winter only. Summer traffic is just as bad if not worse and a train won't do anything to solve it.

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Originally Posted by DasBlunt

The train in summer would take the tourists off the road and focus their vacations on destinations rather than aimlessly fucking shit up. Grand Junction-Denver could be a reality.

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Pretty sure there already is a train from Denver to Grand Junction with stops in Fraser/WP and Glenwood Springs. The problem is Summit/Eagle and the best way there is by road.

Folks that think a bus shuttle would work with a train > it is already in place in the example above. Probably keeps 8 cars and one Winnebago off the road.

6 lanes from Denver to Avon = most realistic solution. Bore the Jerry Ford tunnel now.

Or put a tunnel into the Fraser valley and let the disease spread north. :(

Pave Rollins Pass and turn it into an actual option for WP skiers. Getting all the WP / Steamboat / Grand Lake traffic off I-70 during the winter and summer months could help. It wont help with the Georgetown hill mess but it could reduce the shit show near Floyd Hill and Idaho Springs.