The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

Just finished my third day at whistler on these since reading this thread and have been real paranoid about having a heal prerelease despite not previously having any issues with my shifts this year

One thing I figured out is that I started to step into the bindings twice. Despite removing all snow from my boots and as much as possible from the bindings I have not always hade a crisp sounding initial step in despite proper boot alignment in the binder. So what I started doing today was releasing the heal after the first step in and stepping in again which gave me 100% crisp sounding binding engagement on the second step in which in turn gave me piece of mind.

A hassle yes, but given what I’ve read I think it’s good practice if you are running any high consequence lines in your shifts.

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Originally Posted by Chugachjed

I’ve been seeing a lot on the hill. Haven’t seen any in the BC though. I’ve been touring midweek though.

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I found i t interesting that when the fianceé and I went up Mt. Washington last Tuesday, five of the six skiers who passed us on the way up were on Shifts (the fifth was on Kingpins, FWIW). Until then, I hadn't seen a whole lot in the wild going uphill, just a decent sample size riding lifts locally (including some with the walk mode lever up, not sure what was up with that).

I've now toured in mine a few times, no brake disengagement issues or anything else so far. Skiing performance has been good; I've got them on a pair of Black Crow Animas that were my primary all-mountain ski this winter, and aside from the initial waterbar-induced release after failing to see how the shop set them, I've not had any unwanted releases. I do tend to try to be smoother rather than relying on binding elasticity, though—I can kick out if I try hard enough, but that's the way I like skis set if I'm going to be poking around in the trees. One boot-top fracture is enough for me.

On the notes of pre-releases a general performance observation. I have freedom RS’s with alpine blocks and Vulcans that I’ve used in my Shifts. 25 days on a pair mounted on Line Pescado’s.

No real issues with either. But they do seem a little more hassle free when I ski them with the Freedoms. Also the power transfer is a way better. I don’t notice the Vulcans in good snow but I was trying to get a few hip drags on slushy groomers and noticed the RS being way more solid.

Main point, touring soles will take away from power transfer (especially in variable snow). Same can be said of a touring boot being used in a Warden or similar binding. The rubber can twist and compress leading to a tiny bit of play.

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

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Main point, touring soles will take away from power transfer (especially in variable snow). Same can be said of a touring boot being used in a Warden or similar binding. The rubber can twist and compress leading to a tiny bit of play.

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Yup this ^^ IME the Vibram of an AT sole will compress and release energey just bouncing thru dips

It required 1 more DIN at the heel or I walked out of the FR+ which did not happen on a plastic DIN sole

I don't imagine the SHIFT is any different

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

......Main point, touring soles will take away from power transfer (especially in variable snow). Same can be said of a touring boot being used in a Warden or similar binding. The rubber can twist and compress leading to a tiny bit of play.

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Vulcans/Mercurys have a number of very hard rubber pads within their soles to specifically counted this issue.

Would 120mm crampons be ok on my 104mm wide skis? I know I could get the 100mm ones - but I'm trying to build a bit of room in if I decide to upgrade my skis soon..... (My 6 year old Atomic Rituals are probably due an upgrade).

And does anyone know if anywhere has them in stock in (or would deliver to) Vancouver BC? Out of stock everywhere! Might have to get them sent from the UK at this rate.

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Originally Posted by Colin_N

Would 120mm crampons be ok on my 104mm wide skis? I know I could get the 100mm ones - but I'm trying to build a bit of room in if I decide to upgrade my skis soon.......

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Not a real problem using the 120mm crampon, not the best solution but ok. I was pretty scathing of Salomon when they announced that they were only offering 100mm and 120mm crampons and not a 110mm. However after trying them and seeing the significantly greater support the two outer fixing points give (compared to the traditional single central attachment point of a Dynafit style) I'm no longer as concerned about it.

Salomon are completely sold out of both sizes and the only place I know of in Europe that still have some is Ski Barlett in the UK that a few days ago had a couple of 120mm sets left. The RRP is GBP60 and they're profiteering a bit as they're selling them at GBP69.95 but you'd get them VAT free at GBP58.29 + shipping.

I called Salomon this morning and in theory they have more 100mm stock due end April and 120mm early May (& one schyster Danish outfit is taking orders for them at GBP99!!!) however I strongly suspect that they will either not materialise or will be allocated to the 19/20 dealer stock orders etc.

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Originally Posted by Colin_N

Would 120mm crampons be ok on my 104mm wide skis? I know I could get the 100mm ones - but I'm trying to build a bit of room in if I decide to upgrade my skis soon..... (My 6 year old Atomic Rituals are probably due an upgrade).

And does anyone know if anywhere has them in stock in (or would deliver to) Vancouver BC? Out of stock everywhere! Might have to get them sent from the UK at this rate.

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Been using 120s on my 105 wide skis. No issues as yet. Feels pretty solid.

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Originally Posted by Colin_N

Would 120mm crampons be ok on my 104mm wide skis? I know I could get the 100mm ones - but I'm trying to build a bit of room in if I decide to upgrade my skis soon..... (My 6 year old Atomic Rituals are probably due an upgrade).
..

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the idea as I understand it is to have the crampons be narrow enough to get support from the ski sidewalls as the crampon flexes but other wise it works,

I seem to remember using some 130mm crampons on a 120 dynafit binding no problem

I've used B&D 120 mm crampons on 106 mm dynafit grand tetons without problem (dynafit verticals)

Climbed shasta with them

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Not a real problem using the 120mm crampon, not the best solution but ok. I was pretty scathing of Salomon when they announced that they were only offering 100mm and 120mm crampons and not a 110mm. However after trying them and seeing the significantly greater support the two outer fixing points give (compared to the traditional single central attachment point of a Dynafit style) I'm no longer as concerned about it.

Salomon are completely sold out of both sizes and the only place I know of in Europe that still have some is Ski Barlett in the UK that a few days ago had a couple of 120mm sets left. The RRP is GBP60 and they're profiteering a bit as they're selling them at GBP69.95 but you'd get them VAT free at GBP58.29 + shipping.

I called Salomon this morning and in theory they have more 100mm stock due end April and 120mm early May (& one schyster Danish outfit is taking orders for them at GBP99!!!) however I strongly suspect that they will either not materialise or will be allocated to the 19/20 dealer stock orders etc.

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Yeah Ski Bartlett is where I'd found them!

Thanks all for the advice on ski width, I'll get the 120mm ones then.

A bit of toe shimming action:

http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/da..._toe_shims.jpg

Quick dumb question: would a 120mm crampon work OK on a 99mm waist ski?

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Quick dumb question: would a 120mm crampon work OK on a 99mm waist ski?

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Read the posts above on that exact subject.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Read the posts above on that exact subject.

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Wow, even stupider than I thought. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

A bit of toe shimming action:

http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/da..._toe_shims.jpg

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I'm trying to shim a pair of shifts to the equivalent of zero differential alpine bindings. This is in combo with a pair of Hawx XTDs. Getting tired of the trial and error method, any input on amount needed?

Since the WTR sole complicates things, would getting the top of the toe lug to 11mm below the top of the heel lug work?
Ie Alpine heel height specs are 30 mmm heel, 19 mm toe.

Does this logic work?

Thanks for any input.

Are you using a jig to drill your shim holes?

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Originally Posted by turnfarmer

I'm trying to shim a pair of shifts to the equivalent of zero differential alpine bindings. This is in combo with a pair of Hawx XTDs. Getting tired of the trial and error method, any input on amount needed?

Since the WTR sole complicates things, would getting the top of the toe lug to 11mm below the top of the heel lug work?
Ie Alpine heel height specs are 30 mmm heel, 19 mm toe.

Does this logic work?

Thanks for any input.

Are you using a jig to drill your shim holes?

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Yep, I use a jig to plot the hole locations and drill them on a vertical mill with a stubby bit to avoid the usual 'wander' that you often get when drilling acrylic.

The Shift has fixed height toe wings and an adjustable height AFD so an alpine boot with the AFD up high will have a lot less delta angle than an AT boot with the AFD down low. The actual delta will vary between boot models but IIIRC Salomon quote the Shift delta as 2mm (ie with underside of the sole is 2mm higher at the heel than the toe) and my the measurements I've taken with various alpine boots match that. Most AT boots have 8/9mm of delta in the Shift.

With your Hawx WTR boots you first need to set up the forward pressure and toe height correctly. Note that the Hawx needs a bit of sole trimming to enable it to sit properly on the Shift AFD so make sure you do that - I posted some pics earlier in this thread showing where to trim etc.

Then measure the delta by clicking the boot in to the binding and measuring vertically from the ski base to the lowest point on the underside of the sole at both the toe and heel. Subtracting the toe height from the heel height = the Shift delta with your boot mounted on your skis - as by measuring from the ski base you're factoring in any difference the ski thickness under the toe compared to the heel. So, for example, if your Hawx have a delta of 4mm then and you want zero delta then you needs 4mm toe shims.

"Yep, I use a jig to plot the hole locations and drill them on a vertical mill with a stubby bit to avoid the usual 'wander' that you often get when drilling acrylic. "
Thanks for that, I have pretty good hand skills but now I know why I had such a hard time getting holes correct with a paper template and a drill press.

"With your Hawx WTR boots you first need to set up the forward pressure and toe height correctly. Note that the Hawx needs a bit of sole trimming to enable it to sit properly on the Shift AFD so make sure you do that - I posted some pics earlier in this thread showing where to trim etc."
Did that.

"Then measure the delta by clicking the boot in to the binding and measuring vertically from the ski base to the lowest point on the underside of the sole at both the toe and heel. Subtracting the toe height from the heel height = the Shift delta with your boot mounted on your skis - as by measuring from the ski base you're factoring in any difference the ski thickness under the toe compared to the heel. So, for example, if your Hawx have a delta of 4mm then and you want zero delta then you needs 4mm toe shims."

I'll look at this. But just standing in the XTD it feels like the WTR sole has has a positive external delta. The footboard already had a weird ramp angle under the heel that I flattened.
Thanks for the input.
If you are interested in selling shims, I'll be first in line.

The bottom sole method isn't really reliable IMO. For example, it'll have different measurements if you have your WTR or Alpine Soles (on the same boot, like the Lupo) even though the delta is the same. Top of toe lug is more consistent across boots

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Originally Posted by margotron

The bottom sole method isn't really reliable IMO. For example, it'll have different measurements if you have your WTR or Alpine Soles (on the same boot, like the Lupo) even though the delta is the same. Top of toe lug is more consistent across boots

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Your logic is only correct for MNC toes that have a adjustable height toe wings with the boot sitting on a fixed height AFD, like the Warden. On a Shift it's the other way around. And if the WTR toe on the Lupo makes the front of the boot 'taller' (compared to when the alpine sole is fitted) then the delta will be different. Delta is very boot model/sole specific and to get a true comparison it needs to be measured from a flat/horizontal surface, which is the base of the ski.

If you are really obsessed with duplicating the ramp on your alpine setup, I'd get a digital locking protractor like this and check the angle at the zeppa with the boots in the bindings:

https://www.zoro.com/fowler-protract...00/i/G0061225/

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Originally Posted by gregL

If you are really obsessed with duplicating the ramp on your alpine setup, I'd get a digital locking protractor like this and check the angle at the zeppa with the boots in the bindings:

https://www.zoro.com/fowler-protract...00/i/G0061225/

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Clinometer app on Android for free? .1 degree accuracy.

Of course, a corrolary of boot sole shape is where the plane of the boot board is, which is really what we care about. Anyone have an x-ray setup?

... Thom

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

Clinometer app on Android for free? .1 degree accuracy.

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Good idea, Thom. Just downloaded Bubble Level for iPhone and checked 3 boots on a level surface - it makes a difference where you place the phone, as some of the zeppas have more curve than others, but with an iPhone 8 as close to the middle of the boot as possible without the sides of the shell lifting the phone, I get 4.1 degrees for both the Lange XT Free 130 LV and Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 XTD (both listed as 4 degrees) and 3.8 degrees for the Tecnica Zero G Tour Pro. Should work pretty well for trying to match ramp with boots in bindings, too.

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Originally Posted by gregL

Good idea, Thom. Just downloaded Bubble Level for iPhone and checked 3 boots on a level surface - it makes a difference where you place the phone, as some of the zeppas have more curve than others, but with an iPhone 8 as close to the middle of the boot as possible without the sides of the shell lifting the phone, I get 4.1 degrees for both the Lange XT Free 130 LV and Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 XTD (both listed as 4 degrees) and 3.8 degrees for the Tecnica Zero G Tour Pro. Should work pretty well for trying to match ramp with boots in bindings, too.

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Good stuff, Greg. Were your reference points the workbench plane and the plane formed by the binding contact points at the toe and heel?

... Thom

I put a combination square flat on the zappa inside the boot, flush against the heel of the boot. You can then accurately measure the angle of the upright (or the top upright if you can't subtract 90) with your phone app.
I try to get a base line value with my alpine boot, then a good measurement of it in my alpine binding (P18s) and then I can shim my touring bindings accordingly.
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