Antiwork

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

The emphasis on personal responsibility is a scam that was concocted in a think tank funded by oil companies.

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Well certainly the attempts to get me to extend my personal responsibility beyond an agreed upon exchange of my labor for money are a scam.

“We are all one big family here at megacorp” …

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Well certainly the attempts to get me to extend my personal responsibility beyond an agreed upon exchange of my labor for money are a scam.

“We are all one big family here at megacorp” …

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But you take that away and people miss it, especially the younger demo. They want inclusion and belonging and a sense of community. I’m not advocating for that, I don’t really need those things myself, but pulling them into something more than just attaching cover sheets to TPS reports is a key part of attraction and retention.

You have to account for it and build it for reasons beyond just getting more for less. The cynical see it as corporate greed and it gives rise to “anti work,” the less cynical see it as building meaning and community and see “anti work” as just another word for disengagement.

It’s all a big muddy mess, right?

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

But you take that away and people miss it, especially the younger demo. They want inclusion and belonging and a sense of community. I’m not advocating for that, I don’t really need those things myself, but pulling them into something more than just attaching cover sheets to TPS reports is a key part of attraction and retention.

You have to account for it and build it for reasons beyond just getting more for less. The cynical see it as corporate greed and it gives rise to “anti work,” the less cynical see it as building meaning and community and see “anti work” as just another word for disengagement.

It’s all a big muddy mess, right?

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You are way off on this one.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

You are way off on this one.

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Indubitably, but I’m here for the discussion and to explore competing viewpoints so I can realign mine where warranted, so care to share yours?

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Well certainly the attempts to get me to extend my personal responsibility beyond an agreed upon exchange of my labor for money are a scam.

“We are all one big family here at megacorp” …

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

But you take that away and people miss it, especially the younger demo. They want inclusion and belonging and a sense of community. I’m not advocating for that, I don’t really need those things myself, but pulling them into something more than just attaching cover sheets to TPS reports is a key part of attraction and retention.

You have to account for it and build it for reasons beyond just getting more for less. The cynical see it as corporate greed and it gives rise to “anti work,” the less cynical see it as building meaning and community and see “anti work” as just another word for disengagement.

It’s all a big muddy mess, right?

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People want respect and reasonable expectations. They do not want to be patronized by fake or forced company culture. Company intent and employee interpretation matters. Corporate greed is real. It doesn't take a cynic to see it.

Several times you suggested or implied people should want more; that you don't understand what you perceive as lack of ambition. The reality is some people are content doing what they do. They want to go to work, punch a clock, and leave. I've worked with a bunch of them. They don't want to move up. They don't expect more than COL or negotiated raises. They are not interested in pizza parties or growing the company or the next rung on the ladder. They want to do their job and go home. Provide opportunity for more but be willing to move on when more is not their goal.

Yeah, there’s a big difference between “culture” and actual workplace culture that’s not built around pizza parties and mandatory fun off sites.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

People want respect and reasonable expectations. They do not want to be patronized by fake or forced company culture. Company intent and employee interpretation matters. Corporate greed is real. It doesn't take a cynic to see it.

Several times you suggested or implied people should want more; that you don't understand what you perceive as lack of ambition. The reality is some people are content doing what they do. They want to go to work, punch a clock, and leave. I've worked with a bunch of them. They don't want to move up. They don't expect more than COL or negotiated raises. They are not interested in pizza parties or growing the company or the next rung on the ladder. They want to do their job and go home. Provide opportunity for more but be willing to move on when more is not the goal.

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Corporate greed is real, sure. But building culture with intent isn’t just cynical, it’s also something that you do if you give a shit about your employees. We’re conflating doing that poorly with whether or not it should be done at all, and that conflation seems below the level of this conversation, especially with you characters.

And I agree that some people just wanna punch that clock. That is just fine and we need Marge in accounting who just wants to work AP for the next 20 years so she can take two/three vacations a year and retire comfortably. And yeah, I don’t fully understand it because I tend to be pretty driven. Doesn’t mean I don’t accept it.

But you know what? The correlation between those who (edit!) DON’T give a shit about culture and pizza parties and growing the company and those who just want to work the job they have for the next 20 years isn’t 1. Marge in accounting is often the one who loudest bemoans the fact that we had to cancel the company picnic because of COVID. What I also know is that those who move the needle and want to grow and contribute to the company beyond just punching the clock are also very likely to give a shit about culture and engagement and mission. So you gotta build it, and it isn’t just bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Corporate greed is real, sure. But building culture with intent isn’t just cynical, it’s also something that you do if you give a shit about your employees. We’re conflating doing that poorly with whether or not it should be done at all, and that conflation seems below the level of this conversation, especially with you characters.

And I agree that some people just wanna punch that clock. That is just fine and we need Marge in accounting who just wants to work AP for the next 20 years so she can take two/three vacations a year and retire comfortably. And yeah, I don’t fully understand it because I tend to be pretty driven. Doesn’t mean I don’t accept it.

But you know what? The correlation between those who (edit!) DON’T give a shit about culture and pizza parties and growing the company and those who just want to work the job they have for the next 20 years isn’t 1. Marge in accounting is often the one who loudest bemoans the fact that we had to cancel the company picnic because of COVID. What I also know is that those who move the needle and want to grow and contribute to the company beyond just punching the clock are also very likely to give a shit about culture and engagement and mission. So you gotta build it, and it isn’t just bullshit.

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Here is the thing I think you are missing.

Many, many people now clearly see that working harder and being driven to grow the company is a one sided transaction that results often is work-life balance issues (long hours, stress, etc) and is only translating into earnings for the top.

I think you have a bit of an edge case on your hands where someone doesn’t quite understand the opportunity to learn and grow they are being given. Many people experience downsizing or organizational growth that results in additional expectations, hours, stress, availability requirements and no additional compensation. They are rightly calling it bullshit.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Here is the thing I think you are missing.

Many, many people now clearly see that working harder and being driven to grow the company is a one sided transaction that results often is work-life balance issues (long hours, stress, etc) and is only translating into earnings for the top.

I think you have a bit of an edge case on your hands where someone doesn’t quite understand the opportunity to learn and grow they are being given. Many people experience downsizing or organizational growth that results in additional expectations, hours, stress, availability requirements and no additional compensation. They are rightly calling it bullshit.

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Nailed it. And it's hard to pin down what company is going to do what until you've been there at least a little while. Our house is a good example. My wife had been at a company since college (15+ yrs) and they had some layoffs. She got extra work including middle of the night zoom calls as it was an international company. No extra pay. After a couple years of that, she quit. They still call her occasionally to come back and are paying someone with no experience who had been with the company less than a quarter of the tenure more. Lame.

I busted my ass for a number of years for my company and received a pat on the back and unsolicited equity grants that if they perform, will pay for a majority of my retirement. All luck of the draw I guess.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Here is the thing I think you are missing.

Many, many people now clearly see that working harder and being driven to grow the company is a one sided transaction that results often is work-life balance issues (long hours, stress, etc) and is only translating into earnings for the top.

I think you have a bit of an edge case on your hands where someone doesn’t quite understand the opportunity to learn and grow they are being given. Many people experience downsizing or organizational growth that results in additional expectations, hours, stress, availability requirements and no additional compensation. They are rightly calling it bullshit.

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I recognize my anecdote for what it is, but it isn’t the only example I have. I’ve seen several examples that speak to a line of rationalization that I only rarely encountered in the past but seem to see more frequently these days, with promotions and more money (for the same hours) being turned down because they imagine whatever it is they’re being asked to do is worth a lot more than we’re offering. Which, per the marketplace, it simply isn’t, and in terms of their career progression and stated goals, is counterproductive.

It’s interesting, that’s all. I don’t see it as a huge problem where I work, but it has confounded me a few times the last few months.

I’m not at all against “anti work” or “quiet quitting” and pushing back against what you describe. I’ve seen that too. All I’m saying is that this broad brush we’re painting with is too broad. Culture and team building and commitment and shared mission isn’t the issue, and the anti work movement, such that it exists, seems to be ripe for misapplication.

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Originally Posted by Not DJSapp

If they can hack it, yes. Granted, it doesn't take a whole lot to successfully manage a seasoned foreman. It's the classic wet behind the ears Lieutenant being the boss of the 30 year Sgt. So long at Lt. has enough sense to get Sarge whatever the hell he needs when he needs it, Lt is going to be a success.

We also count the first 3 months of a Field Engineer's career as an internship if they haven't interned for us before, so they could be a graduate.

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Perfect picture of why "safety" and welfare are disconnected.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. And I don't foresee much of a change as we age and mature. Very few folks my age want a family down the line. Granted, that is a timeless platitude for folks my age throughout history but I think we are the ones who actually follow through with it. Population decline and childbirth rates suggest it is already happening. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.

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So why is student loan debt such a problem?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So why is student loan debt such a problem?

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This is a problem with older generations. A representative of a younger generation is giving some insight and the elders choose to question it instead of just shutting the fuck up and listening.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So why is student loan debt such a problem?

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Is this a trick question?

I assume it’s because having more money gives you the freedom to buy and do more of the things that make you happiest. (Which could include ‘buying’ less work.)

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

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That ain't new. 24 hours on and 6 days off is what prompted me to join the FD all those years ago.

Yeah, GenXers felt the same way.

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. And I don't foresee much of a change as we age and mature. Very few folks my age want a family down the line. Granted, that is a timeless platitude for folks my age throughout history but I think we are the ones who actually follow through with it. Population decline and childbirth rates suggest it is already happening. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.

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excellent

most old fuckers don't get it cause they were told to work hard and the company would take care of you then you can buy an rv and goto europe when you retire but have kids and work hard first right?

I'm so glad I fucked off so well when I was in my 20s always broke but it was worth it
just walked off a number of jobs or did a no call no show I quit type thing

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So why is student loan debt such a problem?

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because kids are being told they need to goto college if they don't they are a failure
so kids who have no reason to goto college do and rack up tons of debt
goes back to learning a trade why waste the time in college when someone is willing to teach you how to be a mechanic or an electrician
my buddy has a million dollar home in san jose ca never went to school just became an electrician

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

That ain't new. 24 hours on and 6 days off is what prompted me to join the FD all those years ago.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Yeah, GenXers felt the same way.

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I realize it isn't a new idea but what is new is the number of the workforce that subscribe to it.

Gig economy is playing into it a bit too, I think. You don’t have to be a part of some large corporation and make that your identity these days.

Times, they might actually be a-changin….

But I’m not making it up and I’m not lying when I say that, particularly the younger workforce and for some of those very same reasons, generally are looking for something more meaningful than “we make these widgets.” They want to belong to something and they want it to matter. THAT’S why we are building culture and engagement and after hours socials and community service days and volunteer opportunities and all that. Not because we’re getting them to work more hours for less, but because we want good people who will stay a bit and build a career.

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

I realize it isn't a new idea but what is new is the number of the workforce that subscribe to it.

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Yeah, and it's organized. The internet existed when I got my first "career track" job, but it wasn't anything like what it is today.

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Originally Posted by fastfred

my buddy has a million dollar home in san jose ca

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pretty dilapidated then, huh?

I totally agree with what youre saying, btw. Trades are great and soooo many sales/business minded folk wasting their lives in cubicles for mediocre pay could be making very good money learning a trade and turning it into their own business 5-10yrs down the line and make a killing. Its an excellent career path for a wide range of people. But, what i was questioning is that every generation is more educated than last, and has more student debt than the last. So when he says that his younger generation has low expenses and plenty to spend on toys the question i have is what about student loans? Doesnt fit the narrative of crushing student loan debt (which i am very aware is real).

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

pretty dilapidated then, huh?

I totally agree with what youre saying, btw. Trades are great and soooo many sales/business minded folk wasting their lives in cubicles for mediocre pay could be making very good money learning a trade and turning it into their own business 5-10yrs down the line and make a killing. Its an excellent career path for a wide range of people. But, what i was questioning is that every generation is more educated than last, and has more student debt than the last. So when he says that his younger generation has low expenses and plenty to spend on toys the question i have is what about student loans? Doesnt fit the narrative of crushing student loan debt (which i am very aware is real).

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there is no plenty, thats the thing. i erred by making it sound like there is rampant consumerism by my generation, which i think is only true for a small minority. honestly, i think we are far more experience-driven than materialistic. but that is beside the point.

i think education being an industry, and one that markets very well, is the root cause of the student debt. we are force fed the idea that we have to go to college to be successful from kindergarten through senior year of high school. and so lots of us do, by any means necessary. but then we realize that we have no idea what we want to do, end up choosing a singular field of study on a whim, and then enter an inundated job market pertaining to that field of study, only to find out that there are either no jobs or that the work is actually miserable and not at all what we want to do. there is also the person who knows what they want to do, gets a useless degree, realizes that what they wanted to do pays nothing, and thus gets put into longterm debt.

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. .

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The whole post was excellent.

I wonder how much of this attitude is driven on the supply (employer) end rather than the demand (worker) end. Work has objectively become more transactional, and the whole economy has become more demanding since, say, the 60s. Why would someone feel any loyalty to a company that barely provides any benefits, offers no pension, and actively works to undermine the social safety net while also working to further lower its taxes and those of its executives, who are also getting bigger bonuses than ever?

Everyone loves to say that the younger generations don't want to work. Well, maybe it's because the olds made work so fucking shitty that only a fool would fall for the scam.

I also think some of you aren't really grasping the depth of despair young people feel. They REALLY don't see a future for them or any progeny they might have. If you really believe, to the core, that the world is going to be a smoldering waste when you reach "retirement" age, your whole life calculation changes.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Corporate greed is real, sure. But building culture with intent isn’t just cynical, it’s also something that you do if you give a shit about your employees. We’re conflating doing that poorly with whether or not it should be done at all, and that conflation seems below the level of this conversation, especially with you characters.

And I agree that some people just wanna punch that clock. That is just fine and we need Marge in accounting who just wants to work AP for the next 20 years so she can take two/three vacations a year and retire comfortably. And yeah, I don’t fully understand it because I tend to be pretty driven. Doesn’t mean I don’t accept it.

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Holy shit.

I'm Marge in accounting.

:D

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. And I don't foresee much of a change as we age and mature. Very few folks my age want a family down the line. Granted, that is a timeless platitude for folks my age throughout history but I think we are the ones who actually follow through with it. Population decline and childbirth rates suggest it is already happening. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.

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Wait. I'm not Marge. I'm apparently Gen-Z.

:D

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Originally Posted by fastfred

<snip>
my buddy has a million dollar home in san jose ca never went to school just became an electrician

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Million dollar home in San Jose:

Attachment 424725

In terms of culture: it's on management to do the work first and actually be honest about it. A lot of "culture building" breaks down to "come enjoy us half assing a work event with 1 free drink and some shitty apps as we don't want to actually spend real money on this" or some other theme of using people free time on work stuff.

I like my coworkers fine, but there's very few I want to spend my limited free time with and given the choice between family, hobbies and coworkers I'm picking not work.

If you truly want to build investment in the company, most companies need to do a hell of a lot better on equitable equity grants and transparency around bonus, comp, performance and company performance. You can't build a high performance culture with legacy shitheads sitting on their asses and reaping the rewards of subordinates performance.

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

I might be about to pull an anti work move here in a minute. System says our team is gonna be here till 6am. Tomorrow is my last day. Do I say fuck it and walk out?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

I might be about to pull an anti work move here in a minute. System says our team is gonna be here till 6am. Tomorrow is my last day. Do I say fuck it and walk out?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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If it screws your coworkers, stay. If it just screws the company who cares

Stuck it out. They ended up offering lift and truck drivers time and a half to pick orders until we finished, so it was only 13 hours of deadlifts and cleans.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by schuss

In terms of culture: it's on management to do the work first and actually be honest about it. A lot of "culture building" breaks down to "come enjoy us half assing a work event with 1 free drink and some shitty apps as we don't want to actually spend real money on this" or some other theme of using people free time on work stuff.

I like my coworkers fine, but there's very few I want to spend my limited free time with and given the choice between family, hobbies and coworkers I'm picking not work.

If you truly want to build investment in the company, most companies need to do a hell of a lot better on equitable equity grants and transparency around bonus, comp, performance and company performance. You can't build a high performance culture with legacy shitheads sitting on their asses and reaping the rewards of subordinates performance.

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

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Nailed it.

Legacy shitheads…. I’m totally stealing that term haha

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Originally Posted by schuss

In terms of culture: it's on management to do the work first and actually be honest about it. A lot of "culture building" breaks down to "come enjoy us half assing a work event with 1 free drink and some shitty apps as we don't want to actually spend real money on this" or some other theme of using people free time on work stuff.

I like my coworkers fine, but there's very few I want to spend my limited free time with and given the choice between family, hobbies and coworkers I'm picking not work.

If you truly want to build investment in the company, most companies need to do a hell of a lot better on equitable equity grants and transparency around bonus, comp, performance and company performance. You can't build a high performance culture with legacy shitheads sitting on their asses and reaping the rewards of subordinates performance.

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

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Agreed on all counts.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

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I work as a construction PM for a large firm, and related to a lot of what was said earlier in this thread. in terms of the quote above here, I had a competing offer for another company, brought it back to my Exec. and negotiated more at my current spot. They gave me about 50% of what I was slated to make by jumping ship, but I didn't really want to jump ship to begin with, just felt like I was underpaid so was somewhat happy with the small bump and keeping up with the status quo.

A few months go by and my Ops manager sets up a meeting with me, I go into her office and she starts reaming me for "running my mouth" about them negotiating with me, falsely accused me of telling others to go get competing offers to try and better their own salary, etc.... she proceeds to say that "it's not our policy to match salary, you're lucky we did it with you, I've had to let a bunch of good people walk bc we don't normally do this, idk what it is about your generation feeling entitled to more money,".. meanwhile they're freaking out bc tons of people are actually leaving and she can't staff our projects properly, so I say to her:

A. it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people talk about this stuff nowadays - but for the record I was not encouraging others to get competing offers; if anything I'm a positive example for you bc I took less money to stay here with this firm;

B. if you're telling me it's not your policy to match salaries, but in the same sentence tell me you're worried about people leaving, maybe you ought to re-think YOUR policy; the market is red hot with companies looking for talent, it's no secret that people can make $40k more by going to the guy down the street

I agree with the perspective of feeling like we're stuck in an overall failing system, and that the gaps in pay between the top tier staff and the bottom tier make it even worse. sure us millennials may feel entitled to a little more, but we work out of the most profitable office in our company and we don't get shit as a thank you, they pay us as little as possible while expecting 50-60 hours of work per week in roles that sometimes suck... I was in our business development dept. for a few years, I know how much we make in profit every year, and it makes me sick that our employees get the shaft over and over again

I understand the school of thought in re: not matching offers, but that only works if they actually keep pay scales current and fair and competitive. If you’re at a fair rate and can reasonably be replaced for that rate, and you’re shopping and getting offers and really want to go do that, then go. There’s a difference between matching offers and adjusting pay scales based on new and updated information.

Also, she’s wandering into some territory that will eventually run afoul of the NLRA. You have to make peace with employees discussing rate of pay, and the only way to really be at peace with it is to have a realistic idea of the marketplace and be able to sell what you’re offering.

There’s a lot of work and administrative culture built around secrecy and black boxes and mystery and that grates on me, and you see it rear its head in these conversations. I continue to gently push for wage transparency at my workplace, along with peer data and a more open discussion of how we set wages. It’s not catching on like wildfire and there are some who still staunchly oppose it. I think the decision will eventually be made for us….

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Originally Posted by Boosh

I work as a construction PM for a large firm, and related to a lot of what was said earlier in this thread. in terms of the quote above here, I had a competing offer for another company, brought it back to my Exec. and negotiated more at my current spot. They gave me about 50% of what I was slated to make by jumping ship, but I didn't really want to jump ship to begin with, just felt like I was underpaid so was somewhat happy with the small bump and keeping up with the status quo.

A few months go by and my Ops manager sets up a meeting with me, I go into her office and she starts reaming me for "running my mouth" about them negotiating with me, falsely accused me of telling others to go get competing offers to try and better their own salary, etc.... she proceeds to say that "it's not our policy to match salary, you're lucky we did it with you, I've had to let a bunch of good people walk bc we don't normally do this, idk what it is about your generation feeling entitled to more money,".. meanwhile they're freaking out bc tons of people are actually leaving and she can't staff our projects properly, so I say to her:

A. it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people talk about this stuff nowadays - but for the record I was not encouraging others to get competing offers; if anything I'm a positive example for you bc I took less money to stay here with this firm;

B. if you're telling me it's not your policy to match salaries, but in the same sentence tell me you're worried about people leaving, maybe you ought to re-think YOUR policy; the market is red hot with companies looking for talent, it's no secret that people can make $40k more by going to the guy down the street

I agree with the perspective of feeling like we're stuck in an overall failing system, and that the gaps in pay between the top tier staff and the bottom tier make it even worse. sure us millennials may feel entitled to a little more, but we work out of the most profitable office in our company and we don't get shit as a thank you, they pay us as little as possible while expecting 50-60 hours of work per week in roles that sometimes suck... I was in our business development dept. for a few years, I know how much we make in profit every year, and it makes me sick that our employees get the shaft over and over again

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You probably should have taken that other job...

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

I understand the school of thought in re: not matching offers, but that only works if they actually keep pay scales current and fair and competitive. If you’re at a fair rate and can reasonably be replaced for that rate, and you’re shopping and getting offers and really want to go do that, then go. There’s a difference between matching offers and adjusting pay scales based on new and updated information.

Also, she’s wandering into some territory that will eventually run afoul of the NLRA. You have to make peace with employees discussing rate of pay, and the only way to really be at peace with it is to have a realistic idea of the marketplace and be able to sell what you’re offering.

There’s a lot of work and administrative culture built around secrecy and black boxes and mystery and that grates on me, and you see it rear its head in these conversations. I continue to gently push for wage transparency at my workplace, along with peer data and a more open discussion of how we set wages. It’s not catching on like wildfire and there are some who still staunchly oppose it. I think the decision will eventually be made for us….

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I was just coming out of college in the great recession, so IDK. How much did loyalty and the established precedent of being a hard worker going above and beyond factor into job retention when the shit started hitting the fan?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I was just coming out of college in the great recession, so IDK. How much did loyalty and the established precedent of being a hard worker going above and beyond factor into job retention when the shit started hitting the fan?

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Me too.

I’ll have people (sometimes employees) talk about leaving for whatever reason, but they feel so bad because they’re really gonna put us into a bind, and then offer to come in and help if we need it over the next couple months. I’ll gently remind them that if they end up having a hard time making their mortgage payment in a couple months, we probably aren’t going to offer to help them with it, so just focus on their next step and feel good about it.

Though to be fair, it’s not that different from offering a severance upon layoffs, etc.

To your question, those who work hard and add value are going to get more consideration than those who slack off; is that commensurate with extra effort? Depends on the situation, probably. It’s an employee’s market right now, I expect it’ll eventually shift back. But maybe it won’t? These dynamics shift dramatically depending on where the leverage is, my goal is to generally be as insulated from all of that as possible because I have kids to feed and shit.

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Originally Posted by stealurface831

Stuck it out. They ended up offering lift and truck drivers time and a half to pick orders until we finished, so it was only 13 hours of deadlifts and cleans.


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Someone get this kid a cookie.

He earned it.


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