If only there was something we could do...

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Originally Posted by Summit

For all the "OMG Johnny can't drink at 18 but he can shoot!"

We could increase the right of voting age back from 18 to 21 in combination with making the right of firearm ownership age 21, plus throw in MJ legal at 21 too? ;)

Or maybe we would like to standardize all that, and drinking, at 19?

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As long long as they never take away the right for 50 year old men to fuck 18 year old 'woman'.

Priorities.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

China has had dozens of school attacks in the past decade
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China
, but fewer deaths per incident because knives and hammers and cleavers are harder to kill with.

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And we've had dozens this year.

China also has 4x the population of the US.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

You make "assault weapons" Class 3. It accomplishes everything you want.

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I knew you could say something that wasn't dumb

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Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

The top Senate Republican put the blame clearly on the shooter, whom he described as a “deranged young man” and “maniac,” echoing the views of many Republicans that mental illness is the root cause of many of these recurring tragedies.

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FWIW, the biggest common denominator in mass shootings is hatred of women and a history of domestic violence. Most shooters kill a close female right before their shooting spree. Gun control aimed at individuals convicted of misdemeanor stalking, sexual assault, and domestic violence is probably one of the more effective ways to mitigate large-scale acts of violence.

source: https://www.californialawreview.org/...-path-forward/

Also armed guards won't work. They ran away in Parkland, and this shooter was actively engaged by law enforcement and still went on their rampage. If your proposal is "more cops", it's already been relatively proven to be ineffective.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

couldn't a gun smith do it pretty easy at my kitchen table and aren't there lots of gunsmiths in America trained by the army ?

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Converting a semi to an auto (illegally manufacturing and transferring a machine gun) and illegally possessing an auto carries extraordinary penalties, typically 5-10 years in prison, fines, and losing the right to ever own a gun for both the gunsmith and the owner.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

couldn't a gun smith do it pretty easy at my kitchen table and aren't there lots of gunsmiths in America trained by the army ?

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to do it at your kitchen table you’d need the full auto sear which, fir like the ar15 is a machine gun, is illegal to own unless you are properly licensed. Most of the things I’ve seen require modification in a light machine shop - the modification into full auto being illegal unless you are properly licensed. And it’s not easy to find a place to shoot one, unless you have an illegal suppressor. Sad funny watching the gun dorks who smoke weed illegally bragging about the power of background checks.

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Originally Posted by skiJ

I said it above, and I will say it again, schools are attacked Because they are the easiest targets ( churches, too ) -
the children have not done anything, they are just undefended targets.

we can Start by making schools safer - restricted access. Not prison- or 'Pentagon'- secure, but I would not be opposed to single-entry.

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No. One of the things that makes America great is that pretty much everything is soft targets. Everything is cheaper and more efficient when you live in a secure state that is not a security state. We could all live behind walls and drive armored vehicles and have checkpoints to enter secure areas. All the valuable things we leave laying around like cars on the street, copper powerlines, ATMs, etc could all be locked away. Well, some things like powerlines we'd do without, but you could have a generator.

Moving to a security state or police state is the wrong direction. There's a part of our society that wants to fear the rest of society. Fear is a plague we need to work against so everyone can have a good free life.

Since 1986, nobody is licensed to create a machine gun (new or by modification) unless you are making it for a government.

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Originally Posted by Summit

That says that 309 deaths occurred due to mass shootings between 2005 and 2017 (out of ~34 million all cause deaths) and would like to correlate that to the end of the AWB?

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The parameters of what's considered a mass shoot have been fluid. The 430 that chart depicts is way on the low end. Current general consensus is 1350ish from 2009 to 2021.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

There are about 88,000 elementary schools in America. If the proposal is armed guards to protect a single-entry point, each school needs enough trained and armed guards to face a gunman in body armor. Maybe, four? So ~350,000 guards. More than the army that occupied Iraq. Whether a person is for or against the idea, that's just what it is.

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no, Multi- and I believe I was clear about this - we are not turning schools into prisons - and the physical facility can be modified to greatly limit access.

Single entry, designed for security. the attractive entryways may have to go away.
Would I trade school Security for an attractive entry ?
Twenty years ago. And Tomorrow
( it can't be done by tomorrow. but it could be done by September )

it's Not a one-size fits all situation -
one of my nearby elementary schools has less than fifty students. Not fifty per annual class ( graduating classes often less than ten students )
Some of you have fifty times ( 50x) that many students.

Every community already has law enforcement -
Maybe school Safety becomes a priority ( many communities have law enforcement with Special training... )
I am not going to support staffing a school with fifty students with four guards. But If access is restricted, and a qualified Safety staff-er is on-site at least two hours daily, I believe the school may be/can be safer.

my idea is restricted access ; it is Not armed guards.
If you need law enforcement, call 911.


thanks. tj

you aren't suposed to kill people either

just sayin

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

The parameters of what's considered a mass shoot have been fluid. The 430 that chart depicts is way on the low end. Current general consensus is 1350ish from 2009 to 2021.

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I thot it was 1 shooter killing at least 4 people to b a mass shooting

LSL - what is your solution ?


tj

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

The parameters of what's considered a mass shoot have been fluid. The 430 that chart depicts is way on the low end. Current general consensus is 1350ish from 2009 to 2021.

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We agree "mass shooting" is a nebulous category because if you want it to seem like a huge issue you define it in a way that the numbers are large... but composed almost entirely of gang/drug related crime: some firearm policy advocates would like to tell you that there HUNDREDS of mass shootings every year, but they are counting two people shot at a convenience store robbery or 4 people shot in a gang/drug driveby while actually trying to elicit in the mind of their audience that these are all random acts of violence on the order of school shootings.

If you want to look at stats in a way seemingly related to the AWB, you choose something more related to the type of shooting that most people think of when you say "mass shooting," but then the number is in cold rational terms a tiny tiny fraction of firearm deaths. 1350 deaths over 13 years is still very small statistically speaking. But mass shootings are needless tragedy and loss hyperconcentrated and this attracts media attention in a way gang shootings do not.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Since 1986, nobody is licensed to create a machine gun (new or by modification) unless you are making it for a government.

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This is a machine gun
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...15-machine-gun
you can find plans for it and ones like it online. Not terribly hard to make. As you said the penalties can be stiff if you do.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I thot it was 1 shooter killing at least 4 people to b a mass shooting

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_s..._United_States

edit: @ summit, I wasn't arguing with you. Just saw the chart, immediately suspected bs, and you were the last person talking about it.

I think we can all agree that the statistical significance when it comes to school children is irrelevant. ONE is too many. If America needs to be made great again, the first order of business should be that kids don't get shot.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

This is a machine gun
https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...15-machine-gun
you can find plans for it and ones like it online

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You are correct. That literally IS a machine gun, legally. It is pre-86 and not new.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

I've never seen one of those in real life. Insanely common. I've never encountered one.


I'm not sure why blame the inanimate objects that can't change anyones brain chemistry is any more logical than blaming the meds, but hey you guys are going to do what you find emotionally gratifying.I don't think you guys give a half a shit about solving any problems. I think you just get hard at the idea of taking peoples guns away because thats how you are.

You guys just get hard at the thought of more laws less freedom, tons of cops searching schoolkids backpacks and arresting them for non dangerous offenses as a result. Two posts above me just advocated for removing all windows from the exterior of schools and placing anti tank barricades around them. Jesus fucking christ that will harm more kids than mass shooters do.


So the gun industry is great to demonize, but the pharma industry is a sacred cow. You guys just say what you find emotionally gratifying. I just don't get why the pharma industry has their dick in al your mouths.

I bet you guys don't even let your kids go trick or treating any more.

The biggest flaw in many of your ideas about guns is they just aren't going to happen. "ban everything but bolt actions" is so fucking far out there and radical all that idea is going to do is create division and have a negative effect on our country as a whole. I think thats what you get off on though. 78 people die every day from opioid overdose, but yea pharma companies cant' be criticized because when people do so I think of them as right wing conspiracy types and don't like those people so instead I'll just waaaah wahhh about my fellow citizens being able to own guns.

Personally I trust my fellow citizens more than the government. I think we should hand out an AR15 and a green card to every immigrant crossing our southern border.

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Pretty sure everyone calling for better gun control is also holding pharmaceutical companies responsible for their part in the opioid epidemic. Your bullshit post doesn’t compute. It’s also packed with hyperbole, gaslighting and personal attacks on the people that don’t agree with you. King Strawman laying it down.


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Originally Posted by dunfree

Sad funny watching the gun dorks who smoke weed illegally bragging about the power of background checks.

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It's a background check not a drug test. Try and keep up.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4741996c47.jpg

Republican governor blaming it on mental issues now.....the status quo will remain, nothing will change. Both parties blow.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

It's a background check not a drug test. Try and keep up.

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Seems like the simplest thing to implement.

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Originally Posted by hikesalot

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4741996c47.jpg

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I've seen this floating around. It is fucking stupid when pro-gun-control people put it forward thinking that it will sway anyone in their favor because they are putting forward the horrible treatment of a woman as though it was OK and thus OK to do to someone wanting to purchase a firearm.

Is it good when pro-choice people put it forward? It makes a solid point, but what is issue of the day?

How about we don't subject women who want an abortion to that horseshit AND not link these issues? That's my vote as someone who is Pro-Choice and generally Pro-2A.

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

No. One of the things that makes America great is that pretty much everything is soft targets. Everything is cheaper and more efficient when you live in a secure state that is not a security state. We could all live behind walls and drive armored vehicles and have checkpoints to enter secure areas. All the valuable things we leave laying around like cars on the street, copper powerlines, ATMs, etc could all be locked away. Well, some things like powerlines we'd do without, but you could have a generator.

Moving to a security state or police state is the wrong direction. There's a part of our society that wants to fear the rest of society. Fear is a plague we need to work against so everyone can have a good free life.

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I believe the parameters of what constitute a secure state, a security state ( or a police state ? ) have changed in the last twenty years -

' Fear is a plague we need to work against so everyone can have a good free life. ' sounds great !
Fear did not kill twenty children in Texas yesterday.

Hate is the plague I see -
bigotry and racism.

I "fear" law enforcement - and I have worked with them in emergency response situations for thirty years...

we can make schools safer
( we better make schools safer ) ! !!!

I read an interview with an new freshman from a metropolitan city, coming to a nearby college -
One of his criteria for selecting Finlandia was he 'believed it would be Safe. '

Fear is one of those veiled-insults that kills construction -

Hate is the plague I see.


What's your solution ? Because my impression of a "secure state" is very different than it was twenty-one years ago and forty years ago...

... a good (free) life. ain't free.


respectfully. tj

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Originally Posted by hikesalot

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4741996c47.jpg

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If Roe isn't settled law, neither is Heller

Attachment 417368

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Originally Posted by skiJ

What's your solution ? Because my impression of a "secure state" is very different than it was twenty-one years ago and forty years ago...

... a good (free) life. ain't free.

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Well 20 and especially 40 years ago this was a WAY more dangerous country. More muder. More rape. More kidnappings. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Summit

What the fuck do you expect? Less than 24 hours out of the senseless horrific and tragic murders of 19 young children and a teacher at school, everyone is just going to turn off their emotions and focus on a cold, rationale, reasonable, and achievable gun policy in a left leaning internet forum?

Most everyone knows you you struggle with understanding how most humans react and interact. This is a reminder to you of your blindness.

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Nah I'm just removed from it because I don't watch the news. It does help keep things in perspective. Humans were not meant to experience the outrage from events so far flung to them that we get by experiencing them via video etc on the news. Its not bad to have empathy, but this level of outrage and connection to events that do not involve you isn't healthy, nor is it a sign of higher levels of compassion or enlightenment. We should call it what it is, and imbalance caused by saturation of info of all the fucked up shit thats going on in the world.

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Originally Posted by Summit

I've seen this floating around. It is fucking stupid when pro-gun-control people put it forward thinking that it will sway anyone in their favor because they are putting forward the horrible treatment of a woman as though it was OK and thus OK to do to someone wanting to purchase a firearm.

Is it good when pro-choice people put it forward? It makes a solid point, but what is issue of the day?

How about we don't subject women who want an abortion to that horseshit AND not link these issues? That's my vote as someone who is Pro-Choice and generally Pro-2A.

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Agreed it’s not ok for those seeking abortion. But the hypocrisy of pro-lifers putting these measures in place but also not wanting to put anything in place for gun control is maddening. And that quote speaks to that.

Beto crashes presser


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Originally Posted by Summit

That's my vote as someone who is Pro-Choice and generally Pro-2A.

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In what possible way could you be 'pro 2a'? It is the most terribly written and interpreted POS legislation ever written. You could be pro gun-ownership and still advocate relegating it into the dustbin of history. Or can we go back to the well regulated militias part? If so, then sure. Put me in pro 2a meaning 'well regulated' too.

The free for all clusterfuck that allows the flooding the zone of technicality bullshit gets us nowhere. Handguns... suck. Assault weapons.... suck. 350m weapons circulating unchecked really sucks and so does the fact that a troubled person can legally go get whatever they want and they're not a criminal until some 4th grader is dead.

database
background checks
insurance
buy backs

it is not hard to do if people are sick of seeing a homicide rate not commensurate with 'the greatest country on earth'.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless

It's a background check not a drug test. Try and keep up.

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So you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about Bobby littledick? How new! What’s a prohibited person Bobby? Would that be an unlawful user of any controlled substance?

I think that parts dumb, but it’s still part of the law, and shows how pointless your argument is.

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Originally Posted by schuss

Get the fuck out of here with the "whataboutism". The presence of other terrible acts does not mean we can't fix or seek to address other, less terrible acts. Your stance is "terrible things have happened in history, therefore nothing matters."

You have yet to offer anything of value to the conversation from a counterposition standpoint - whether it's data, meaningful points or otherwise. I'm happy to engage in debate when it's done in good faith. You're just throwing shit at the wall to try to distract from talking about firearms. At no point did I declare your points wholly invalid, I stated my position that there was no reason for firearms beyond bolt action from a "tool usage" standpoint. If you have meaningful counterpoints, fucking make them already.

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No my stance is those terrible thigns happen to unarmed populations. There is more nuance to history than you believe. You guys believe gun control will solve our problems because you're experiencing emotional reactions to a fucked up situation. There is no indication that your efforts will be successful in removing guns from a country with almost 500 million of them, or in making it safer, other than you emotionally want to believe that would be true. There is also no consideration of anything other than believing that it would be unequivocally good. No idea of long term vs short term benefits, just an idyllic vision that this would be great and we'd all get to be safe because its 100% about the guns and nothing else because pharma companies are a sacred cow and everything that is fucked up with how we as a society raise people and raise our children is less gratifying to rant about.

I'm fine supporting reasonable common sense gun measures, but those don't include anything that creates a registry or de facto registry of gun owners. A nice old gent who fought in the Dutch Resistance in WWII gave a talk at my school in college, when asked what we should do to prevent it happening in the USA, he said don't have gun registries, he then described watching the Nazis go door to door demanding peoples guns and if you couldn't produce the item they had listed the shot the male head of household and asked again.

I think they are just going to keep taking rights and freedoms from us progressively and see how much we will put up with. Roe v wade being a significant erosion of the rights of the individual to have autonomy instead of safety before they even exist. If we don't stop squabbling over which rights are precious to us and which we think are stupid they're going to keep taking them from us. Regardless of our feelings about guns and wanting a safer world, we need to apply them to the world we actually live in, where both the left and right wing of our political apparatus have low approval ratins, low levels of trust, are basically openly owned by companies with ties to hostile authoritarian foriegn powers, and our country is becoming increasingly destabilized and divided. The only thing the L and R wing politicians seem to agree on is making this coutnry become increasingly authoritarian. With this being reality I don't see now as being a time to ban all guns unless you're a grown man clutching a teddy bear.

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Originally Posted by Peruvian

Attachment 417368

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Published 21 times and counting...

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Nah I'm just removed from it because I don't watch the news ... this level of outrage and connection to events that do not involve you isn't healthy, nor is it a sign of higher levels of compassion or enlightenment.

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I don't mean this offensively, but are you on the spectrum?

You seem only capable of looking at your own perspective and extending that to how you think others should perceive the world. You seem incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of others, and adjusting accordingly, even when led by the nose to that trough!

Your tone deafness makes your words wasted (and you invest considerable time in writing dubious quantities) even if there is a point to glean.

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Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker

In what possible way could you be 'pro 2a'?

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I think you are assuming a particular meaning to "pro 2a" when there is a range. Similarly narrow in definition, there are "pro 2a" people who consider me "anti" because I support things like universal background checks.

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Originally Posted by hikesalot

Agreed it’s not ok for those seeking abortion. But the hypocrisy of pro-lifers putting these measures in place but also not wanting to put anything in place for gun control is maddening. And that quote speaks to that.

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I wish people woudl stop thinking of the left and right as these monoliths. Oh some people support this while some others support this.

There are plenty of people who are in favor of abortions being legal despite being pro 2a and actually pro life in their personal lives. Tons.

Awful. Just awful. The rest of the world once again watches aghast as the USA does nothing in response. It's incomprehensible. This sort of thing should galvanize a nation, not divide it.



Another bunch o kids in a bloody mess
Another maniac killin innocents
Analyst and experts on CNN
Explain away the pain on a day so grey

Without the dark the stars can't shine
I pray to hope through the hard times
What things could change to save more lives?
I think you know

Why oh why do they second guess
Gun Control
My my my what an ugly mess
Bless their souls

I don't wanna hear about his troubled past
There's a million little freaks with a past like that
People sayin' there was something wrong with his head
If he couldn't get a gun there'd be nobody dead

Why oh why do they second guess
Gun Control
My my my what an ugly mess
Bless their souls

Without the dark the stars cant shine
I pray for hope through the hard times
What things could change to save more lives?
I think he knows where its at

Freedom to take other peoples freedom away
Is this what has become of the U.S.A

Why oh why do they second guess
Gun Control
My my my what an ugly mess
Bless their souls
Why oh why do they second guess
Gun Control
My my my what a f**en mess
Bless their souls
Bless their souls
Bless their souls
Bless their souls

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Pretty sure everyone calling for better gun control is also holding pharmaceutical companies responsible for their part in the opioid epidemic.

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I believe I'm correct in saying $32B is the total opioid settlement number, so far.

Is Leroy suggesting a similar solution with the firearm industry?