Ordered FR14 from Jon. Stoked to give them a try.
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Ordered FR14 from Jon. Stoked to give them a try.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
I have a Raider 12 2.0 and I like the front brake.
+1. I'm a huge fan of the front brake. It's the only brake I'd ever use.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
I'm a front brake noob and have always been curious about it. If I recall, it works in touring mode ... as in when you do a kick turn and off comes your ski :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
Amirite?
... Thom
Yes it works in touring mode so if you lose a ski in tour mode it will help to stop it although with the skins on there is not much risk for the ski to go very far anyway.
You have to engage the brake every time you step in so if you're riding inbounds with a lot of gondolas, every time after you've taken a gondola you have to engage the brake again which is annoying. If you forget to engage them at the top of your run before droppin in, which WILL happen, you may fall, damage the brakes, and ruin your run.
On my Raiders 12 2.0. the brakes were hard to engage. They were light and less efficient than the new R12 brakes to stop a ski. Also some other users reported they were rubbing against the snow when carving hard, I used tight brakes (108mm for a 109mm ski) so I didn't experienced that issue myself though.
I love my FR14's and really think highly of ATK. But also what you said is spot on. They're neck and neck with DPS for the most confusing/least customer-friendly product lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by jorion
yep, but all of that is incredibly tolerable given the fact that they make the best goddamn bindings on the planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
and yes, thom, the advantage of the front brake is that if your boot is out of your ski, your brakes are always, 100% of the time deployed. very helpful when transitioning, if you're one of those types that takes your ski off. i got used to how the front brakes work very quickly, but yeah, you need to remember to stow 'em before launching or you're gonna have a bad time.
Allow me young man... lolQuote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
I do a ton of ski mountaineering and have over 100 days on these guys, while i think the binding is amazing, repeat amazing, the front brake has a few limitations as far as tech ski mountaineering is concerned.
Mind you i only use it in the BC. No resort use. Typically do flying dismounts when transitioning.
Front Brake Gripes:
- A Frame carrying skis, the brake cannot be locked down even if you dry fire the front pins. The brake gets snagged on the bag sidewalls and can be a bit of a pain to get it to settle.
- Spring skiing / corn conditions / icey conditions; i have noticed build up of it under and around the brake after skiing and transitioning to go back uphill, in that i cannot get the brake to engage down and have to remove the ski and start chipping around it.
-The top plastic housing piece has actually cracked / fallen off twice! I talked to Mike (Hagan) about this
-The brake when engaged does not tuck the brake arms
-Precarious transition stances... think the top of the Sickle where space is limited etc. After booting and making delicate / balancy moves to step in, having to make one or two more moves to engage the brake can be a little concerning
-Just having to engage it in a separate fashion lol
Again, the binding design and confidence under foot is amazing. Also the freeride spacer is a gamechanger to double up on TGapps opinion (BTW Hello dude!)
Anyone comment on my original ask about the Helios 350? (Helio 350 is the new Core 12 Pro / Raider 12 Heel Tower Assembly and just a brakeless front of a Core 12 with a wider mount pattern ... am I right in my assumption there?)
This. This is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
(although I also have a pair of MTN's and can't say a single bad thing about them)
^^ super good feedback, i think those are all valid points.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
- i've definitely experienced annoyance when carrying skis a-frame, but most of the time i carry diagonal because of shitty airbag limitations.
- i've never had them ice or build up in spring conditions, but i can see exactly how they would. i also run a B&D shim that keeps them up above the ski enough such that ice buildup/brakes catching has never been an issue for me
- the plastic jobber breaking makes total sense, i've always felt like that was a potential weakpoint in an otherwise strong design
honestly though, i think the way they step in during hard transitions is a strength, not a weakness. i know you gotta do one more clicky thing to get them to hide, but i also like being able to drop them from my pack and have brakes out no matter what.
also what are flying dismounts?? is that a way of getting extra points in strava?? :rolleyes2
Definitely looks like the R12 heel, but it appears to be the toe from their race bindings, which actually has a smaller mount pattern than the R12 toe.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
^^ oh shit i forgot, i asked a friend at BD your question D-roc and I'll lyk what I find out
The 350 toe is from the Trofeo, so same as on Helio 145/180/200.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAB
The race toe (Helio 110, Hagan Ultra) has a slimmer lever, plus a little bit of trimming down in other places too.
(I had to compare some of mine side-by-side to notice the latter.)
Ah, good clarification, thanks. I didn't realize the 110 toe was different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan S.
hahaha. meaning never taking your skis off to transition. just rip, turn, step, go....Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
Yeah I adore my Hagar core 12s. So much so that when I had to remount a pair of skis for small bsl I decided to replace the ions with atks, but had to pay close attention to not interfere with existing holes plus satisfy the annoying v werks mounting pattern requirements. After much playing with templates I reached the conclusion that the r12 would be perfect, but then I didn’t buy because of pandemic work uncertainty and now things are different again. Seems like the new raider 12 will work, so I think the new Hagan whatever will work, but I really hate spending mental energy on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
I'd say the biggest pro of a Front Break binding is it would be way better for removing the break and still having the freeride spacer. When you remove the brake on the FR14 and keep the spacer you are left with a big empty snow catching hole in the middle and I broke off one side of my Freeride spacer.
Ha! Ditto. Doesn't help that the English is written by ESL folks. Great bindings so worth the slight inconveniences. And the broad lineups mean you can find something to fit a very specific need.Quote:
Originally Posted by jorion
No argument about that.
Better than the spreadsheet I posted in post #1 above, scroll up and download the 20/21 catalog that @spyderjon posted and stop asking to be spoon fed ;-)
If you don't know the history of the Raiders they've actually simplified things slightly - naming the Freeraider 14 the Front 14, 'coz you know ... the brake is in the front.
Trofeo means trophy as in winning a (skimo) race.
Mapping Hagan's and BD's mashups to ATK ... now therein lies the fun.
... Thom
so heres a nerd question on my end. Toe clamping pressure....
So the Hagan core has the dual spring front, the the trofeo has the monolink front. Which has more clamping force? or what is the clamping force?
I remember reading that the Core 12 was like 13 / 14 kg? Any idea of what hte mono link is?
I wrote ATK an email asking this exact question a week ago and have not gotten a response yet, very curious if anybody has info about this. Additionally, if there is any difference in the monolink clamping force between the Crest 8 and Crest 10, and if the clamping force is any different between the RT and the Crest which have very slightly different versions of monolink toesQuote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
The toe clamping pressure in ski mode on ATK bindings up to & including last seasons production was 11kg on the toe inserts (I know that's not an exact unit of pressure but that's what they told me).
However, on the new/latest 20/21 production bindings the toe clamping pressure in ski mode has now been increased 13kg.
Great info! Is this true across the whole range (ie the lower release value bindings and race bindings too)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderjon
i have the helio 350 and last years hagan in hand... exact same mount pattern ...
Once nice noticeable change is the heel riser platforms are longer (more boot purchase), and the single arm spring on the toe piece... a much more noticeable "WHACK" as you press a boot in... so i think the increased toe clamp pressure is present
Received my Helio 350 yesterday (one time 40% off coupon sure helped). Very surprised at one year warranty and all the legal verbiage in the manual. Last I checked no Fritschi were shown in stock. Wonder if BD had a bad time with warranty on the vipec and tecton bindings. The spacer is available through Hagan for 15% off on preorder if anyone is interested.
That legal verbiage all comes down from ATK...
It's worth noting that the mount pattern information from the manual is incorrect on BDs website , the pattern is exactly the same as last year hagan core 12 - toe (p1 x4) heel (h1 x4)
You have to be creative when mounting some of their bindings. Last Spring, they didn't have a template for RT10s.
I can't recall how I derived the template for them. I think it had a Crest heel pattern. I'd have to look at my files (might have posted it earlier in this thread).
I then searched for a compatible toe.
... Thom
So how many here have actually skied the R12/R14's? Or Raider 2.0's for that matter. I am contemplating the switch but the ramp angle is kinda worrying me. I know I can shim it (but not easily.. like i cant buy it) and have done that in the past with Dynafits but that will lower the risers effective height which aren't especially tall.
What binder are you comparing against?
Probably have 50 days on the raider 12 2.0 + freeride spacer shimmed with B&D 6mm shims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eluder
Risers are perfectly fine. I've never, not once, needed a higher riser. More than enough.
I love this binding.
Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
Agreed... Tgapp what's your ramp angle now?
With shim... 4 mm?
Im sure Im splitting hairs here... what I am use to is 6-8... short boots though. Smoke induced shoulder season debating.Quote:
Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un
Pivots for alpine. Always shimmed dynafits.
I'd be surprised if the Raiders are more than 10-11mm. BTW, I wouldn't take skimo's measurements as being dead accurate. They agree with some binders I've measured, and not so much with others.
Dynafits range from really flat to about 17mm for the old Verticals. I haven't kept up with their line, however.
... Thom
It's been a minute since I measured but IIRC that's where it ended up. Totally manageable IMO. And yeah, the risers are not an issue (but I obviously have strong opinions on risers).Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
+1 on Skimo's measurements being hit or miss. I've seen them totally revise a number of figures on their website. They generally do a great job though, so no complaints here..they just have a lot of products to measure.
Curious to see what the ramp angle on the new ATK Release 10 will be.
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My stock order will be arriving in a few days so I'll be able to measure the deltas on the Raider 14's, C-Raider 12's, Raider 12's, Crest 10's/8's & Release 10's.
I need to comment (so we're using the same language), that their method is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
Given the variability of boots, they measure from top sheet to the center of the toe pins and heel pins. Note that there's a slight toe pin height change when the boot is engaged, so you should measure it that way (engaged).
In the case of the Tecton and Kingpin of course, one would have to derive the heel pin location (or at least I would).
Their measurements for the Vipec (11.5mm) agreed with mine. Some others ... not so much.
I'm finding that I'm OK with anything from 5-10mm (perhaps lower?). I shimmed my Plum Guides (which are very close to old school Dyna-fiddles @ 17mm or so), to get to 10mm (same range as my RT10s and Vipec Blacks) and I'm fine.
[edit]I was about to compare your Release 10 to the Haute Route, until I remembered that the Rel. 10 has the elastic response base plate.
I'd expect you to be in the range of my RT10s at 10mm ramp delta (31/41). I updated my spreadsheet - realizing I didn't add my RT10s last Spring. For grins, I measured my Salomon Wardens - using my Zero-Gs and measuring to the center of the pin fittings.
The table below, renders well on a laptop browser, but not on my phone. The three columns are Toe Pin, Heel Pin and Delta[/edit]
Binding
Toe Heel Diff Notes Salomon Warden 19.0 24.0 5.0 Measured with Zero-G Guide Pro to toe & heel fittings Fritschi Vipec 40.0 51.5 11.5 Plum Guide 38.0 48.0 10.0 With 7mm toe shims ATK RT-10 31.0 41.0 10.0 ATK Haute Route 30.0 36.5 6.5
... Thom
Where did you find the shims?Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
skimoco.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
Attachment 341105
Attachment 341106
hope these pictures help - you can see the slight bit of overhang on where the "wings" of the front brake extend beyond the actual shim. i've never had any issues with that, it's purely a cosmetic thing.
Yikes, the front brake issues seem fairly significant?Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
Gripes, not issues ha