LOL dude no one wants to read all that
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Printable View
LOL dude no one wants to read all that
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
I think you don't understand the economics of running small consumer products businesses as well as you think you do. While I can think of numerous examples of big ski companies dumbing down skis to make them accessible or discontinuing performance lines entirely (RIP Head Monsters), I can't actually think of an example of a boutique/low volume brand pursuing the strategy of selling out their core consumer to chase volumes which you think is obviously profitable. I can think of "premium mass" brands that have tried to diversify their product offerings for less performance oriented consumers (Kastle/DPS come to mind) to monetize cachet, but they are luxury products in a way I don't think 4FRNT skis are. Also, Kastle still makes (most of) the good skis (MX series), they are just not the entire line anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
Whether any sane person would do that with a full reverse 122 cm powder ski designed in part for touring is a different conversation. I personally think no sane person would do that because the only "mass market" powder skis anyone without the cardiovascular fitness of a Kenyan marathoner and the quads of a German bodybuilder would care to carry up hill I can even think of are the Atomic Bent Chetler (which I think Atomic makes for their athletes for marketing purposes because I doubt they sell the volume to justify it considered in isolation), the Volkl BMT series and possibly the DPS Lotus. I would submit none of those skis are aimed at the JONG crowd, though of course JONGs may own any of them and are possibly more likely to do so than OG Renegades.
However, as far as I know, none of the very short list of mass market powder tourable skis suck. I have not skied them, so I am not telling you I think they're great. I'm just saying I doubt that if you're trying to move mass market you start with your powder skis that only idiots who hang out on ski forums even buy...
I counter that. Because the average/majority skier already has multiple "all mountain" skis, the powder ski is where you start. That could be the "hook" for new customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly
The 19' Renegade with the geometry and design input from Hoji is still very powerful. And taming down a great design may yield better profit results with secondary and tertiary 4FRNT purchases from those new customers.
I also don't know anything about small consumer products, but dissecting and theorizing regarding this whole Renegade roll out is fun!
It's not fun to read, it's obnoxious. Ski the fucking thing, then post about how it sucks vs building up how much it sucks and telling us about it before you ski it.
Ain’t that simple. Many people have issue with buying, mounting, and wasting time testing a final product that was never tested by the manufacturer.
The winter is only so long. Days are valuable right now... especially for a powder ski.
What DID you want to use the Ren for?? Inbounds pow/chop or 50/50?Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
I haven't posted on this forum for-fucking-ever, but thought I'd chime in since I got my first day on my new 191 Renegades yesterday. I've been reading the thread and was kinda bummed about the 'changes'.
I'm 6-3 and usually over 200lbs in the winter - I mounted em 2cm back per the 'Hoji' mounting advice. I have these mounted with a pin binding, and never plan on taking em to the resort. Last year I toured on the Bibby Tours and never quite clicked with those skis. I think I missed having a full reverse camber ski - which I've always had in the quiver since midyear when the OG Spatulas came out (which makes me feel pretty old).
Skied a big (~2500') shot yesterday with 10" of fresh on an old sun crust. Skis were very, very manageable in a steep tight chute to start the run. I was hesitant to open it up early season (ROCKS) and could easily make some fall line turns and then dump speed to let my sluff past. After that I immediately 'clicked' with the ski and was able to make any turn shape I wanted, or slash and throw up some snow - had to point a choke through debris/sluff/rocks with some speed and ended up arcing big, fast turns at the bottom apron of the run in denser powder (south facing run, not quite mank at that point).
For me, I'm immediately psyched on these skis - first pair of 4frnts. I think a little softer/lighter might make them a great touring ski for ME. The weight is really compelling for a touring ski if you compare to other skis in the class... I could see folks being bummed if you use these at a resort and make zero turns all the time - but I can't really speak to that since I'll never take em to Snowbird or Alta.
I'm keeping mine. Interested in what other folks think after they get some days on em.
Nice. Good to see the reviews starting to come in.
Looking forward to more.
Good initial review. I bet they can still handle the resort great, just not be a fkn bruiser in super choppy and cruddy situations. Its a bit wide for that anyways tho IMO.. Probably a perfect resort pow day ski for somewhere you can get semi-untracked all day on a storm day, which is a decent number places here out west.
Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
I thought people didn't really like the Renegade in chop? I could be completely wrong as I've never skied it but I thought people were stoked on it for high-speed charging in fresh pow but then most people thought it kicked their ass once it got too choppy? I can vaguely recall one reviewer on this forum saying something to the effect of "it's the only ski that I feel beat up with after an all-day session". No horse in this race so I'm just genuinely curious, if most people are using it in fresh ,such as the review we just saw, shouldn't really be much of a problem right? I get it if you want a stiffer ski to blast through chop though.
Sent from my LM-G710VM using TGR Forums mobile app
I think that comment was mine or could have been. Yes it was a storm day ski for me and change out at lunch if choppy or rutted groomers. I am torn on mounting my new ones to tour or resort. I just don’t tour much maybe I need to see how that goes first.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcjr
For sure in fresh they have been hard to beat for slash and flow. (Owl and crow versions)
My home mtn stays fresh longer than others ;) so I am hoping to like em.
That was a bunch of us- that 196 Ren is a big boy and tires me out, but doesn’t feel like a lot of work to get to come around. If that makes any sense...
I also wouldn’t call it a crud crusher, more of a chop skipper that also handles firm finely. The 194 Dev crushes or skips and is the best chop/ crud ski for dense snow I’ve ever been on
Thanks for the on snow review!
Even in soft-ish crud? I never skied any Ren.
Thats where the Billy Goats and Bibbys and Rx and other 115-120mm skis crush IMO, but I do notice that as I get onto a wider ski, the skis prefer smoother surfaces. Soft Groomers or semi-untracked to full untracked. I did honestly believe the Ren was a next day after the storm crusher, but I guess I was wrong.
If I’m buying an “untracked” ski, for the resort meaning I dont have to slog it uphill, I’m going for something insanely powder specific. Donner Party or Powderboards. Am I crazy for thinking these 120-130mm skis are kind of out of place for my situation? They dont handle mixed conditions like 115-120mm skis, and dont have that ultimate experience that I get from skis over 130 and severly powder specific (Bubbas and Protests would be at the beginning of this spectrum, and the sky is the limit from there lol)
Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
I'm probably going to stop engaging at this point but if you want to start a "sell out bros ski biz plan" thread go for it. If you can write it in a thoughtful enough way JLev, Scott, Luke, Keith or any of the other indie ski guys who do respond to reasonable questions on this board are willing to comment I'd be really interested. I am about 99% sure they will tell you your idea is nonsensical and I can even speculate about why they will say that, but I don't really know how they would see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
Perhaps Scott's long game is selling ON3P to Vale Resorts in 10 years for $$$ after outsourcing production to North Korea, thus explaining his avatar*. Would be a super long con.
* I think it's actually because his employees call him "Dear Leader" for working them so hard but am not 100%.
REN does not float like toons. Neither does protest. More of a sub then porpoise. Different feel to be in pow than on top which can be fun. You buy a ren or protest to slash and go fast. Bibby or BG is crud killer and fun in different way. I have all 4 to am discussing and they all have advantages
REN is fastest
Protest is close second but more float
BG Kills trees and surfy
Bibby is more all mtn pow
REN is awesome in soft chop. Amazing in untracked and awesome on the chop but still soft runs. Once it’s crud and moguls, with some chop but with chop as the minority and crud the majority, I’d rather be on different skis.
ETA and by ‘awesome’ I mean it retains that frictionless rocket ship quality.
The models that'll kick your ass in set up shit have the Hals construction/wood sidewalls.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcjr
Mine are ‘15, 196, wood sidewall no vibevail
"Frictionless rocketship quality" - that is where the shit is at on the rens!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
Sent from my SM-G935V using TGR Forums mobile app
I feel like the EHP and the Ren's have a similar top end with a thick c-hair going to the Ren, but as the ideal Ren conditions drop off as the day goes on, the EHP is still completely relevant when the Ren has become a chore to ski.
Straight up bring the ehp back. Start with the pilsner graphic.
You gain a bit in absolutely ideal conditions with the Ren's. But the EHPs are very very close, and, IMHO, shine through more conditions for days on end for where I ski (horse, pass, revy).
They both have the frictionless rocketship quality, IMHO the ehp keeps that quality much longer through the days as the snow deteriorates.
YMMV
Wondering if the new RENEGLADE combines a bit of old Ren and EHP, or is it really now just a soft Ren that is mostly for touring perfect movie snow?
How about 190 length EHP, but with the shape of the 186? I would sink tips on the 193 (Chinese watercolor) in more than a foot of fresh untracked, but I’m near 200lbs. Probably wouldn’t have sunk tips in BC because there is real pitch, I only skied them in NE. My floppy beat up 186s floated better on that terrain. 196 Rens surprisingly fun back east.
Or do what I do. Start day on rens. Move to ehp for afternoon and devestators for day after. I do think bringing back the ehp would be a great move for 4frnt. Maybe they could do small batch of rens to. I'm super bummed they changed the Ren. I've stated many times here that is the best pow ski ever, for those who want to ski pow fast. But I have 3 backup pairs to go with 2 pairs mounted and in use. And I've skied 2 more pair until death. So that gets me some years of use. More than anything I'm just bummed to see 4frnt getting away from what I saw as making them a really good brand. Which is designing a great ski and sticking with it. Sure is just 1 ski they've changed but it's my favorite. Jlev's decision to change the lay up is purely asinine, and makes me worry what other mistakes he'll make. I like a lot of the new business model. Recent deal on boards with bindings was a sweet deal, especially for those who can't get pro forms. Jlev should really just hire me as a consultant. I probably own more 4frnt skis than anyone who works for or is sponsored by 4frnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Curious if you own or tried the Hoji? How about reckless toboggan? I just picked up a pair of 187s, hadn’t been on them in a few years. Fun ski for soft snow in NE. Replaced my 186 EHP with those because the EHPs are totally beat, quite soft at this point in their life. Will eventually get another pair of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
What year Hoji did you get?
Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
2015, this one:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...h=700&hl=en-us
Dang, url:
https://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/4frnt-hoji-2015
I loved those ones. Wanna try the heAvy 2016s with vibevail too.
Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
It's funny because I bought the Renegade in '13 (Owl) after noticing that the ski hadn't changed in so many years. That's literally why I bought it.
My head-- "I've been watching the cult online-- this ski must be right by now. I can't believe they're not changing the shape."
Yep. The 186 is my all-time favorite ski, but I would pay a huge premium for a 190 WITH the 186 shape. This is a fantastic idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
This is why I am so enamored with the Head Boneshaker/Carlos, easily covers all these basesQuote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
For anyone in SLC hoarding the 196s:
https://classifieds.ksl.com/listing/54457323
I know a guy in Sandy waiting for a sidewall pic of some Devastators:biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by dfinn
Hoji has too much RC for my tastes and a smaller sidecut radius. I really like the flat camber of the ehp and the lesser RC of the Ren and the biger sidecut radius of each. Hoji is also too narrow, 116 seems to be my sweet spot for a daily driver. Even the 122 of the Ren feels a bit off on absolutely hardpacked groomers days after a bunch of runs, where as I've skied low tide groomers for days on my EHPs arcing super g turns or just slashing and jibbing around, and have been totally happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
I do have a pair of hojis mounted for touring. Not the charger that the Ren is. But floats great for its width. Skied some pretty step spines in AK on them and they held up fine. Would've preferred rens but didn't have touring bindings on them. They definitely have a similar feel to the rest of the line. Waiting to mount a pair of Ravens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
shit, thanks for the reminder. I'll do that now.Quote:
Originally Posted by tuco
Thanks for the feedback guys. For me, it’s fun as an east coast all day pow ski in tight terrain and I agree it is mellower then the Ren or EHP. Not sure if I’ll ever take them on a trip out west, need more time on them. They’ll probably end up with shifts on them at some point.
Same with the Volkl One, which should have been continued in their line and offered in a low 190s length. Yes it overlaps with the confession, but I don’t hear that ski being sung heaps of praise. The one is not as frictionless as Hoji-derived designs, but it is fun in pow (floats a ton for 116 under foot, equal to Rens IMO), fun in chop and crud. Can carve groomers. If I had to have a one ski quiver for out west, I think that would be it. The set I have access to is mounted at -6ish from center (something like 3-4 ahead of the rearmost recommended mount point) and it is money there.Quote:
Originally Posted by tuco
So we’re putting a Praxis EHP 190 order together?
That would be an amazing ski. Shape of the 186, 190 length, Praxis build.
I really like the shape of the 193 for most things, the 186 for some things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
I'd go a shape perfectly in-between the 186 and the 193 in every regard ...189.5 length.
Okay okay...190.
...but we're gonna have to adjust the mounting point to account for that 5 mm.
So mine arrived, im going to mount em. They actually feel well constructed which is a surprise given the renuchgade conspiracy. Surprisingly flatter than my 2014 but that probably because of the full wood sidewall wet out scenario. Definitely has the potential for a hinge point in the flex towards the tip but is stout underfoot. I'm going to go for it because the very tip is slightly more upturned and i want the extra float for Japan this season. Thinking of going 1.5 cm ahead of the indent which would bring it in line with where i had my old pairs but haven't decided if this will be strange due to rocker changes. Ideally aiming for centerish of rocker profile i think