Praxis Protest..just how cool is it?

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Originally Posted by Shu Shu

Sweet. I hope you do as I would love to hear how the two compare. The regular Q is a phenomenal pow ski, and I don't grab my Protests unless it's really deep (like 2-3 times a year).

I was out yesterday with my buddy on a good soft-pack day, he was on Qs and I was on PJs. It was actually super cool to watch. He was making huge high speed arcs and then just feathering the tails to change the radius of the turns. When I watched it happen I was like yeah I know exactly what that feels like and its awesome. It was so cool to ski behind him and just watch how the tails slide around so easily with that feathering approach.

I would be very interested to know if that two footed/feather approach is similar/amplified/reduced by waist width. I can easily see adding a Skinny Q if the feel is similar, but just a little more nimble manageable for lower tide.

Here's my regular rotation from this season.

PJ- skiing with the family, spring bumps (so good)
Q-Everything else
Protest-big pow mornings

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The above is from the current, main Praxis thread, but it has relevance to the whining I've been doing about my first day on Protests.

Your description is exactly what won me over with the Q's.

Too many of you with generally similar tastes to me, make me think I'm missing something with my Protests, so I'm going give them another few chances (let my ad on gear swap float down), but I'm not at all hopeful. We'll see if I eat my words.

What was bugging me about the Protests (in about 9" of moderately heavy powder) is that they didn't float better than the Q's, and I had to tailgun to keep the tips up. What's up with that?

Is it the relatively narrower tip in comparison with my GPOs, Qs, and departed Billy Goats?

These 187s (from 2014, I think) are mounted @ -1.5 from the dimple (102 straight-pull from the tip). The dimple is 100.5 from the tip. I wouldn't dare move them further back for fear of not being able to turn them at all.

I feel as if I'm skiing a completely different ski from what everyone is describing. These 187 beasts (at 10.0 Lbs even) feel like 2x4s. I never (for example) felt this way about my 184 Billy Goats.

I'll say one thing about them: of the Qs, Billy Goats, and these, the Protests are the most predictible, solid, and carve-y on harder snow, but it's not exactly why you take these skis out.

... Thom

It's hard for me to advise you, who seems to have thought through ski construction and design about 10,000x more than me, but here goes....

- Give them five days. One day is never enough.
- Get a true bar to check flatness. Check the overall tune. You know that, but in maritime mank, that could make a difference.
- Tip dive? I have no idea. I'm 6', 190# (182 cm, 86kg), and never had issues with tip dive. Mounted at -0.75 from rec on the 187. Are you sure it's a Protest? ;)
- What bindings/boots are you using? The various ramp angles can change the feeling significantly. The Protests like to be skied from a neutral stance, but I'm sure you know all of this. I've been on alpine set-up (STH) then remounted with Kingpins/Maestrale RS. Worked great with both.
- They go too straight? One thing I love about the Protest is that it makes small turns in deep snow so easy. Even at low speeds. But you can also open it up into huge turns or straightlines.

As you noted, "I feel as if I'm skiing a completely different ski from what everyone is describing." Give em another chance. I guess it's also possible you got a lemon?

Thom tip dive is super weird, x2 "are your sure it's a Protest?". From your descriptions it does sound very much like you are describing a different ski.

There is big weather headed in this weekend for me and if all goes well I'm going to be A-B ing my Qs and Protests sunday. I will resist the to urge to comment until then, and hopefully maybe have something interesting to offer as it's been a while since I've ridden my Protests in reasonably appropriate conditions.

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Originally Posted by Shu Shu

There is big weather headed in this weekend for me and if all goes well I'm going to be A-B ing my Qs and Protests sunday. I will resist the to urge to comment until then, and hopefully maybe have something interesting to offer as it's been a while since I've ridden my Protests in reasonably appropriate conditions.

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I'd love an A/B on the Qs/Protests. Thinking (long-term) about 194 Qs with Shifts for a travel set-up. (Where ya at Shu?)

Thanks guys. I'm definitely going to stretch this experiment into next year.

The tune is good (I checked and freshened it up). Boots/bindings are a familiar combo: Lange XT 130 Freetours/Wardens.

I've heard that Protests were beefier at some point in the past. Based on a straight-pull of 186 and the Nylon top, Stained Glass Trees top sheet, I'm led to believe these are 187s from the 2014 time frame.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to measure the width at various points to see how it agrees with the current model. I did measure them at the waist (128), but nowhere else along the ski.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by meter-man

I'd love an A/B on the Qs/Protests. Thinking (long-term) about 194 Qs with Shifts for a travel set-up. (Where ya at Shu?)

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LOL nowhere gnar that's for sure. I'm Montreal based so I hop around between Jay Vermont, Eastern Townships, Laurentians. Try and get out to either the interior of BC or WB once a year.

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

What was bugging me about the Protests (in about 9" of moderately heavy powder) is that they didn't float better than the Q's, and I had to tailgun to keep the tips up. What's up with that?

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With a rear mount on such a wide ski I can't help but wonder in what speed range you experience tip dive?

I think I've had my Protests for 6 or 7 years now. 187s mounted at the dimple. I've skied them in everything from bottomless 4% Japan fluff to heavy windblown NZ mank and spring hot pow. I have never, ever, had any tip dive.

In many conditions, incl 3" of variable NZ 3D, I can go as fast as on my 98 Monsters. They inspire total confidence.

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Originally Posted by SoooL

With a rear mount on such a wide ski I can't help but wonder in what speed range you experience tip dive?

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Fairly slow, say 20-25. At the same speed, the Q's tips float a slight bit better.

I was expecting an on top of, rather than in the snow experience - especially in fairly dense snow.

I've been wondering if this is because the surface area is biased more toward the center of the ski , with a similar tip width, but wider waist than the Q, GPO, and Billy.

Maybe this surface area distribution plays more into the necessity of a centered stance than moving the mount point rearward by 1.5 cm mitigates it?

I'll put them in the carrier, and if we get closer to the 6" side rather than 3" tonight I'll pull them out tomorrow and report back.

Maybe I'm s slow learner.

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Originally Posted by Island Bay

... In many conditions, incl 3" of variable NZ 3D, I can go as fast as on my 98 Monsters. They inspire total confidence.

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Yes, I definitely noticed this at speed.

... Thom

Float issue on a ProTest is a non issue for me. Esp in higher density pow. The only thing I notice is on flatter terrain I must keep a centered balance point if going slow. Other than that they are float machines. So surfy.

I skied my Protests for about 2 months before selling them. I had no issues in any density snow getting them to ski amazing. In low density, they didnt float on top as much as sliced though snow effortlessly with the tapered tips, yet provided enough float in what was there to keep my off the bottom. In heavy maritime snow, they are Praxis, designed for that type of snow, and excel.

I did have to ski them with a middle back stance, not quite over the middle of my foot, but not as fat back as skiing from the heels. It’s a different stance that what felt normal for me, but I liked it. Too much forward pressure and the tips did dive, but stand over the middle of the ski and surf the mountain, and the Protests did everything awesome.

I’m looking at ordering a new pair, but debating between the 196 and 192s. I like having a huge platform to rip around on, but am over dragging extra weight around when looking for the left over pow. Ill probably order the 196s, but i just never know.


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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

The above is from the current, main Praxis thread, but it has relevance to the whining I've been doing about my first day on Protests.

Your description is exactly what won me over with the Q's.

Too many of you with generally similar tastes to me, make me think I'm missing something with my Protests, so I'm going give them another few chances (let my ad on gear swap float down), but I'm not at all hopeful. We'll see if I eat my words.

What was bugging me about the Protests (in about 9" of moderately heavy powder) is that they didn't float better than the Q's, and I had to tailgun to keep the tips up. What's up with that?

Is it the relatively narrower tip in comparison with my GPOs, Qs, and departed Billy Goats?

These 187s (from 2014, I think) are mounted @ -1.5 from the dimple (102 straight-pull from the tip). The dimple is 100.5 from the tip. I wouldn't dare move them further back for fear of not being able to turn them at all.

I feel as if I'm skiing a completely different ski from what everyone is describing. These 187 beasts (at 10.0 Lbs even) feel like 2x4s. I never (for example) felt this way about my 184 Billy Goats.

I'll say one thing about them: of the Qs, Billy Goats, and these, the Protests are the most predictible, solid, and carve-y on harder snow, but it's not exactly why you take these skis out.

... Thom

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Check the tune. My OG 187 Protests mounted on the line felt tip divey, but alot of that was because the front part was too sharp and had basically zero bevel. It wasn't that the tips were truly submerging, but that the grabby, dragging feeling from the jacked up tune made the tips alternatively and randomly grab and decelerate, which threw me forward and gave the sensation of diving

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

Fairly slow, say 20-25. At the same speed, the Q's tips float a slight bit better.

I was expecting an on top of, rather than in the snow experience - especially in fairly dense snow.

I've been wondering if this is because the surface area is biased more toward the center of the ski , with a similar tip width, but wider waist than the Q, GPO, and Billy.

Maybe this surface area distribution plays more into the necessity of a centered stance than moving the mount point rearward by 1.5 cm mitigates it?

I'll put them in the carrier, and if we get closer to the 6" side rather than 3" tonight I'll pull them out tomorrow and report back.

Maybe I'm s slow learner.


Yes, I definitely noticed this at speed.

... Thom

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I think I get where you’re coming from. Initially with mine I was like “holy shit they just want to go in a huuuge turn”. Once I started kicking out the tails to finish a turn I could alter the ski into any turn. You may want to overdo with the smear finish to your turns to get going then bring it back to incorporating it with how you usually finish your turns til you find that sweet spot.
For float I’d say roll the ski over a bit more . It does have a nice floaty tip shape but like you say the width of the shovel is narrower compared to the width of the waist then a gpo or rx. I guess my suggestions are kind of similar but I think that’s what I’ve found works. Eg; your turns have the ski rolled over on edge and finish with the ski more flat to smear the finish(it’ll get tighter and more seem less I think) and then float has the same, rolled over but it’s easier to smear those rolled over in 3D snow or flat for more of a smear finish. Never totally flat as it’s a wide ski so it helps to keep your weight on the inside of the turn. Not sure if any of that makes sense but that’s how I ended up using them. My turns with the smear finish got tighter eventually to the point Where it was subtle like a normal finish to a turn or accentuated for dumping speed or in tight spots. You’d probably get it in a couple days like most it seems but maybe my ramble helps

I've been skiing the og ('09?) 188 Protests for the last few years and I can't even fathom burying the tips or thinking they just want to go straight, I'm 6'0 210 for reference. Never even remotely been on anything you can whip around in 4"s + easier with zero hook or friction. There's a joke in there somewhere.

I think the long turn comes from the lack of sidecut when it’s on edge. The sidecut is a short section so that moderates the radius but it doesn’t have much of an arc. Take out the tapers and make the sidecut the length of the ski with the same variation in width from boot Center to the front of the sidecut and rear and it’s probably a 55metre radius. Roll it on edge on a groomer and it’s a pretty long turn. Use the other attributes of the ski, especially in 3D, and it’s do anything you want when you want

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Originally Posted by grinch

I think I get where you’re coming from. Initially with mine I was like “holy shit they just want to go in a huuuge turn”. Once I started kicking out the tails to finish a turn I could alter the ski into any turn. You may want to overdo with the smear finish to your turns to get going then bring it back to incorporating it with how you usually finish your turns til you find that sweet spot.

For float I’d say roll the ski over a bit more . It does have a nice floaty tip shape but like you say the width of the shovel is narrower compared to the width of the waist then a gpo or rx. I guess my suggestions are kind of similar but I think that’s what I’ve found works. Eg; your turns have the ski rolled over on edge and finish with the ski more flat to smear the finish (it’ll get tighter and more seem less I think) and then float has the same, rolled over but it’s easier to smear those rolled over in 3D snow or flat for more of a smear finish. Never totally flat as it’s a wide ski so it helps to keep your weight on the inside of the turn.

Not sure if any of that makes sense but that’s how I ended up using them. My turns with the smear finish got tighter eventually to the point Where it was subtle like a normal finish to a turn or accentuated for dumping speed or in tight spots. You’d probably get it in a couple days like most it seems but maybe my ramble helps

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Thanks Grinch!

I'll read a description like this and my mind gets twisted into knots - trying to connect with my body while at a keyboard :eek:

It gives me some general concepts to fiddle with, and usually (in combination with background processing the verbal description), I'll let body wisdom enter the mix - frequently having a "lightbulb" moment.

That's what happened with the Quixotes.

Just the fact that you went through this, and your reporting subtle adaptations you had to make give me hope that this old dog can learn yet another new trick :biggrin:

I just dulled the edges back a bit further at the tip and laid a fresh coat of wax on them. They're in the rooftoop carrier and if we get an overnight mini-dump as promised, I'll give your suggestions a try (and report back).

... Thom

Anyone been on both C&D and Protest, and care to compare?

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

Thanks Grinch!

I'll read a description like this and my mind gets twisted into knots - trying to connect with my body while at a keyboard :eek:

It gives me some general concepts to fiddle with, and usually (in combination with background processing the verbal description), I'll let body wisdom enter the mix - frequently having a "lightbulb" moment.

That's what happened with the Quixotes.

Just the fact that you went through this, and your reporting subtle adaptations you had to make give me hope that this old dog can learn yet another new trick :biggrin:

I just dulled the edges back a bit further at the tip and laid a fresh coat of wax on them. They're in the rooftoop carrier and if we get an overnight mini-dump as promised, I'll give your suggestions a try (and report back).

... Thom

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Right on Thom. Hoping they click for you. I figured I’d chime in. We seem to have similar skis and mount points. That and I miss mine so maybe I’m a bit sentimental emphasis on teh “mental”

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Originally Posted by grinch

I think the long turn comes from the lack of sidecut when it’s on edge. Use the other attributes of the ski, especially in 3D, and it’s do anything you want when you want

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Yeah, exactly. Who the hell uses the edges on these things?

Any of you aficionados interested in hoarding a 2x drilled pair of 188s?

What year did they change these? 2012?

I found a really good deal on a used pair, but don’t know if it’s older or newer. Is there any way to tell just by looking?

Does it matter?


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Originally Posted by N1CK.

Any of you aficionados interested in hoarding a 2x drilled pair of 188s?

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Um, yes! Pm coming


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Anyone ever slack country the Protests? Thinking bout throwing the Adrenalin 16s on em for the occasional tour...


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Originally Posted by ALFONSO618

Anyone ever slack country the Protests? Thinking bout throwing the Adrenalin 16s on em for the occasional tour...


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That be a nice setup to have. I’d like to have a pair with shifts or tectons. My goldilocks length is somewhere between the 177 and 187 so I’ve been thinking of getting a fat 179 wootest(fat makes them grow an extra cm in length as well as width), so basically a 180, 123 underfoot prowoo

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Originally Posted by ALFONSO618

Anyone ever slack country the Protests? Thinking bout throwing the Adrenalin 16s on em for the occasional tour...


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Sort of. Mine have Sollyfit plates. I tour on them in Japan, and ski them with STHs at home (NZ Clubfields) . This involves a lot of booting, ridge hiking etc, and touring capability would be a bonus. Salomon Shifts would make sense, if they turn out to not fall apart.

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Originally Posted by grinch

That be a nice setup to have. I’d like to have a pair with shifts or tectons. My goldilocks length is somewhere between the 177 and 187 so I’ve been thinking of getting a fat 179 wootest(fat makes them grow an extra cm in length as well as width), so basically a 180, 123 underfoot prowoo

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Yah the shifts would be sweet... came across some cheap Adrenalins that I couldnt pass up...never really hear about guys slack touring with the Protests...

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Originally Posted by Island Bay

Sort of. Mine have Sollyfit plates. I tour on them in Japan, and ski them with STHs at home (NZ Clubfields) . This involves a lot of booting, ridge hiking etc, and touring capability would be a bonus. Salomon Shifts would make sense, if they turn out to not fall apart.

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How did they seem to tour in japan? My plan is to get to Japan this year and I didnt want to be stuck with a non touring set up...

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Originally Posted by grinch

That be a nice setup to have. I’d like to have a pair with shifts or tectons. My goldilocks length is somewhere between the 177 and 187 so I’ve been thinking of getting a fat 179 wootest(fat makes them grow an extra cm in length as well as width), so basically a 180, 123 underfoot prowoo

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I'm sure you smiled when proposing "fat Wootest", given the ski's origin. I get the Goldilocks length considerations however. A fat Quixote could be the ticket as well.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by ALFONSO618

How did they seem to tour in japan? My plan is to get to Japan this year and I didnt want to be stuck with a non touring set up...

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The skis tour and handle backcountry snow amazingly well. You will not be disappointed with the ski's performance. The Guardians, however....

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Originally Posted by meter-man

The skis tour and handle backcountry snow amazingly well. You will not be disappointed with the ski's performance. The Guardians, however....

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They're actually adrenalin 16s....but i hear what you're saying...the reality is that my slack touring is minimal...the cost on those Shifts tho :eek:

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

I'm sure you smiled when proposing "fat Wootest", given the ski's origin. I get the Goldilocks length considerations however. A fat Quixote could be the ticket as well.

... Thom

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It’s mostly about the length. I didn’t have much of an issue with my protests in 177 or 187, or not near as much as other pow skis but low 180’s is perfect for me and 180 is a touch on the side of better for touring for me. Amazing the possibilities that the -/+1 option gives. Hadn’t considered a +1 Q until you suggested it. Sounds like a great option.

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Originally Posted by ALFONSO618

They're actually adrenalin 16s....but i hear what you're saying...the reality is that my slack touring is minimal...the cost on those Shifts tho :eek:

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It’s probably the frame binding vs pin thing. Anyone that’s toured on pins finds it hard to consider frame bindings after touring on pins, especially with all the good boots out with tech fittings now.

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Originally Posted by grinch

It’s mostly about the length. I didn’t have much of an issue with my protests in 177 or 187, or not near as much as other pow skis but low 180’s is perfect for me and 180 is a touch on the side of better for touring for me. Amazing the possibilities that the -/+1 option gives. Hadn’t considered a +1 Q until you suggested it. Sounds like a great option.

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After writing this, I realized that this is the direction that ON3P is taking with the Cease and Desist - a fat Billy Goat, with both BG & C&D being asym. as I understand it.

... Thom

I think the C&D is still fairly different from the BG. I think they made the camber profile the same, but the tip offset, and all that, are different.

Part of the reason I keep going back to the protest ,or possible variations of it, is the lack of assym. I have no doubt that assym does what it’s designed to do, I just have no interest in giving up the use of edges on one side of my skis for an effect as minimal as assym. I have much more faith in the durability of both praxis and on3p compared to most other brands, so they’re probably the best brands to get an assym ski from, but I’d still much rather be able to swap skis left to right if need be

I ran carbon protests as my pow touring skis while I was still living in close proximity to the backcountry, mounted with Beast 14s, and they handled themselves quite well. I actually took these out more frequently than my UL GPOs given how well I liked them on the way down (for some reason I never really figured out the GPOs compared to the rest of the quiver).

Since moving, the protest + beasts transitioned to resort pow sticks, and while I really love them I don't think I can really justify holding onto a backcountry pow-oriented spot in the quiver when the good portion of the next two years will definitely be "getting my girlfriend up to speed to justify a pair of pow sticks for her too." I was not disappointed with them for the role they played for backcountry/sidecountry use, by any means.

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Originally Posted by Roundabout

I ran carbon protests as my pow touring skis while I was still living in close proximity to the backcountry, mounted with Beast 14s, and they handled themselves quite well. I actually took these out more frequently than my UL GPOs given how well I liked them on the way down (for some reason I never really figured out the GPOs compared to the rest of the quiver).

Since moving, the protest + beasts transitioned to resort pow sticks, and while I really love them I don't think I can really justify holding onto a backcountry pow-oriented spot in the quiver when the good portion of the next two years will definitely be "getting my girlfriend up to speed to justify a pair of pow sticks for her too." I was not disappointed with them for the role they played for backcountry/sidecountry use, by any means.

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Thanks for that info on the Protests! Sounds like they’ll be a good slack tour option for me


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Originally Posted by grinch

Part of the reason I keep going back to the protest ,or possible variations of it, is the lack of assym. I have no doubt that assym does what it’s designed to do, I just have no interest in giving up the use of edges on one side of my skis for an effect as minimal as assym. I have much more faith in the durability of both praxis and on3p compared to most other brands, so they’re probably the best brands to get an assym ski from, but I’d still much rather be able to swap skis left to right if need be

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Definitely not trying to bang the drum about asym. If anything, I see it as a minor negative on hard snow and I can't see any advantages in the soft stuff. I wonder how much of what I like about the ski has to do with asym. I suspect not much, based on what I'm loving about my Countdown CD 104s, but I know crap about ski design.

Having said that, after only two days on my Protests, I have way more fun on Qs in soft snow, which is was what led me to ponder a +10 Q.

My third day on my Protests will have to wait until next year to see if I bond with them, but I'm not optimistic. Then again, it took me 5 or 6 days to figure out Q's, so maybe my pessimism is unwarranted.

... Thom

Oh ya, I’m not bagging on asym. Just the way I maintain my skis. Bit of a slacker eh. Tune them twice a year and maybe do my edges 3 or 4 times. Try not to grind them just ptex and scrape. When I need edges they’re usually there, if not swap them left to right and sharpen them after pricrastunating for a while. Cheap and lazy I guess. No fancy edge angles. Keep them kind of sharp and flat and waxed enough to get me around the traverses. Sometimes the bottom of the edges may have burs for a while. Not on the clock or in gates, just need a little edge or glide occasionally in my pow skis
As much as I like my gpo’s, I miss my protests. They make the funkiest snow easy and pretty much everywhere fun. Pretty stoked to see a 179 wootest become available. 123 waisted woopro might have added benefits/versatility . Hope yours work for you eventually, if not they’re ez to sell and you have your gpo and q’s that sound pretty sweet

Hey, I think Im going to finally pull the trigger on a pair after lurking for a while. Im a bit confused on the preferred construction for inbounds freeride. Im thinking Enduro Carbon Veneer Flex 3?

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Originally Posted by Evil E

Hey, I think Im going to finally pull the trigger on a pair after lurking for a while. Im a bit confused on the preferred construction for inbounds freeride. Im thinking Enduro Carbon Veneer Flex 3?

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Depends on where you are, how big you are and how you ski. I think flex 3 is right for a pow ski, but others like 4. I'm 175# and ski Colorado. If I was in maritime a 3+ or 4 would be better.