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That mortality rate is why certain streams are closed to fishing, and even C&R is not allowed. It's not an emotional thing it's a biological thing. It's similar to the point that studies have shown that killing coyotes works in the very short term, but not in the long term, and in fact makes more coyotes.
Edit to add that it would make more sense to shoot rubber bullets at the coyotes in your area to teach them to avoid your space.
What a reasonable proposition.
And.... how is this a problem? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb
Outdoor pets in coyote country is pretty foolish. Don't get me wrong, I love cats and that's sad, but it's also dumb.
My neighbors with the Anatolian Shepherd to protect their sheep don't have a coyote problem.
Rubber bullets are most likely to grievously maim or mortally wound a coyote sized animal (~30lbs). We are talking about something that can maim or kill a 200lbs human.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
It would be like hunting deer with a .22. Inhumane.
What about hunting deer and elk with paintballs? I would have had a nice trophy a few weeks backAttachment 186246Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
In my backyard. Yesterday we saw the biggest bull elk I've ever seen out in the Colockum WA. Need a paint gun.
Oh I imagine Woodrow on his porch with a suppressed AR in his bathrobe with a cup of coffee shooting those coyotes. Can't wake the woman. Amirite?
Then something else. A fence like iceman suggested?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
My neighbors do this too. With their herds 24/7. Predators are thick here, but so long as they steer clear of the herds .. no problems with the Tolys.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
A reasonable solution, it seems.
These folks live in town and the cats were in /out pets.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy
OK, if they swallow the hook or (worse) are body/gut-hooked you have a point. Otherwise a pinched barb hook through the lip is not going to harm them. Hook, retrieve, net, release. They are out of the water MAYBE 30 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by KQ
Again, this is all predicated on the fisherman knowing what they're about. My friend has a trout stream 100ft behind his house. We fish there all the time. If the activity was so stressful to the fish then they would start dwindling, and they by no means are.
Coyotes aren't dwindling...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippster
I never claimed they were. I wasn't the one who brought up C&R fishing as a comp, you were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Clearly the fish population can sustain the losses. That is your argument in favor of C&R. It is a conservationist argument.
I don't know what you think about shooting some coyotes for pest control, so I'm not necessarily calling you out.
I'm calling out people who think it's wrong to kill a coyote in a pasture or around residences for pest control but are OK with C&R which does kill and injure fish.
I'm calling out the people who spout the preservationist Deep Ecology Ethic for doggie like animals but are conservationists when it comes to animals that aren't fuzzy and cute.
AK47 actually and my can is stuck in ATF lala land while waiting for the paperwork to clear. But coffee and bathrobe are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronWright
She's actually the one who makes me shoot them. She woke me up at 3 am the other night "coyotes are barking, wake up!!!! Go shoot them!!!" I ignored her and went back to sleep. I would probably leave them alone if it wasn't for her.
Not one to let a tragedy go to waste, I have been using the night time howling coyotes as a talking point to lobby for night vision goggles and rifle scope. Or maybe a thermal. Yeah honey, if only I had a $5000 thermal rifle scope, then I'd be able to keep your dog safe from the vicious packs of coyotes.
Here's a visual representation of coyote vs. human land. I should add, human land is only about 2 acres. This is what the coyotes and I have worked out. It seems to have worked pretty well for everyone. I see them when I'm out hiking the land above my house. I enjoy watching them hunt and play in coyote land.
Attachment 186248
I like your reasoning for the NVD.
spin on oil filters.
Anything for more cool gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb
Well, I'm neither. I'm arguing that killing the coyote that comes onto your "zone" does not get rid of coyotes. It gets rid of that specific coyote. The research I've read, (some of which is in this very thread), says you are creating more coyotes, through pack dynamic disruption, and other things, (all readily available information). That's the long term issue I'm arguing. There's probably a more sustainable, easier way, to keep coyotes from killing your pets.Quote:
I'm calling out people who think it's wrong to kill a coyote in a pasture or around residences for pest control but are OK with C&R which does kill and injure fish.
I'm calling out the people who spout the preservationist Deep Ecology Ethic for doggie like animals but are conservationists when it comes to animals that aren't fuzzy and cute.
I'm on your side. I'm telling you that I believe killing those coyotes that come across your zone is probably not the best way to stop coyotes, (in general), from "bothering" you. I'm saying if you did something else, you'd probably have less coyote issues.
Talked to my neighbor this morning. He was out riding in the wheat field between our places with his dogs and a coyote came up and nabbed the smallest one. Dog got away but was pretty much eviscerated so he had to put him down.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb
Your neighbor sounds like a dipshit.
So far the cases for killing coyotes are:
1. Coyotes trespassed on an arbitrarily drawn boundary.
2. Coyotes are plentiful.
3. Coyotes lack human awareness and reasoning.
4. Coyotes are fish.
This one was in suburban Boston the other day just strolling through the feeding pens/yards
Attachment 186255
Buh? Why is he a dipshit? He was riding his horse with his dogs tagging along when a coyote came up and grabbed one of the dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
I see you point.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
My counter is that:
Population increase and dispersion is mostly due to mass killing coyotes (bounty and directly sponsored mass hunts, helicopter hunts, and mass poisoning). This should end.
Killing a few individuals in residential/livestock zones probably doesn't noticeably affect population but probably deters the respective pack from those zones.
Q: if killing a coyote for just doing what it does is wrong do you also then allow rats and mice to just do what comes naturally and, as Mazderati put it " trespassed on an arbitrarily drawn boundary" into your pantry? I mean there just trying to live their little rodent lives and all...........
I know a couple people who have had that happen. Normally seems to be bird dogs that are happy go lucky and don't have mean bone in their body. Like mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by KQ
Attachment 186256
And their territory now expands into what was once - trigger warning - wolf territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Well, DUH!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
Now why don't you talk about your views on fishing and also answer KQ point about rats.
Rats are smart and fuzzy, just like coyotes, after all!
My previous Golden kicked a coyotes ass once.. I'd never seen him get mad and never did again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier
My current one wouldn't stand a chance, even back in his prime years.... other than perhaps by running away... he's a coward... but he's fast.
On a similar note neighbors in GW had their Pyrenean Mountain Dog killed by a cougar on Friday..
In a month the town will be full of mostly american fisherman cuz the C & R steelhead industry is big money around here for guides resturants and lodgings I often wonder how many times these fish have been caught & released
most of the fisherman handle the fish very gently, don't pick the fish up very far out of the water, maybe they crouch with it for a picture, release and have a slug of scotch
we had a Kiwi kayak here for a couple of years and he said downunder it was common practise to handle the fish they might release using a dish towel
Your argument is to attempt elimination of a predatory nuisance. That was and is the same argument for wolves, mountain lions, panthers, and jaguars. The results have been and continue to be a decimated population, extirpation, and some other nuisance that fills the void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Never had a rat or mouse problem so am not qualified to have an opinion on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
If wolves were common like coyotes the same DMZ would apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
I had a black bear come through the field one time, that was pretty cool.
Coyotes are far more common in urban environments than most people realize. Check out this sighting map from Portland http://blog.nature.org/science/2016/...tizen-science/Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy
More info
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/coywo...-coywolf/8605/
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/meet-...-habitat/8640/
http://www.urbancoyoteproject.com/bl...-urban-coyotes
5. mazz is acting like a doucheQuote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
Excellent posts in this thread, riser. Really. Fantastic contribution.
KQ your neighbor is a dipshit for knowing there are coyotes around and having a dog that is coyote candy out with him, unprotected. He must have really loved that dog.
I've changed my mind, he's a grade A #1 asshole.
Where have I argued for that? Also that is not happening...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati
You do realize those are the same thing, right?Quote:
mountain lions, panthers
Also that there is an overpopulation of those animals...
Have you had a coyote problem?Quote:
Never had a rat or mouse problem so am not qualified to have an opinion on the topic.
Or should we also assume that you have never been fishing? ;)
You have no counter argument because your reasoning is inconsistent. You are engaged in special pleading for Fido-esque wild predators.
Are we sure he isn't a pio alias?Quote:
Originally Posted by riser3
Huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Assume whatever you want. You've done it the entire discussion.
I have never, until now, considered killing coyotes purely for the sake of killing them. So you should congratulate yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazderati