What's the number?

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Originally Posted by flowing alpy

haven't heard from this dude for awhile, wonder if 2large would still be enough.

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2 large is $2000, I'd want more than that.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Agreed. That's my point. Keys to happiness #1 and #2 are low expectations and low overhead.

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I wonder if minimalists are more happy or maybe just less unhappy?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

...the number depends ... on how much you need

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

It's more about what you want than what you need.

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This thread is almost 4 years old and that was obvious from the start. What I was hoping to do was use peoples' thoughts to help build a case to the wife that we already had enough to extract ourselves from the system. I was hoping to convince her to dial shit back, retrench, cut expenses and gtfo, but now it's abundantly clear that she'll never do that.

On the other hand it's also clear that if she retired I'd probably have to divorce her or kill her and I don't really want to do either of those right this minute (other minutes I feel differently), and she really doesn't care much what I do, so no number for us but if if this is prison it's a pretty damn nice prison.

There's a lot of people who can't envision life without the structure, challenges and quantifiable rewards of work. There's several of them who have posted in this thread, note the comments about not being able to envision sitting on the couch and so on. It has become apparent that my wife is one of them, although I wasn't really positive that was the case when I started the thread, I still thought she could channel her energy into things outside of working.

I however am definitely not one of those people.

"Retiring from" working fulltime does not need to mean sitting on the couch doing nothing. If that's all someone can envision as "retirement," then that person should keep working.

"Retiring to" activities that working fulltime does not permit is what I want. I have so many things I want to do, places to go, books to read, etc., that I just don't have time for now. I will not be bored, sitting on the couch, doing nothing. It's all about freedom.

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Originally Posted by iceman

There's a lot of people who can't envision life without the structure, challenges and quantifiable rewards of work. There's several of them who have posted in this thread, note the comments about not being able to envision sitting on the couch and so on. It has become apparent that my wife is one of them, although I wasn't really positive that was the case when I started the thread, I still thought she could channel her energy into things outside of working.

I however am definitely not one of those people.

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My father in law worked up to VP level at Northwest Airlines, took an early retirement package in mid 90's, went back to work 4 months later for an area college. He is now 77, has never had any hobbies at all, still pissed off he's retired. Has really turned into a miserable person to be around, always looking for things to fix. He has decided that he is going to pay for his 7 grandkids education. My poor MIL hits the white wine and clear booze on the reg to fix. My wife promises not to be that way. I told her if she is I will kick her old ass to the curb in a hot second.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

One of my ex-law firm partners put it this way when he was enlightening his son about how to live the good life: Work is something that, if someone didn't pay you for it, you wouldn't do it. That's why they call it "work." Don't count on work as the means to fulfill your life aspirations because, if you do, you'll find yourself someday in the fucked up state where work is a surrogate for more rewarding avocational pursuits. So, find a way use your natural talents to make money so that someday you won't need to work (or, at least, can cut down to part time work) and thus can have more time to pursue your avocations. In shorthand: Work to live, don't live to work.

Nobody had to teach me that wisdom. I figured it out early in life via pursuing numerous avocations. But I saw, and still see, lots of people in my profession (law) who rely on work to fulfill themselves. I pity them.

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Funny, but my old man was a physics professor. He worked long hours doing stuff he loved as well as grading papers, counseling students, reviewing papers, before doing administration stuff in order to earn more. But then he went back to doing physics, solved a longstanding problem in statistical mechanics and didn't stop working until he was 70.

He worked, but he loved his work. Now he's too old to do his research anymore. But I'm pretty sure that's a counterexample. One can enjoy work like one can enjoy a good climb up some peak.

As for me, I wasn't so focused and I fell into doing something I'm tired of now. It was fun for a while.

Even better if you find both. Work that you love and know how to kick it to the curb at 30-40hrs/week to enjoy some hobbies. Like with food, balance is good.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

...I saw, and still see, lots of people in my profession (law) who rely on work to fulfill themselves. I pity them.

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It's like pitying someone for being lefthanded or gay or some other thing they can't control I've concluded. Pity is not something they want or need.They just are that way. They're only unhappy when it stops, note flatlander's comment above. And if they can keep working, and want to, then where does pity come in?

In fact they probably pity an aimless fool like me but I sure as hell don't need anybody's pity either

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

Work that you love and know how to kick it to the curb at 30-40hrs/week to enjoy some hobbies.

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Work that I merely like @ 10 hours/week avg. is much better. Trust me on this.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Nah. They're in that fucked up state because early in life they eschewed more enlightening pursuits in favor of work or, more likely, had kids and/or got buried in debt and thus had no choice but to do little more than work, eat and sleep.

Sounds like he went back to something that wasn't work to him, i.e., something he'd do even if someone weren't paying him to do it. Good on him. That's similar to post-career volunteer work or taking a big pay cut to do public service work.

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The point is that one can get paid and absorbed by something one loves. Those people are kind of lucky and kind of tortured. I fail myself for not finding what I really wanted to do more longterm rather than claiming it can't be done.

The smug is strong with this one.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

That's an old tired myth, not reality except for that 1 in 10,000 hugely lucky person, e.g., professional athlete or someone who actually makes a living in the arts. Other than those very rare situations, everyone I've met who claims to "love my work" is delusional and/or oblivious.

I should know better to avoid these discussions. People do not want to hear about the defense mechanisms that keep them going.

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I grew up surrounded by scientists who loved what they did and got paid. A bunch of my friends are artists or musicians who may not make a lot, but they manage. I'm not a myth and neither are they.

But I do think some people won't take the responsibility for not finding what they really wanted to do and claim it's a myth to do so.

The Atlantic: Why ‘Do What You Love’ Is Pernicious Advice

Do What You Love And Other Lies about Success and Happiness

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Work that I merely like @ 10 hours/week avg. is much better. Trust me on this.

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It'll be a few years before I can pull that off. Pretty young still. 25-30hrs, something I love and very little stress is just fine for me right now though. Can't imagine it much better. I guess if I had kids 10-15hrs would feel closer to right.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

So, now you're calling me irresponsible? WTF? I found and developed a career that was a good fit for my talents, had sufficient rewards (to counter the stress) and allowed me to hit "the number" (which is what this thread is about). Had I required that my career be something I loved, I'd be broke because nobody is going to pay me to explore the wilderness or birdwatch or ski or do high routes. So, actually, I took the path of responsibility.

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Look, you're claiming that mountain guides or ornithologists or anybody that loves what they do is a myth.

You're not taking responsibility for not choosing to do what you loved and trying to devalue those that did.

Insisting that either it's a myth or a lie if someone makes that claim is not taking responsibility for your own choices.

Sure, sometimes it's a lie, but lots of times it's not. Some people like to work and some people have the balls to go do what they wanted for a living and I think it's really cheap and scarce to claim that it's a myth.

If this is coming off like I've made the choice to do something I loved, nananananana, you're not reading this right. I'm not loving what I do now and I'd like to stop, but I can't.

At least I'll take responsibility for my choices rather than attempting to devalue the truth of those that make a choice to do what they love.

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Originally Posted by iceman

On the other hand it's also clear that if she retired I'd probably have to divorce her or kill her and I don't really want to do either of those right this minute (other minutes I feel differently)...

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Because you'd get twice the wife, but half the money.

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Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw

2m is a good number. Should be able to draw at least 100k/year off of that without too much trouble and leave it behind for the progeny.

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Pretty clear you suck at math, too. My guess is that the wife does all the finances.

Of the older, "retired" people I know, I envy lawyers the most. Cool way to make spare change until the end.

NYT: The Tyranny of the Forced Smile

The Myth of the Dream Job and the True Pursuit of Happiness

One of the common mistakes I see is that most underestimate the money save by not going to work. My sis is really smart and when the Gov of NY asked her to head up a department 4 hours from where she lived instead of retiring, she ended up having to rent an apartment and do an 8 hour commute home and back on weekends. Kept saying she couldn't afford to retire. When she got tossed under the bus she did retire and saved $15k/yr right off the bat. Now her and her husband travel a lot with that money and all the extra time. What she really stayed for the the rush of the job and feeling needed.

Larry David was asked why he started working again, doing that HBO series after making more money than God has from Senfield, and he said, you gotta have a place to go to.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Mountain guides = baby sitters. All the guides I know, when speaking frankly, concede that that there's nothing to love about baby sitting clients. That's not limited to mountain guides.

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That's not my experience.

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I was a professional musician for a short time, a proud member of the American Federation of Musicians Local 474. An old timer pro, who had chops I could dream of having, advised me to get out because, in his experience, the joy squirts out sideways when something you love becomes work.

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Also, not my experience having musician friends from the Seattle Symphony to jazz guitarists and rock bass players.

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At least you concede that, although the better qualifier is "usually." The "you gotta love your work" myth was created by The Man as a means to keep gullible workers in line, i.e., your work provides passion so why pay you more? Fortunately, numerous commentators have figured it out and are exposing the fraud. See, e.g., NYT: The Tyranny of the Forced Smile; The Myth of the Dream Job and the True Pursuit of Happiness and the links in my prior post.

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All those article misconstrue the point that there are people who do make a living doing what they love. This is distinct from forcing yourself to think you like your grind in the machine which is what all those articles are about.

Authors, actors, artists, musicians, scientists, professors, builders, mechanics, lots of people of merit make their way doing stuff they love on their own terms, not working for the man.

We may both be old. I'll let life judge who is more bitter.

Big Steve should of worked for Dan McHale. I am sure Dan loves his job.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Pretty clear you suck at math, too. My guess is that the wife does all the finances.

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meh, he's not far off the standard 4% rule of thumb that gets tossed around, just optimistic.

$20K makes a big difference at that income level.

20-30M. IMO its about generational wealth and trying to set up, at the very least, educational trusts for your descendants.

However, I sell cars to a guy worth more than The Donald, and that puts shit in perspective. Extreme wealth.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Mountain guides = baby sitters. All the guides I know, when speaking frankly, concede that that there's nothing to love about baby sitting clients. That's not limited to mountain guides. I was a professional musician for a short time, a proud member of the American Federation of Musicians Local 474. An old timer pro, who had chops I could dream of having, advised me to get out because, in his experience, the joy squirts out sideways when something you love becomes work.

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There's some serious truth to that. You take your favorite hobby and create a job out of it, it still feels like work and has a shitty side to it. I prefer to keep my hobbies as hobbies and try to find something else that I enjoy to make a living off of.

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Originally Posted by iceman

I however am definitely not one of those people.

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Me either. I can't say I get bored when I'm not working. There are so many other things I like to do. Heck, to be honest, sleep is one of them. I'm way more likely to be bored at work than at home.

I do think there are people who absolutely love their work. I also think there are those who can't envision life without the structure and challenges of work--as you said--and then I think there are the rest of us and I think we're likely the majority.

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Originally Posted by Beer Drinker

20-30M. IMO its about generational wealth and trying to set up, at the very least, educational trusts for your descendants.

However, I sell cars to a guy worth more than The Donald, and that puts shit in perspective. Extreme wealth.

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Will you adopt me? I promise to call every week and never forget your birthday.

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Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Pretty clear you suck at math, too. My guess is that the wife does all the finances.

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You're figuring it'd be tough to draw 5% on the regular? Or are you deducting for what you consider to be normal dealership repair and litigation fees?

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

That's an old tired myth, not reality except for that 1 in 10,000 hugely lucky person, e.g., professional athlete or someone who actually makes a living in the arts. Other than those very rare situations, everyone I've met who claims to "love my work" is delusional and/or oblivious.

I should know better to avoid these discussions. People do not want to hear about the defense mechanisms that keep them going.

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It's this cynicism and despair that makes the great compromise (working for the weekend) possible. When you have faith in yourself, and possess an absolute determination to make all of your life an expression of your truest self, then you do. We all understand the pressure to conform with a social and economic system at odds with our best inclinations, but that does not mean it's inevitable, just that many don't have what it takes to navigate the pathless path. Positing that it's only the lucky few who've succeeded in professional sports and the arts only reveals how completely you've bought into the conventional narrative.

5% year after year? Those days are behind us.

There is a consensus among financial planners that, due to near-zero returns on ubersafe debt investments, the best play for most people who have a decent chunk of $$ in their retirement accounts is to plan on drawing down on the retirement account principal if that's what it takes to take SS late. Starting at age 62, as each year passes your SS benefits grow at an annual rate of 7%+. See https://www.merrilledge.com/publish/...opic_paper.pdf

Fall in Love with Your Job, Get Ripped Off by Your Boss

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

5% year after year? Those days are behind us.

There is a consensus among financial planners that, due to near-zero returns on ubersafe debt investments, the best play for most people who have a decent chunk of $$ in their retirement accounts is to plan on drawing down on the retirement account principal if that's what it takes to take SS late. Starting at age 62, as each year passes your SS benefits grow at an annual rate of 7%+. See https://www.merrilledge.com/publish/...opic_paper.pdf

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Interesting... I hadn't really considered taking SS at all.. Of course I would if the benefits exist at that time, but with that 2034 date floating around, I'm not banking on it. I'm figuring to keep earning an income consulting pretty much for forever... I can't imagine giving up working with computers. That's a different subject.. I had just read a BB article discussing annual returns that included this paragraph:

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The average investor realizes returns of about 3.7 percent. That’s far below any of the market returns discussed above. This underperformance occurs regardless of the investment vehicle, whether it's mutual funds, hedge funds or just plain old stocks. The reason investors tend to underperform is that they chase alpha (above-market returns) and fail, rather than aim for beta (market-matching returns) and succeed.

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Doesn't seem so bad. Anyway, what does that mean, I need another million or two? Okay.

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Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw

Doesn't seem so bad. Anyway, what does that mean, I need another million or two? Okay.

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3.7% is bad compared to the 7-8% annual growth of your SS benefit between age 62 and 70. That's the point. But, yeah, I can see how that might seem irrelevant to a guy your age.

I am optimistic that SS and Medicare will be around when you retire. Remember that when FDR pushed for SS, the idea was to enable older people to retire, thus loosening labor supply, opening up jobs to young people and creating upward pressure on wages. We need that moving forward to setoff labor contraction effects of technology and global cheap labor. I am encouraged to hear guys like Rand Paul, etc., talk about saving SS/Medicare via gradual adjustment of retirement age (SS already has that, but not Medicare) when just a few years ago they were taking about abolishing SS altogether.

35 years in the law, pushing 60 and trying to get out, watching your investments like a hawk, you're like a regular matador to convention Steve. You seem like a nice enough guy but c'mon get serious man.

I actualy added it all up on a handy napkin and depending on how long I keep breathing ( for DB pensions sake lets say 90) the number is between 1.5 and 2 for just me

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Originally Posted by Lindahl

There's some serious truth to that. You take your favorite hobby and create a job out of it, it still feels like work and has a shitty side to it. I prefer to keep my hobbies as hobbies and try to find something else that I enjoy to make a living off of.

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A young bud recently gave up her steelhead fishing guide gig for good, she cited unkind stereotypes about dealing with a largely male old boy republican clientel (imagine that?) as her reason for giving it up to become a teacher ... hopefully the kids will be better behaved

Another year later bump.

So, anyone's plans changed due to the Trump election?

Well if the stock market keeps doing what it has since he was elected than def sooner than later... The market has been on a tear since he won and whether or not you hate him or like him you have to love what it has done to your 401k and private investments...