WHERE IS BUSH?!

Local, state, and national government have screwed this from the beginning. The only agencies that are trying to do things right (national guard and military) are for some reason short on resources and lack direction from the civilians running the show and are being tripped up by other agencies (FEMA tried to close the primary National Guard fuel/food/water depot yesterday).

I've been listening to the scanner feeds for two days. It's a cluster. They are so short on resources it is amazing. Meanwhile, extra assets are staging in the region but have received no orders to proceed in. I wish I could go down there and help but I can't leave my job.

Emergency Management is not an exact science and these events are chaotic by nature, but this is rediculous. FEMA has proven a big dissapointment. FEMA is supposed to manage the entire nation being destroyed and they can't handle a city.

NOLA is in chaos. They are shooting cops, shooting rescue boats, shooting rescue helicopters, shooting at firemen putting out fires, shooting at EMTs and paramedics, looting, burning, pillaging, and raping.

I heard a doc on the radio. Tthey are so fucked down there. They have critical pts in depleted out of comission hospitals sitting on the roofs... waiting... NG/CG are scambling to medevac... can't believe they havent contracted more private helicopters from around the nation. I cant believe they turned away airboats offering to help. They could have had more of these people out of the flood zone, especially the sick and elderly who had to shelter in place.

This is bigger than most realize. Two months... before they can even start assessing and repairing. Maybe they'll rehabitate some areas in early 06. LA is one of the poorest states and NOLA is one of the poorest cities. Will all those people want to return? Where will they go? What will they go back to? Do you think they all had flood insurance? Many of those houses weren't fit to habitate before the flood and will need to be torn down.

The French Quarter may be mostly dry but we've lost an entire city (80-90% destroyed).

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Originally Posted by huck4bucks

In the coming months as blogs, camera phones, and first-hand accounts begin to tell tales that we can't even imagine, I think there's going to be a lot of explaining to do on the government's side. Why can we commandeer jet liners to fly thousands of soldiers to Iraq for Desert Storm, but we can't get boats and busses to evacuate a US city? Why can we launch 'Shock and Awe' in Baghdad, but we can't drop MREs and water bags over New Orleans? How can we spend more money on military than any other country on the planet, but we can't out fire-power thugs with handguns? Why can we dispatch full Naval ships to save 16 Russian sub sailors in less than a day hours, but it takes us over 48 hours to have rescuers to get their poop in a group? Where's our HOMELAND SECURITY? This is the fucking HOMELAND.

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Truer words never spoken.

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Originally Posted by Mcwop

Sorry, but hurricanes are not new, and there were plenty before Bush and Kyoto. Bush fucked up on this one but it wasn't freaking Kyoto.

I bet the people in NO wish more time was spent on hurricane preparedness, and their levees than Kyoto - which would not have stopped this storm.

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Hurricane's have been around forever, you are completely right. But when the intesity and number of hurricanes have been increasing over the past few decades (I lost count of how many there were last year. Katrina is the strongest since 1900-something), and everything points to warming oceans as the culprit, we need to go to the source of the problem. Sure there was nothing we could have done in the short-term to prevent or foresee levees breaking, and the massive destruction that Katrina caused, but shouldn't we be trying to alter this course we've set ourselves on?

If, for instance, scientists discovered that high-rise skyscrapers were causing more intense earthquakes, don't you think we'd get legislation that would limit the number of skyskrapers being built? Of course earthquakes have been around since Day 1, but if we had the chance to help reduce strong earthquakes, why wouldn't we do it?

Why wouldn't Bush want to reduce greenhouse gases by signing Kyoto? At least when Katrina knocked on NO door, the country could rest assured knowing that we were doing the best we could to limit global warming in the future.

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Originally Posted by huck4bucks

Hurricane's have been around forever, you are completely right. But when the intesity and number of hurricanes have been increasing over the past few decades (I lost count of how many there were last year. Katrina is the strongest since 1900-something), and everything points to warming oceans as the culprit, we need to go to the source of the problem. Sure there was nothing we could have done in the short-term to prevent or foresee levees breaking, and the massive destruction that Katrina caused, but shouldn't we be trying to alter this course we've set ourselves on?

If, for instance, scientists discovered that high-rise skyscrapers were causing more intese earthquakes, don't you think we'd get legislation that would limit the number of skyskrapers being built? Of course earthquakes have been around since Day 1, but if we had the chance to help reduce strong earthquakes, why wouldn't we do it?

Why wouldn't Bush want to reduce greenhouse gases by signing Kyoto? At least when Katrina knocked on NO door, the country could rest assured knowing that we were doing the best we could to limit global warming in the future.

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Unfortunately, I don't have the faith that the U.S. will meet reduced CO2 emissions. But your point is well taken despite my cynicism.

The good news is that food and bus convoys are now reaching NO.

This is not about Kyoto. You know, no one is happy about the way this thing has been responded to by the federal government, but I can't remember a thread here regarding NO levees. I know my thoughts on the core of engineer's control of the Mississippi prior to the hurricane was "fuck it." A natural disaster will change the flow of the river to where it should enter the gulf, some 100 miles west of NO. I had very little compassion for the core's lack of funding because I thought what they did with the whole thing was morally wrong. Now, people are dying and we're watching it on TV. Suddenly, everyone is screaming "where was the core's funding?" and "why didn't the government do anything to prepare for this?" I know noone here was asking these questions before Katrina.

Corps of Engineers

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Originally Posted by PacRimRider1

This is not about Kyoto. You know, no one is happy about the way this thing has been responded to by the federal government, but I can't remember a thread here regarding NO levees. I know my thoughts on the core of engineer's control of the Mississippi prior to the hurricane was "fuck it." A natural disaster will change the flow of the river to where it should enter the gulf, some 100 miles west of NO. I had very little compassion for the core's lack of funding because I thought what they did with the whole thing was morally wrong. Now, people are dying and we're watching it on TV. Suddenly, everyone is screaming "where was the core's funding?" and "why didn't the government do anything to prepare for this?" I know noone here was asking these questions before Katrina.

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We've seen this after just about every disaster. After 9/11 the people asked, "Why didn't the gov't do something? Why didn't they know about these people? They should have done something to stop this from ever happening."

Now we hear the same questions, "Where's the money/support? Why weren't we prepared? Didn't the gov't see this coming?"

I guess hindsight is 20/20. Maybe we need a jillionaire soothsayer for a leader. They only thing I can hope for is that heads will roll and we'll be better equipped to handle large-scale emergencies in the future.

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Originally Posted by shamrockpow

I was about to make this exact same point. Yes, there are armed thugs, but how many people are just trying to protect themselves in a complete state of lawlessness? And without any access to communications, how are those same CITIZENS supposed to learn about "shoot to kill" orders?

And we thought the London police were bad :nonono2:

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I'm sorry...you guys are right. The military is probably going to stop all people with guns and politely ask "So, are you trying to protect yourself with that or are you a bad guy? I apologize for butting in to your constitutional right to bear arms, but we kind of need to know because we are trying to restore order here. So which is it?" :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure they will be working on confiscating guns and I'm pretty sure people who will not cooperate are going to face some serious reprecussions. That's all I'm saying.

Sprite

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Originally Posted by Alek

You do realize it's a FUNDAMENTAL right of US citizens to carry arms. A right
I personally strongly disagree with, but nonetheless. The only reason you think it's OK to shoot people with guns in New Orleans is because they are poor and black. Would you advocate shooting white people in the suburbs who carry guns?

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Originally Posted by shamrockpow

I was about to make this exact same point. Yes, there are armed thugs, but how many people are just trying to protect themselves in a complete state of lawlessness? And without any access to communications, how are those same CITIZENS supposed to learn about "shoot to kill" orders?

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I strongly agree with the right to bear arms...

It's simple... if you see the police or soldiers don't point your guns in their direction or move towards them if you are openly carrying weapons. This is common sense: aggressive action while openly armed.

I've been listening to NOLA EMS/FF/LEO/NG/CG radio... every hour someone starts shooting at EMTs, Firefighters, Police, etc... not 30 minutes ago a police officer and several firefighters were calling for backup because they were pinned down by fire from a rooftop (someone was displeased that they chose to help a different building first).

A NG helo was shot and a person injured, a rescue boat pilot was shot, several police officers have been shot.

Are they supposed to stand there, take it, and not return fire?

I say bring in some AH-64 Apache Gunships to cruise over the area... that should put the fear of God into those who would shoot at rescuers after the first demonstration against a sniper.

You cannot rescue people if the rescuers have to fear that the people they are trying to rescue may murder them. This is part of the reason 60% of NOPD have simply turned in their badges or not shown.

How are they supposed to know about shoot-to-kill? What the heck do they think is going to happen if they shoot at an EMT, soldier, or police officer???

There have been a lot of comments regarding the lack of planning and trying to determine whos fault all this is. While there is cetainly enough blame and evidence of lack of leadership to go around, this may shed some light on the difficulties local and state governments have had in recent years in developing disaster plans. My dad was the fire department chief in a mid sized midwestern city that also has a major shipping port. In his capacity he worked with several local, state and regional groups on disaster planning. After 9/11 and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, budgets allocated through FEMA and other sources for local disaster relief/response efforts were cut dramatically. The resources were shifted to policing duties, ie. dealing with terrorist issues. Local authorities didn't have the funds to plan for these types of events. In addition the communication between local state and federal levels regarding these types of events dropped off as well. He also said the system of response is a bureaucratic mess. State officials will not respond until requested to by local officials. Federal won't act until States request help.

So when some of you ask, what could GW do? or why are you blaming the federal government? The answer is the same as for many other issues. What are the priorities that we want to demand from our government? Do we expect our government to plan for disaster relief in the event of catastrophe, to maintain order, to protect and assist those that do not have the physical or financial ability to help themselves in situations like this. Should we expect leaders to break the bureaucratic log jam and actually anticipate needs in the event of a cat 4 hurricane rather than wait for a mayor to go throught the chain of command?

Our elected leaders on the national level CHOSE tax cuts, funding a war in Iraq and subsidies to energy companies as higher priorities than levee maintenance and disaster planning. If you don't think these were the correct priorities then lay the blame and vote the bastards out. If you think that they made the right choices then you have to think that what is going on in New Orleans is an acceptable alternative. Or maybe you prefer to blame 84 year old people, young mothers and children with no resources and people with no money to evacuate themselves for their own predicament.

There are a lot of dead due solely to the hurricane. But IMO, there are a lot of dead due to the priorities chosen by elected officials. So unfortunately this is a political issue.

It's about time they made bearing arms NOT A FUCKING RIGHT.

Give a man a stick and the opportunity to use it without comeback upon his fellow man and he will. Give that same man a gun...

This situation in NO has reduced people to those base choices. In more normal circumstances only a vanishingly tiny percentage of people need to use a gun. The right to bear arms causes many more problems than it's worth.

Of course, I'm not even an American so I've made my point and will now shut my trap.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

It's about time they made bearing arms NOT A FUCKING RIGHT.

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Hell, that's solved the drug problem here!

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Originally Posted by likwid

Do you know what Martial Law means?

No?

Go look it up then come back.

also....

THE COAST GUARD HAS SUSPENDED FLIGHTS BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING SHOT AT

Now, back to paypal'ing various assistance groups.

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likwid, you are misinformed as well as a dick

The stories of shooting at helicopters seem to have been fabricated to cover up the fact that there was not nearly enough of them


Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said other evacuations were continuing and were not affected by trash fires burning outside the Superdome. Law enforcement officers will ride with the school buses, he said.

"At the Superdome, we have a report that one shot was fired at a Chinook helicopter," Schneider said, adding that the Chinook is "an extremely large aircraft."

Laura Brown, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Washington, said she had no such report.
"We're controlling every single aircraft in that airspace and none of them reported being fired on," she said, adding that the FAA was in contact with the military as well as civilian aircraft.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1087205

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl...ness/img/1.jpg
This guy's allowed a gun though. He's cool.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

It's about time they made bearing arms NOT A FUCKING RIGHT.

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Sweet... then the law abiding shop owners can't have any guns to defend their TV stores from the criminal looters (criminals don't care about gun laws) and parents can't have any guns to defend their children from the rapists. Sweet!

And FYI law abiding citizens do NOT have the same access to firepower as police and military.

Keep your nose out of our Bill of Rights you damned redcoat. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Summit

parents can't have any guns to defend their children from the rapists.

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Wow, I didn't know shrinks were so bad.

Oh, the rapists...

:fm:

You need to take a look and see how the rest of the 'civilised world' works, kiddo. :D

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

Of course, I'm not even an American so I've made my point and will now shut my trap.

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When? :D

Now one of the buses headed to Texas flipped over and killed someone...this is just retarded. Not to mention the building full of firefighters trapped in a building by snipers...

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

You need to take a look and see how the rest of the 'civilised world' works, kiddo. :D

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I'm sorry, how many people died in France last year during a goddamned heat wave?

not exactly a natural disaster.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Now one of the buses headed to Texas flipped over and killed someone...this is just retarded. Not to mention the building full of firefighters trapped in a building by snipers...

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snipers?!?!

This is situation is bearing resemblence to Somalia more and more.............

You know, Salt Lake City is going to open a shelter with the Red Cross. I've been an instructor / volunteer with them, and am on their email list as part of a disaster response team, and this is what I've received today:

#1
Subject: ****Attention RED CROSS volunteers***


If you haven't been deployed yet.....

The Governor of Utah is welcoming 1000 disaster refugees to Utah. The
Red Cross is making plans to house these people and will need help if
they do come. Right now we are planning on using the military base in SL
county to house many of these people but that is still in the works. I
don't have may details yet but if you feel like you could help please
send me an email and I will get more info to you as I get it. You will
need to have had taken the Intro and Mass Care courses and the shelter
classes are a plus. Thank you.

Katrina Pope
Director of Emergency Services
Mountain Valley Chapter
American Red Cross

#2
Volunteers,

Thank you so much for being willing to help.
The Red Cross has announced that the shelter at Camp Williams will be
designated DR 030. DR stands for disaster response and thus is
considered a national response. This means that people who would like to
help need to go through the same processes as if they were going to the
Hurricane affected area. The requirements are: Must be available for 2
weeks for full day or night shifts, must have taken Intro and Mass Care
as a minimum, must apply to be in the DSHR national recruiting system
which requires paperwork, a visit with a nurse, etc. If you are still
interested, please let me know.
There are also needs here at the chapter, I need help answering phones
during the day and I will need help with some data entry. Let me know if
you would like to help with this.

Katrina Pope
Director of Emergency Services
Mountain Valley Chapter
American Red Cross

The classes she is talking about are not long, nor are they difficult, and I am sure that they are arranging for last minute classes for anyone willing to volunteer that hasn't had the class yet. Any of you in the area that want to help, they'll take you. PM me for contact details. Perhaps some ski bums may have a couple weeks to spare, especially those who've been pointing fingers and saying get off your ass and help? ;)

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

I'm sorry, how many people died in France last year during a goddamned heat wave?

not exactly a natural disaster.

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You should have put heat wave in quotations. It barely got above 80.

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Originally Posted by mr_gyptian

I'm sorry, how many people died in France last year during a goddamned heat wave?

not exactly a natural disaster.

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Most of them got shot by gun toting heat addled French crazies. IIRC.

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Originally Posted by bad_roo

It's about time they made bearing arms NOT A FUCKING RIGHT.

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There are a lot of somewhat logical reasons thrown around about why we should have the right to bear arms.
- self protection (police can't help you till after you are a victim)
- right to hunt
- national defense (try invading a country with an armed populous...)
- etc.
These all pale in comparison to what I think is the main reason for this right. Americans have a long and justified history of distrust towards government power. Our forefathers had it (there are a lot of "not's" and "no's" in our constitution). Arms are seen as a check on government power and, as a last resort, a way to return power back to the people. Libertarian gun nuts respect societal and government institutions as well as the rule of law. However, they aren't blind to the fact that revolutions are sometimes needed and just.

Now, I would like to "Godwin" this discussion...

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Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State. -Heinrich Himmler

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For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future! -Adolf Hitler

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/libertarian nut
//never owned a gun in my life

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Originally Posted by cmsummit

snipers?!?!

This is situation is bearing resemblence to Somalia more and more.............

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can we atleast wait until 90,000 people die because of a forced famine?