Why all the Caroline Gleich hate?

I think what happens to demonstrate the sexism isn’t that a woman has done things or hasn’t done things that can be criticized, but what happens, and is happening to CG, is that there is a group of people who relentlessly nitpick her accomplishments to try and cast doubts on her abilities. That doesn’t happen the same way to male athletes who generally are given the benefit of the doubt.

So to go from “she’s just a ski model,” to “well she used guides,” to “well she didn’t pass her avy 3” is just moving the goalposts because they can’t admit hey have an issue with her that is about her gender.

So yeah, there may be “legitimate questions” or whatever, but none of this discussion is starting in good faith.

^ yup

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Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick

2) Complaining to the internet with a select quote from some feedback the entirety and context of which the internet isn't going to know isn't going to convince anyone other than her loyalists and certainly won't convince the haters to do anything but hate all the more.

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Her blog post isnt about why she failed Avi 3. The anecdote about her Avi 3 feedback was an example of how she feels her accomplishments have been unfairly minimized, and her instagram "fame" used against her out of either jealousy or sexism... or both.

IDK, she seems to have a point. There are a fair amount of "Yeah, but"s in this thread minimizing her accomplishments and folks unfairly latching on to one small example (the avi 3 class) from her blog post while they simultaneously accuse her of unfairly latching onto one small sample (a few lines from her class feedback).

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

I think what happens to demonstrate the sexism isn’t that a woman has done things or hasn’t done things that can be criticized, but what happens, and is happening to CG, is that there is a group of people who relentlessly nitpick her accomplishments to try and cast doubts on her abilities. That doesn’t happen the same way to male athletes who generally are given the benefit of the doubt.

So to go from “she’s just a ski model,” to “well she used guides,” to “well she didn’t pass her avy 3” is just moving the goalposts because they can’t admit hey have an issue with her that is about her gender.

So yeah, there may be “legitimate questions” or whatever, but none of this discussion is starting in good faith.

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Interesting, so you think there is a legitimate gripe here?
Seems it would be in the best interest for the avy neerds to sign off on her skills if she has the skills.?

I am keeping an open mind but it just feels like another bite at the internet apple to keep name in the public domain.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

So yeah, there may be “legitimate questions” or whatever, but none of this discussion is starting in good faith.

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Your whole post is good and says it very well. Just to add my thoughts:

I cannot recall any other athlete's "credentials" being open for discussion even when they trigger or die in avalanches, which is the point about sexism... not that any of us is deliberately acting in order to belittle someone due to their gender / holds the conscious attitude that women are inferior, just that we implicitly take for granted that the male athlete is qualified, which we don't do with the female. Musing aloud about it and saying "well, we weren't there so we don't know how the course went" is already accepting the form of the argument, that CG's credentials are up for debate.

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Originally Posted by MTT

Interesting, so you think there is a legitimate gripe here?
Seems it would be in the best interest for the avy neerds to sign off on her skills if she has the skills.?

I am keeping an open mind but it just feels like another bite at the internet apple to keep name in the public domain.

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I think expecting a sponsored athlete who is passionate about an issue to not use their platform to promote it is crazy.

People who don’t agree with her use that same sexism to try and minimize her voice by telling her to be quiet and ski, or downplay her skills and accomplishments and generally cast doubt on her that normal people start to believe. It’s internet troll/fake news 101. Say something enough and people will start to believe it.

Or they could just want to look at a rad chick skiing lines and not care for it to be wrapped up in a political message.

You seek fame and people are going to nitpick. In terms of skill nitpicking, dudes get it all the time. J Pierre fucking died for his overconfidence and people still called him out on it, post mortem. It comes with the territory. She seems to want fame and just praise.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Or they could just want to look at a rad chick skiing lines and not care for it to be wrapped up in a political message.

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yeah that's fair, that new instagram feature where you don't get to choose who you follow really has made it hard on all the sensitive apolitical types :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Or they could just want to look at a rad chick skiing lines and not care for it to be wrapped up in a political message.

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If people really wanted this they would just stop reading the text and look at the visual media. Its really pretty darn easy to keep your head in the sand and just look at the pretty pictures. Or, they could also just go look at the media another athlete produces.

But instead, they take the time out of their day to try and knock another person down a peg.

This argument always puzzles me. You seek fame, but reject all feedback that is critical? You are famous because people like you! Don't piss em off and act like they are beneath you. Then they don't like you anymore.

This whole argument comes down to "why can't I be famous and have no problems". Unfortunately that is not how the world works.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Or they could just want to look at a rad chick skiing lines and not care for it to be wrapped up in a political message that they don't like.

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also lol fify, if in 2018 the presence of politics in media at all (as opposed to the specific political message) is what you objected to you would consume no media whatsoever

I have never got that sense from CG that she rejects all criticism. How is standing up for yourself somehow bad?

Is it her fault that people stalk and troll her? That’s a real question, btw. Do you think that she could make it all stop by changing how she presents herself online?

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

Is it her fault that people stalk and troll her? That’s a real question, btw. Do you think that she could make it all stop by changing how she presents herself online?

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"she was dressed like she was asking for it" etc

What the fuck kind of logic is that? It should just be accepted that all media forms now have to have some sort of OP-ED element to them now?

People can have critiques, you don't have to love everything about something all the time.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

I have never got that sense from CG that she rejects all criticism. How is standing up for yourself somehow bad?

Is it her fault that people stalk and troll her? That’s a real question, btw. Do you think that she could make it all stop by changing how she presents herself online?

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I think I already mentioned that being stalked sucks and she shouldn't have to go through that at all. At the same time, that happens to nobody's as well. It isn't unique to her fame and kind of a separate issue. Nobody is hating on her for this and is something that can happen to anyone really. I've seen it happen to a family member. It is fucking scary.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

What the fuck kind of logic is that? It should just be accepted that all media forms now have to have some sort of OP-ED element to them now?

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When do you encourage and support someone for actively trying to effect social change that they see as positive? What medium would you encourage them to use?

Just seems like the logic you are using only gets applied when people disagree with the Op-Ed message. E.G. all the dumbasses loving jingoistic displays and ceremonies of american pride and military power at NFL games, but in the same breath getting upset when a handful of players silently protest during those ceremonies because "I don't want politcs mixed in with my sports"....

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

When do you encourage and support someone for actively trying to effect social change that they see as positive? What medium would you encourage them to use?

Just seems like the logic you are using only gets applied when people disagree with the Op-Ed message. E.G. all the dumbasses loving jingoistic displays and ceremonies of american pride and military power at NFL games, but in the same breath getting upset when a handful of players silently protest during those ceremonies because "I don't want politcs mixed in with my sports"....

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The medium they use is mostly irrelevant. All I'm saying is you can't just force the message. People are either going to respond or not. The NFL situation is actually pretty similar. The message is great, but for whatever reason, it ends up being dividing people. Ends up hurting the message.

For whatever reason, people aren't responding as well to her as others. Even if 100% the fault of her following, its not getting through. A change in tactics wouldn't do more damage.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

For whatever reason, people aren't responding as well to her as others. Even if 100% the fault of her following, its not getting through. A change in tactics wouldn't do more damage.

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Is that because the base she is reaching out to is not an echo chamber of her values? She operates in a bro-brah culture, and is calling out that very same culture for being so bro-brah. Pretty easy to get a positive response for climate change activism from the TAY fanbase than it would be from a Slednecker fanbase, you know what i mean?

What other people are folks in the outdoor sports world responding well to on this or similar issues?

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Originally Posted by mall walker

I cannot recall any other athlete's "credentials" being open for discussion even when they trigger or die in avalanches, which is the point about sexism... not that any of us is deliberately acting in order to belittle someone due to their gender / holds the conscious attitude that women are inferior, just that we implicitly take for granted that the male athlete is qualified, which we don't do with the female.

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But I can't think of a male athlete that consistently blogs about their credentials.

Just using the first example that springs to mind, if Jamie Pierre had blogged about how safe and smart he was in the mountains, I'm pretty sure people would've called bullshit.

I don't doubt cg's accomplishments. I'm 100% positive she's a better skier and mountaineer than me, and I'm entirely comfortable with that. But if she wants to instigate discussions around her credentials, then yeah... people are going to discuss them, and not all of it is going to be fawning praise. That doesn't mean the criticisms are justified, but it does mean that maybe she could learn something from the people (of both genders) that let the skiing do the talking.

But at the end of the day, there's no such thing as bad press. She's making a living, and I'm sure pushing the internet's buttons helps her sustain that. I, for one, would have no idea who she was if not for this thread.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

But I can't think of a male athlete that consistently blogs about their credentials.

Just using the first example that springs to mind, if Jamie Pierre had blogged about how safe and smart he was in the mountains, I'm pretty sure people would've called bullshit.

I don't doubt cg's accomplishments. I'm 100% positive she's a better skier and mountaineer than me, and I'm entirely comfortable with that. But if she wants to instigate discussions around her credentials, then yeah... people are going to discuss them, and not all of it is going to be fawning praise. That doesn't mean the criticisms are justified, but it does mean that maybe she could learn something from the people (of both genders) that let the skiing do the talking.

But at the end of the day, there's no such thing as bad press. She's making a living, and I'm sure pushing the internet's buttons helps her sustain that. I, for one, would have no idea who she was if not for this thread.

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Is she instigating the discussions around her credentials or responding to those trying to knock her down?

I don't follow her to know, so that's an honest question. But it seems that the issue of credentials is one to which she responds, not one that she brings up first.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Is she instigating the discussions around her credentials or responding to those trying to knock her down?

I don't follow her to know, so that's an honest question. But it seems that the issue of credentials is one to which she responds, not one that she brings up first.

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I guess I'm not totally sure (I don't follow her either, beyond occasionally popping into this thread). But it seems that she is taking a few localized, in person discussions that happened in utah and talking about them to a broader audience on the internet. So maybe she's not initially starting the discussion, but she's bringing it to a much, much larger group. And of course, she's foisting it upon a group that lacks all the context and background of the initial discussion, for better or worse.

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a sadly hilarious thread continues! go boys go!!

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idk. I follow her, and have met and chatted with her, (my wife, who does not warm easily to pro skiers, also likes her)... she’s pretty positive online and irl, I think.

the thread marches on

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

Americans have such a weird idea about guiding, as if anything done with a guide deserves an *. I just had this conversation with a guide friend of mine, about how different it is when he guides in Chamonix, where many of his clients have a similar skillset but still choose to go with a guide.

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I love being self sufficient but it doesn't make a lot of sense to waste a bunch of time trying to figure things out during a one week holiday in a new and unfamiliar location.

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Originally Posted by DBdude

this woman can not catch a break - what bull shit

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Meh. 'm sure she is a nice gal but this stinks of first world, rich, white girl problems. Cry me a fucking river.

Most people can't afford to "live the dream" and struggle just to get the bills paid....or much, much worse.

I'm pretty over the whole hero worship for pro skiers thing. I mean, it's practically impossible to get to the top of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs so you can spend all of your time climbing mountains without a fat nest to start off with.