Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

As a licensed and insured contractor, I'm usually a "get a permit & use a licensed contractor" guy. That said, I increasingly see the whole process getting less about protecting the homeowner from substandard work and more about a money grab and power play from the permitting authority.

I've got a stack of "business licences", "contractor licences" etc. in my office that amount to nothing more than a receipt for a tax I paid. I scanned Boulder's website and it seems like quite a bit of work to get their licence. I often autonomously out to the building department to ask if a permit is required and often get a "it would be nice" type of response instead of referencing me to some documentation listing the specific type of work as permitting required.

I may have missed it but what is the exact scope of work? In a lot of ways, the permit protects the contractor. While I've got a couple decades experience is this game and know the codes pretty well, ultimately it is up to the interpretation of the on the job inspector. If the inspector says "you must do XXX", then I can just say OK and bill the customer. The signed inspection card pretty much says I did it right.

Another thing, and this goes to all customers. What you want is "A certificate of insurance listing you (the homeowner) as insured and the property address on the certificate". You can also request either a copy of there workers comp or "Workers Comp Waiver".

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Foggy, as always, appreciate the thoughts/advice, the beer tally I owe you is growing. The scope of work is fully gut the kitchen, take out the wall separating kitchen and living room (thought to be non-load bearing but obviously that will be confirmed), and put in new kitchen (island, cabinets, flooring, etc), moving a few appliances and associated stuff (changing stove to gas, moving fridge, moving dishwasher) as well as can lighting in kitchen and living room, and do something with the pesky popcorn ceiling. The job also involves making one window smaller so that cabinets can run all the way to the wall.

Will also be doing 2 bathroom guts that back up to each other, including moving one wall and the plumbing associated, and moving one toilet. May use a different contractor for that job because we may not be able to afford this guy (contrary to what some here think, he's very reputable, he just isn't licensed in my city for the reasons you mention).

Holy shit, Danno. That's an extensive remodel. Sounds like $60k or more worth of work. You gonna move out during this process?

Yeah, it's a lot. We're trying to keep it to that number, not sure how successful we'll be. We won't be moving out for the kitchen, at least that's the current plan, figure that with working bathrooms and a makeshift kitchen (setting the fridge up somewhere, microwave, toaster oven, etc) we can manage. The bathrooms, well, we're hoping that the time that both bathrooms are down is minimized, but I don't see any way around that one, we will have to stay somewhere else for at least a week or two.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Foggy, as always, appreciate the thoughts/advice, the beer tally I owe you is growing. The scope of work is fully gut the kitchen, take out the wall separating kitchen and living room (thought to be non-load bearing but obviously that will be confirmed), and put in new kitchen (island, cabinets, flooring, etc), moving a few appliances and associated stuff (changing stove to gas, moving fridge, moving dishwasher) as well as can lighting in kitchen and living room, and do something with the pesky popcorn ceiling. The job also involves making one window smaller so that cabinets can run all the way to the wall.

Will also be doing 2 bathroom guts that back up to each other, including moving one wall and the plumbing associated, and moving one toilet. May use a different contractor for that job because we may not be able to afford this guy (contrary to what some here think, he's very reputable, he just isn't licensed in my city for the reasons you mention).

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Jesus, that's a hell of a lot more that you initially described. Oh, and those "pesky popcorn ceilings" may contain asbestos; need to get that checked out.

in my neck of the woods, using a thoughtful GC
gutting a full bath is >35k
gutting a kitchen is >80k
(+ jurisdictional fees & professional fees, if any)

obviously there are ways to save under those numbers but they typically involve cheap (not "modest", but downright cheap) materials and methods.
your area may vary hugely from that...just an n=1 fyi

Full kitchen plus TWO bathrooms for less than sixty and only out of the house for two weeks?

++++VIBES++++

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

Full kitchen plus TWO bathrooms for less than sixty and only out of the house for two weeks?

++++VIBES++++

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we will probably fail on all accounts. it's a dream.

I dunno, I recently got a bid for my kitchen at 40k and that was basically taking it to the studs and starting over (number didn't include appliances though). Then I just tacked a complete bathroom (not the master cuz that's looking more like 25k for us) remodel onto a larger project and it cost us 10k with a nice big frameless shower and a good bit of tile work. I know it varies a lot but 60k for the projects he's talking about is probably not a completely unrealistic number, though obviously on the low end of realistic.

I did kinda chuckle about the "week or two" part on the bathrooms, but if everything goes according to plan it's, at least, possible. Isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Danno

we will probably fail on all accounts. it's a dream.

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2 baths + a kitchen sounds like 3-4mos of work assuming lead times for various things are reasonably thought out

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

2 baths + a kitchen sounds like 3-4mos of work assuming lead times for various things are reasonably thought out

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I agree. But the 2 jobs will be done separately and we think we can live here during the kitchen remodel. And for some of the bathroom remodel, though how much is questionable.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I agree. But the 2 jobs will be done separately and we think we can live here during the kitchen remodel. And for some of the bathroom remodel, though how much is questionable.

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you can do it, but it won't be pleasant

I've done it too and it saved us thousands in rent that we could put towards better materials

temp kitchen with microwave, maybe plug-in single burner & use the grill outside
make sure you have access to a utility sink or large sink for cleanup
move fridge to a common space not in the way
&
you'll still eat out more than you want

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Another thing, and this goes to all customers. What you want is "A certificate of insurance listing you (the homeowner) as insured and the property address on the certificate". You can also request either a copy of there workers comp or "Workers Comp Waiver".

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^This. You NEED to have these documents in hand before any work is done.

I used to work as controller for a commercial mechanical contractor (licensed in 17 states), licensing processes vary wildly by locale. They are a HUGE pain in the ass. I can fully understand a contractor not wanting to comply with local licensing requirements for a few jobs. I would also not hire an unlicensed contractor. You are at the mercy of the inspector, in general the inspector does not like people coming in from out of the area doing work. Just my experience.

well, we're moving forward. we do intend to pull a permit, whether by us or have the contractor get licensed.

What the hell does "pull a permit" mean? Been doing this shit for fifteen years and never heard such lingo.
My advice: take out the wall. Your contractor is right, two feet of wall vs. six same shit. Hire fastfred for the popcorn ceiling. He may be uninsured and sketchy, but he'll take the pesky out of that popcorn. Just make sure you pay him. I wouldn't recommend stiffing that guy.
And what Rootskier said: Vibes.

Attachment 170451

Living in a construction site es no Bueno

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Originally Posted by twodogs

What the hell does "pull a permit" mean? Been doing this shit for fifteen years and never heard such lingo.
My advice: take out the wall. Your contractor is right, two feet of wall vs. six same shit. Hire fastfred for the popcorn ceiling. He may be uninsured and sketchy, but he'll take the pesky out of that popcorn. Just make sure you pay him. I wouldn't recommend stiffing that guy.
And what Rootskier said: Vibes.

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10 k and I'll scrape all the ceilings on the first floor, I'll take the wall out for free, if you want to live there while I'm working it's an extra 1k plus you'll be only able to live upstairs and you'll need to get in and out on a ladder for the week we're there, if it's got asbestos in it it'll cost you an extra 100 bucks and we'll put all the trash in your car and drive it out to the dads landfill out by the airport for proper disposal

post your email address so I can send you all my certificates of authenticity to guarantee that I know what I'm doing, best 10k you'll ever spend and if you want me to drywall and texture your ceiling it'll be another 5k (level 5 drywall certified bro) by the time I'm actually done with you, you might have enough money left to install a kitchen sink and thats about it

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Originally Posted by twodogs

What the hell does "pull a permit" mean? Been doing this shit for fifteen years and never heard such lingo.
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Weird. That's the lingo that everyone uses. I hear it over and over, that's why I used it.

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Originally Posted by Danno

well, we're moving forward. we do intend to pull a permit, whether by us or have the contractor get licensed.

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Good luck and godspeed, Danno! Be sure to keep us updated as things start to suck. Remodeling is not pleasant.

Some of you guys either have really expensive tastes in interior finishes or you are getting rolled. Off the top of my head, here are some estimates for a "high end kitchen"

Cabinets $10K
Level 4 Granite $5K
Flooring $3K
Tile Splash $2K
Appliances $5K
Plumbing Trim $3K

Were does the extra $50K go? Even @ $75/hr. bid rate $30K will get you 10 man weeks of labor. It's a fuckin' kitchen not the Taj Mahal.

If you want to spend $80K on a kitchen that's your business, I know it happens and plenty of people are happy at that price. Understand that price does not equal quality.

Maybe I'm underestimating the average dentist salary but I've been in plenty of ya'lls houses and I've yet to see one that justifies an $80K kitchen.

Vibes if you feel like you "need" a $2.5K Franke farmers sink.

Danno, cost control is all about your interior finish schedule. The problem you have right how is you probably don't have the ability to figure out "how much it costs" on your own. Tell the GC of your choice that you'll pay him for his time to develop a comprehensive estimate and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Some of you guys either have really expensive tastes in interior finishes or you are getting rolled. Off the top of my head, here are some estimates for a "high end kitchen"

Cabinets $10K
Level 4 Granite $5K
Flooring $3K
Tile Splash $2K
Appliances $5K
Plumbing Trim $3K

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HA! I wish! Much of that depends on where you live. Yes, in places like Texas where the granite is cheap and plentiful, as is the labor, sure. I'd maybe agree with you. As I've been remodeling in Montana though, I was in for quite the sticker shock. I've been quoted at nearly $20-30k for MID-level cabinets. Had to skip the nice beveled joints and go with cheaper woods and cheaper construction just to get it down to that. I thought it'd be like $20k for the HIGH end cabinets. Nope. I thought I'd have my kitchen remodeled by now, but when it was all said and done, I just haven't been able to swing it yet.

I've remodeled two condos and now ONE bathroom in my house and every time, I still can't get over the costs...and that's with me doing the vast majority of the work myself. Labor costs are retarded up here too, and generally for totally crap quality. I do miss having a plethora of skilled laborers on-hand. Always had plenty of friends who "had a cousin" who was a kick-ass tile layer and such. Hookups were abound. Labor was cheap. Materials were far less expensive. No such luck here. Then again, I think half the problem is that all the businesses in Bozeman have plenty of business so they have the attitude that they can charge whatever the hell they want to, and "Oh, you're in Big Sky? Well in that case the price is double."

So yeah, it all depends on where you live. I have a feeling Boulder's no better than here on that front. FML. :(

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Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

I think half the problem is that all the businesses in Bozeman have plenty of business so they have the attitude that they can charge whatever the hell they want to, and "Oh, you're in Big Sky? Well in that case the price is double."

So yeah, it all depends on where you live. I have a feeling Boulder's no better than here on that front. FML. :(

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Yep, same where I live for everything. "O you live in Coronado"? 30% you must have money surcharge.

I was recently quoted $12,000 CAD pesos for kitchen cabinets, but that was for small (100" x 70") L-shaped kitchen, cheapest option on everything, not including counters.

Austin, you seem like a smart, rational guy so I'm not gonna call BS on your numbers. Yes, there are regional differences. Yes, Big Sky is probably expensive. No, Boulder is not the same because it is 45mins. up the road from Brown Town.

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I've been quoted at nearly $20-30k for MID-level cabinets

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I have no idea what a beveled joint is. What do you consider mid-level? Full plywood box, dove-tail draws, full overlay, maple etc.?

Have you called

1
32.48 Miles
SIMKINS HALLIN LUMBER
326 BROADWAY
BOZEMAN, MT 59715
Phone: (406)586-2653

They are an AristroKraft dealer which I consider mid-grade. If they are marking them up an extra $5K over someone in Denver/Salt Lake etc., tell them to get fucked. Order your cabinets from somewhere else and profit.

Get all your materials on site, pay me $55/hr. plus a per diem and I'll be there in January to install.

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Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

So yeah, it all depends on where you live. I have a feeling Boulder's no better than here on that front. FML. :(

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We're definitely fearful of getting the "Boulder upcharge". One guy quoted us $130k for the kitchen and 2 bathrooms. A big local design-build firm (we knew they'd be expensive, only contacted them because a neighbor works for them) said they couldn't do the job for under $100k. Guys we've picked for the kitchen quoted us a range, we haven't hammered out the final details, of 40-46k. They do all of their own custom cabinetry. Probably going with someone even cheaper for the bathrooms.

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

30% you must have money surcharge.

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Haha. So true. Really pisses me off that it seems that most people I encounter in Bozeman don't seem to comprehend that Big Sky is NOT the Yellowstone Club, and that most year round residents are NOT rich. In fact, I live in about the most affordable area there, yet people sure seem to want to quote me like I'm freaking Bill Gates.

I've given up on using contractors for the most part after multiple absolutely absurd estimates. Since I've lived here, I've been forced to learn a LOT of new skills, which is a good thing in the end, but still annoyed on how businesses have treated me. You should see salespeople's eyes light up the moment they find out where I live. I keep having to remind that no, I am far from rich and would like to see some of their more "affordable" offerings (really mid-grade), at which point their attitudes visibly change and they can't get rid of me quick enough. Funny seeing them go from "I could care less about you or your business" to "HELL YEAH! LET'S DO THIS!" right back to "Get out of my store, you not-rich person" within the span of about 10 minutes.