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Pro Tour has the older Ultralon foam with basically the same formulation as the older liners but it's laid up and stitched differently. The newer 2.0 foam is a different formulation than the older Ultralon foam; different thermomoldable characteristics. I think Pro-Tour felt different because it had so many panels and because it used different thicknesses of foamQuote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Aw shucks, I shoulda waited then :(Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Well it depends. The Luxury liner is designed around a very neutral foot. So if you've got a foot that's average then it'll fit great. If you've got a weird foot then maybe you want the Intuition 2.0 equivalent liner (if you don't have access to a place that cooks the liner) or you want to use the Luxury liner (or maybe the wrap style liners if you want something stiffer) and then cook the liner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Jong-un
It gives you more choices and in particular is a choice for people who might not want to cook the liner or have access to a shop that they can trust to cook the liner correctly.
Also the older Intuition foam in your Luxury liner will, over time, mold to your feet. It'd be a function of the heat from your foot that'd make that happen. Intuition 2.0 foam just speeds up that process.
Is it buried in here somewhere the pros and cons of wrap vs tongue style? Have not really searched yet.
I have a couple days in on my Spirit 4's with the stock wrap liners. I've always skied a traditional tongue liner. The upper cuff just feels weird with the wrap. Thinking maybe getting some Tours would make it feel more like I am used to...or just ski a crap ton in the wraps and hope that becomes what feels normal.
Cool... thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
Another question: I bought Pro Tours for my Titans and I actually want to create more room for my foot rather than snug it up. I was getting cold feet in fairly mild temps due to circulation issues last year that once had to be dealt with by taking my footbeds right out of the boot (which worked). The liners are quite tight on my feet before baking and I'm going without a footbed as a result.
My question is, do you think I should mould them with a small shim in the liner to create a bit more space (which will not be in there during use), or just tighten the boots down to a fairly rediculous tension?
Wraps - better downhill performance. Take up more space. Not as good for touringQuote:
Originally Posted by shirk
Not surprised the wrap liner feels weird if you're not used to it. It does break in a bit but not much fyi
I'd do both actuallyQuote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Lee, chacked out that mag again today, they're calling this liner the HD RACE. Same as the 2.0 I presume?
Shirk, I'd like someone to correct me if I'm wrong but I look at the two styles like this:
- Both styles should behave the same around the foot
- Powerwrap takes up more space across the instep and lower leg
- Powerwrap stiffens the boot compared to a stock liner whereas the Luxury is the same as stock or slightly softer
- Luxury more comfortable on the shin? I sometimes wonder if the PW, even though its stiffer may disperse pressure along the shin better thus making IT the more comfortable one.
I overthink way too much which liners to try. I've fitted a pair of Luxuries at Intuition before for 98mm last plug boots and ended up returning them but most probably because I was too stubborn in refusing to use them without footbeds. Way too tight. I really think if you want to go with footbeds the only option is to go with the Scarpa ones or from the sounds of it this new HD. I still really want to give these a try as I'd love some warmer and better fitting liners.
WWMD - Fitting some Lange 130s so I have slightly more width (100mm vs. the usual punched 97-98), don't want to stiffen the boot any so would go tongue style, 10mm shell fit and will grind out toes but that will only add a little length(1-2mm?), will try without footbeds. Crystal at Intuition recomended going 28 med volume for a size 10.5-11 street shoe in a 27 shell but I'm afraid that the bigger liner would mean too much material getting squished in the short length shell. And I'm assuming a 27 liner could easily get stretched to allow for lots of toe room. Or should I just buy Marshal's 275 Mobe liners and fit footbeds and be done with it.
Rob - yeah you're overthinking it. Those Mobe liners are basically Luxury liners with a thinner sole for footbeds. Which is what you want. So buy them already or I'll kick your ass
I agree with your summary except that IMO the wrap liners take up more space. So if you've got whacked feet and want to take up more space then get the wrap liners. Randosteve in another thread also had a great description
OK I have a pair of HD Race liners which I use in the alpine boots. That's targeted much more for plug style alpine boots where the liners are thin or you want a super tight fit. They're not stiffer and they have the older Intuition 1.0 foam so theoretically they would need cooking to have the best fit possible EXCEPT I am one of those lucky people with a foot right about the average so I fit basically anything (that's why I can get into so many boots).
So those HD RACE boot liners are meant to have a super snug fit. I didn't notice any more heel retention. I did notice that I can put a footbed in because the sole of the liners are thinner. I also didn't notice any more or less temperature.
Never wrote this liner up for Wildsnow because it wasn't really targeted at touring boots. Intuition's liner lineup is starting to get confusingly big
EDIT _ found this[ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2753795&postcount=107"] older reference[/ame] where it was discussed and its basically correct
Because this is so good and concise here's Randosteve's summary about wrap vs tongue liners from this thread
tongue liner = better touring...less padding.
wrap liner = more padding...better skiing.
i'd go for the alpine. if you want even more beef...go powerwrap.
Anyone else have experience running luxury liners in radiums? I've battled with this set up the last several days and found that the rearward stiffness of the liner made touring very difficult; takes a ton of force to straighten my leg when striding forwards
I have Radiums and bought a Luxury Liner as I am not really that satified with the stock Garmont liner. The Garmont liner doesn't fit me all that bad and the performance is decent. I just didn't like the hassle of getting my foot in and out of the boots. I finally just pull my foot still in the liner out of the shell everytime I take the boots off. Anyway, I got a Luxury liner and fit is very snug and I can't use them with a footbed in them. I guess the biggest problem I have with them and it is a show stopper is that they are so stiff in the ankle, they demand a lot more energy climbing, just what I don't want. So, they are now sitting in my closet and I am using the stock liners. I am thinking of getting the pro tours as they look like they would not have that problem. That is what I wanted originally but when I called to order they talked me into the Luxury liner. The Luxury liner skis well on the decent for me, maybe a little better than the stock liner but I don't really need any extra power. I may put the Luxury liners in my Alpine boots as my stock alpine liners are thin and cold so I may gain a little extra warmth.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1thenaton1
ya same story here. Custom footbeds were unusable with the luxury liners and climbing feels like alpine boots.
Radiums + Pro Tours are great. Loving the set up as it solved the toe box issue. The heel pocket feels a bit loose, but I am going to try some C-pads.
Can anyone comment on the difference between the Alpine and Power Wrap liners (mostly concerned about the stiffness)?
They're out of my size in the Power Wraps and my current Nordica liners are so packed out that I need to do something about it ASAP. I want to pull the trigger on the Alpine liners if it isn't going to be a huge difference in performance.
These will be used in my downhill boots (Nordica Speedmachine) for resort skiing.
I've not skied the Alpine in the same boot as the PW to comment on the magnitude of stiffness but just handling them both the PW is stiffer. Another option if you want the stiffer liner and they're out, is to call a shop that sells Dalbello boots and get the gold ID liner made by Intuition--its a bit more $ but very well built. IMO, it is comparable to the PW in stiffness.Quote:
Originally Posted by JaytaeMoney
Hmmmm... I just did 5 days touring in Lux liners...
I have them in BD customs that are a very tight fit, they are mid volume (could have gone low) and after I molded them I took out the foot board in the boots to increase the volume I have to play with.
Touring in the lux was not bad* the liners are stiff but I found that they did not significantly impact my ability to tour, cause more fatigue, or impact my stride.
Even with low volume (my left foot is toes to the end tight) my feet were cooking once I loosened my top buckles to a reasonable tightness.
I found the biggest difficulties with new liners is finding the appropriate buckle tension after having the setup dialed with the old liners.
I'd give the liners a few days to feel them out and get the fit right.
* pulling the foot board lowered my foot in the boot and resulted in heel pressure on my ankle bones (4 Spots) that I managed to fix, or at least reduce the impact by "re baking" the ankle area using a waterbottle full of hot water.
Lee - quick question.
Replacing my much loved and comfy Scarpa branded intuition liners used in various Garmont boots.
Have got a pair of the "performance wrap" liners from Level9. These seem thicker than I remember the Scarpas. Are they designed to be used without a foot bed?
I have skied the Alpine (grey liner, no sewn-on black patches of harder material) and Power Wrap (grey liner with a lot of black reinforcing patches of harder material) in the same alpine boot. The Power Wrap is a lot stiffer. That black material adds a lot of stiffness to the boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Jong-un
Intuition says you don't need a footbed if you don't want to. You could mould them without foot beds, then if they eventually pack out and create too much room, add a footbed later.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Sorry R - I don't know those ones. Usually the liners customized for footbed use have thinner solesQuote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
...because they aren't really for TGR folks...from the Level9 site:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
"Note: These are not the high performance liners that most hard core skiers are using. The liners we are selling have a cushioned feel, which is best described as a 'comfort fit.' These will offer better performance than most standard liners, but are not the super-stiff ones that hard core skiers and TGR-types are sporting."
:)
Yes I know.
Not looking for super stiff or hard core, because I'm replacing the not super stiff or hard core but just worn out scarpa branded intuition liners that worked just great and that I molded with a footbed.
Afaik,the scarpa Intuition Precision High AND Scarpa Intuition Speed are "supposed" to be used without footbeds,unless you really want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
From telemark pyrenees :I have the speeds without footbed and have been more than happy with them.Quote:
In fact, the super-supportive foam acts as an integrated custom foot bed without the need for insoles, though aftermarket footbeds can easily be used if desired.
Plenty of support.
But I would guess that you could slip a thin footbed in,especially into a larger volume boot.
Any other views as to the no insole route.
I just use and am happy with the green superfeet. Do you miss the more rigid (less squishy?) feel without them. Can see the advantages in respectt of easier drying less tearing up of lining by pulling the out to dry and getting a better mold.
Ta.