Will someone please give me a logical explination

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Originally Posted by Summit

Finland, being large for a European country, is roughly the size of the US state of New Mexico, or roughly 1/30th the size of the US.

Now, Finland may have a lower per capita consumption. Yes, Finland has lower overall density but most of population lives in the south. I don't know if you guys have an awesome transit system or if you have the same problems of suburban sprawl we have. I do know that Norway is part of the European market and so you guys tend to buy smaller European efficient cars. That would be the biggest reason why your consumption is lower.

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While it is mostly true what yo say about Finland, it ain't true about Norway, which has it's population pretty evenly spaced.

If we were to "move" each finnish citizen to the populated south (let's say that we neglect 2/3's of Finlands land and move everyone in the populated southern 1/3), the average population densite would be around 120 per sq mile. Which would be a tad less than the population density of South Carolina. Still, there the average consumption was 578 gallons, yet the Finnish consumption is the same, ~120 gallons.

By area, 1/3 of Finlands land is ~43.500 sq miles, which would be about the same as for Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...states_by_area). Still, again consumption of VA is ~527 gallons. And population density for VA is 178.8 persons per sq mile...

And the cut of 2/3's of Finlands area is too drastic.

Sin short, in VA they use about 5 times as much fuel, have about the same area is the "imagined Finland", and still have a higher population density. Care to explain these small facts :rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by Gunder

Entitlement? Fuck off.

I towed for most of the season with a chevy blazer. The only reason that I am still not, is that the engine literally caught fire. Second you have no fucking clue what the access roads are like out here. There is no way a station wagon will make it. Hell my blazer almost didnt. Plus unless you plan on buying a 1000cc 4 stroke, you are not going to make it much farther than the end of the road. And a station wagon towing sleds is actually going to get a lot less gas mileage than a truck towing the same sleds. Hince, I now get way better mileage with the truck than the blazer.

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Are you dumb, ignorant or both? You've chosen to be a photographer and unless I'm way off I'm pretty sure no one to ride a sled to get to the zones. Strap on a pair of skins, and take quality instead of quantity. Otherwise quit whining. Capitalism is what has made you successful and it's what is driving the prices of fuel through the roof. You can't enjoy one and say the other one is wrong. If you don't like the free market join the communist party and fight for the nationalization of all industries.

I have friends that tow sleds up the forestry roads in BC using everything from two wheel drive Ford Focus's to Jetta Wagons to Subaru outbacks. None of them complain that the cars won't make it, and all of them are much happier for the fuel their saving.

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Originally Posted by hemas

Care to explain:rolleyes:.

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What's more difficult?
Building mass transportation infrastructure for your little country, or for the USA? Don't compare your entire country to one of our FIFTY states.

Get it now?

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Originally Posted by Summit

With everything spread out, what do you do when you get off the train?

PS I wish we had high speed trains. I'd definitely ride them... but I'd be limited in where I would because of the need to go places once off. It would work better on the coasts than in the heartland.

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use the cities public transportation, which at the moment is sorely lacking or inefficient or not worth the trouble in most cities. high speed rail is great for connecting major urban centers, beyond that you're going to need a car..

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Originally Posted by Summit

There is a reason the US buys big gas guzzling SUBs and the Euro's buy tiny little efficient cars.:
US = low gas prices, big open roads, spread out population (suburban sprawl and the open west)
Europe = high gas prices, skinny little road made for wagon carts, countries smaller than US states and counties
Higher gas prices may change our average mpg.

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sorry i should have be more clear, there's absolutely no reason why we CAN'T all be driving the same cars as they do in europe and enjoying an average 40mpg vs 20mpg. the reason we don't is because gas has been cheap, hybrids really only exist here because of people concerned with pollution and climate change. that will all change once the almighty dollar becomes a bigger factor.. unfotunately it'll be a while before the average american realizes that they should be complaining about fuel efficiency not gasoline prices.

Lithium battery on an electric hub motor on a bike. Cost is about $1500 USD.

Range is 40+ miles, top speed of 30-40mph, recharge time is two hours. Pedal assist greatly improves duration.

No special bike needed. Just take your front wheel off and put the motor hub on. Now your bike commute doesn't suck so much.

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Originally Posted by Liberal Genius

What's more difficult?
Building mass transportation infrastructure for your little country, or for the USA? Don't compare your entire country to one of our FIFTY states.

Get it now?

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Hey, I only picked the state to have about the same figures. What I can't really grasp is that is a minute country in the artic and being bullied by CSSR/Russia can get by on roughly the 5th of gas per person than say in VA. And then again there is DC, with about 9000 and them some persons per square mile. Yet they still use just shy of twice as much gas as Finland does per capita. And DC is a hell of a lot smaller than Finland is. So building a working public transport in DC should be piss easy, roight?

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Originally Posted by hemas

Mebbe you should really look into it more thoroughly, see my earlier reply to Summit.

Eg. Sweden has ~52 persons per square mile, and Norway 31. France is at a bit shy of 300, but then again that is still about the same as in Florida.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France

Yet in France they annual gas consumption per capita is a bit shy of 70 gallons, where as in Florida it is around 496 gallons. (sources in earlier post)... I could go on about it, but simply population density just isn't the main cause.

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Yea... and have you seen how many 3/4 ton trucks there are in northern Sweden-Norway? Quite a few...

and while Florida might have a population density places out west are much lower.
Montana- 2.39/km
Wyoming- 1.96/km
New Mexico- 14.98/sq mi
Idaho- 15.64/sq MI

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Just take your front wheel off and put the motor hub on. Now your bike commute doesn't suck so much.

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But now your really gay:D:D:D


I pass those once and a while on my non gay bike. So I don't think they go as fast as you state. And bike commutes only suck in heavy cold rain , when really cold or when + 2 inches of snow. Having a gay bike doesn't help you then.:yourock::yourock:

:FIREdevil

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Originally Posted by Gripen

and while Florida might have a population density places out west are much lower.
Montana- 2.39/km
Wyoming- 1.96/km
New Mexico- 14.98/sq mi
Idaho- 15.64/sq MI

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Don't you mean in the middle. CA - 217/sq mi, WA - 89/sq mi, OR ... OK, you got me there at ~35/sq ml.

And yes, I been numerous times in northern SWE/NOR... And yes, seen a few 3/4 trucks. But more often have I seen 4Motion VW Passats and on average of 4 trucks, 3 have been a Hilux.

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Originally Posted by DougW

But now your really gay:D:D:D


I pass those once and a while on my non gay bike. So I don't think they go as fast as you state. And bike commutes only suck in heavy cold rain , when really cold or when + 2 inches of snow. Having a gay bike doesn't help you then.:yourock::yourock:

:FIREdevil

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I'm not a gay person yet........but after working 12 hours and getting off work at 2am, riding a bike home sucks. I'm not gay, but I AM A PUSSY.

I don't need my car to get to work. I can ride Trax.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Lithium battery on an electric hub motor on a bike. Cost is about $1500 USD.

Range is 40+ miles, top speed of 30-40mph, recharge time is two hours. Pedal assist greatly improves duration.

No special bike needed. Just take your front wheel off and put the motor hub on. Now your bike commute doesn't suck so much.

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http://www.electrikmotion.com/m-750_..._wavecrest.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pow4Brains

You're wrong. Most of Eruoland would fit in Nebraska alone. I am all about high speed bullet trains running down the center of our interstate system for people AND freight and masstransit in urban areas, but we just don't have the same population density.

Edit - 4: Summit beat me to it.

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Europe inside Nebraska, hmm ok.

Bush's plan:
MPG CAFE standard by 2015 31.6mpg.
35mpg by 2020 (combined city & highway).

Europe 2012 CAFE: 47mpg
China: 2008 CAFE: 43mpg
Japan: 37 mpg
Australia: 34.4 2010 CAFE

We can currently handle $3.50 with 20mpg combined, why not $7 gal @ 32-35 10 yrs out? I'm an eternal optimist when it comes to American ingenuity/engineering when properly applied...we'll figure a way to make it work.

Not aware of the large amount of mid-size vehicles in Europe getting 40-45mpg? Hell, a large Audi A6 wagon TDI gets 43mpg highway. The vast majority of Western Europeans commute to work in their own vehicles...England if I recall is in the 80+% ball-park. Ave Europe commute time 38minutes (less mileage, more stop & go, obviously more use of public transportation) compared to 24.4min in US. How do non-dense populations in Scandinavia do it? Northwestern Europe is certainly set-up at a distinct advantage due to density, but starts to fall apart further you move South, East and North.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

I'm not a gay person yet........but after working 12 hours and getting off work at 2am, riding a bike home sucks. I'm not gay, but I AM A PUSSY.

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Sorry couldn't resist. I can see assist if job is tiring. I have a longer bike commute than most so when I see elec hubs or little gas engines on bikes it makes me laugh. I never get off work at 2 am. However if I am riding bike at 2am I am probably drunk so my 20km ride will sober me up.

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Originally Posted by Liberal Genius

I'm really enjoying your rant. Your anger towards Americans being so much more successful than you shines through with every pathetic post you type.
Yes, we're humans. More successful humans consume more. That's how it works. Gotta love it when the losers like you get jealous though, and whine about the winners.

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yes you are correct. i am very angry at you, not you as a person but you as a nation and the nation you are representing as a person which happens to be the US of A is a nation i am extremely jeaulous of not as a person but as a german. and since i'm so busy being german all the time, as i see you know very well what i speak off :D , i sometimes loose myself and forget who i am as a person. so if i hate on you, please don't take it personally i'm just doing it in the name of my nation. if we only knew each other in person i know we would totally love each other and be making out all the time.. :)

on the upside i still have about 80-90% of the world's population to look down on, you know - me as a nation. well right now i'm working on becoming swiss. so eventually it'll be 100% i can look down on, but till then i believe i have to disappoint you and reject your advances.

but back to the 80-90% i'm looking down to. so whenever i'm at the trainstation, all my gear packed, it is really early in the morning and cold while i'm waiting for my train to the ski station, i think by myself: if only those fucking pacific asians if only we could let just every sixth of them get a child instead of each one of them then i wouldn't be standing out here in the cold but driving my car to the ski station. who the fuck do those asians think they are anyways? burning my gasoline.. :mad: :mad:

so you see, our lines of thinking aren't even that far apart. so if i were you i wouldn't give up just yet.

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Originally Posted by powslut

Are you dumb, ignorant or both? You've chosen to be a photographer and unless I'm way off I'm pretty sure no one to ride a sled to get to the zones. Strap on a pair of skins, and take quality instead of quantity. Otherwise quit whining. Capitalism is what has made you successful and it's what is driving the prices of fuel through the roof. You can't enjoy one and say the other one is wrong. If you don't like the free market join the communist party and fight for the nationalization of all industries.

I have friends that tow sleds up the forestry roads in BC using everything from two wheel drive Ford Focus's to Jetta Wagons to Subaru outbacks. None of them complain that the cars won't make it, and all of them are much happier for the fuel their saving.

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The only one here that is dumb, ignorant or both is you.

I have probably spent more days touring last season than you have in the last decade, but even touring as much as I do, you just cant feasibly access the zones out here that are required for filming with out a sled. Bottom line. Trust me, I would not have purchased a sled if I didnt have too.

Second, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between BC forrest roads and the forest roads in WA. Unlike WA, BC actually maintains there roads, and in many times you do not even have to leave pavement to access the the sled areas. Washington is DIFFERENT. The only forest roads maintained down here are the ones being actively logged and once you pass the logging area there is nothing done to the road. In fact the sled access road down here is now mandatory 4wd and unless you have at a minimum a light truck you will not have the ground clearance to make it over the washouts.

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Originally Posted by greg

who do those fuckin asians think they are anyways?

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You guys doing renovations on Auschwitz? Don't make us come over there and bitch slap you again. :redface:

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Originally Posted by Gunder

The only one here that is dumb, ignorant or both is you.

I have probably spent more days touring last season than you have in the last decade, but even touring as much as I do, you just cant feasibly access the zones out here that are required for filming with out a sled. Bottom line. Trust me, I would not have purchased a sled if I didnt have too.

Second, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between BC forrest roads and the forest roads in WA. Unlike WA, BC actually maintains there roads, and in many times you do not even have to leave pavement to access the the sled areas. Washington is DIFFERENT. The only forest roads maintained down here are the ones being actively logged and once you pass the logging area there is nothing done to the road. In fact the sled access road down here is now mandatory 4wd and unless you have at a minimum a light truck you will not have the ground clearance to make it over the washouts.

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Seriously dude, you don't have to explain your right to live however the fuck you want. Welcome to capitalism, bitches. :fuckyou:

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Originally Posted by Liberal Genius

Seriously dude, you don't have to explain your right to live however the fuck you want. Welcome to capitalism, bitches. :fuckyou:

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No he doesn't. But also according to capitalism, he can't complain about them gas prices, either...

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Originally Posted by CherryMoon

Not aware of the large amount of mid-size vehicles in Europe getting 40-45mpg? Hell, a large Audi A6 wagon.

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Audi A6 is not a mid sized car in Europe.

It has something to do with the metric system and Americans needing all the extra space to haul around all their misconceptions.

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Originally Posted by hemas

No he doesn't. But also according to capitalism, he can't complain about them gas prices, either...

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We can complain about anything. :)

The problem isn't Gunder and his sled, it's the millions on Indians and Chinese.

FYI - Hemas is in large part correct a 4wd ford transit or similar would probably work fine for the gundertron with the provision that he would have to go to a sled trailer instead of a deck. There's probably about 70% of US pickup drivers that would be excellently (actually better) served by such a vehicle.

http://home.comcast.net/~anthoni6/sprinter_iglhaut.jpg

^A built one^

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Originally Posted by Gunder

The only one here that is dumb, ignorant or both is you.

I have probably spent more days touring last season than you have in the last decade, but even touring as much as I do, you just cant feasibly access the zones out here that are required for filming with out a sled. Bottom line. Trust me, I would not have purchased a sled if I didnt have too.

Second, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between BC forrest roads and the forest roads in WA. Unlike WA, BC actually maintains there roads, and in many times you do not even have to leave pavement to access the the sled areas. Washington is DIFFERENT. The only forest roads maintained down here are the ones being actively logged and once you pass the logging area there is nothing done to the road. In fact the sled access road down here is now mandatory 4wd and unless you have at a minimum a light truck you will not have the ground clearance to make it over the washouts.

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I will reiterate. Your lifestyle, your choice, your problem.

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Originally Posted by hemas

Care to explain these small facts :rolleyes:.

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Yea... it's either because we pour gas into the sewers to show how cool we are, your statistics include other sources for fuel use... or it might just be what I already said:

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Originally Posted by Summit

I do know that Norway is part of the European market and so you guys tend to buy smaller European efficient cars. That would be the biggest reason why your consumption is lower.

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And the European market's general preferences are determined by what I mentioned earlier: high gas prices, small streets, and short driving distances. Norweigians drive little fuel efficient vehicles.

Also, an additional noteworthy difference between the US and Europe is Europe is full of highly efficiency turbo-diesels which are for some reason verbotten in the US (emission standards I think).

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Originally Posted by grapedrink

hybrids really only exist here because of people concerned with pollution and climate change. that will all change once the almighty dollar becomes a bigger factor.. unfotunately it'll be a while before the average american realizes that they should be complaining about fuel efficiency not gasoline prices.

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gas prices have kept hybrids from being economical to purchase... but higher gas prices will make them economical, sales will increase, and then vehicle prices will decrease further. Hopefully in 10 years, most vehicles will be hybrids unless we go to another propulsion system.

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Originally Posted by powslut

Are you dumb, ignorant or both? You've chosen to be a photographer and unless I'm way off I'm pretty sure no one to ride a sled to get to the zones. Strap on a pair of skins, and take quality instead of quantity. Otherwise quit whining.

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Are you dumb, ignorant or both?

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Originally Posted by Hohes

Its kind of odd how out of touch some people are.

Speculative activity along with good old fashioned Demand for oil > supply for oil. Gas comes from oil. Price of gas has risen.

For fucks sake, this has been predicted for years. And rest assured, this is only the beginning.

Why do people seem so surprised?

Real quality of life wont fall that much because there is so much surplus fat in society that can be removed from daily life. Problem is, lots of people make their mortgage payments by selling you this fat.

Society has been way in excess of sustainable consumption of junk and fat for a long time. Now, driven by fuel costs, equilibrium and normalcy will return. Many people wont like that that means.

And guess what, its rising on other countries as well you know. So are food prices.

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Well said. The thread probably should have ended after Hohes' post.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

FYI - Hemas is in large part correct a 4wd ford transit or similar would work fine for the gundertron with the provision that he would have to go to a sled trailer instead of a deck. There's probably about 70% of US pickup drivers that would be excellently (actually better) served by such a vehicle.

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He could most likely just drive the sled inside the van, quite a few such dealios in northern Scandiland. So no need for a trailer.