WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

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02-04-2021, 10:24 PM
zion zig zag

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutah

I miss Alecs Barton. We still talk about him especially this time of year when the anniversary of his death and birthday come around. But he ignored the signs and his friends that told him not to ski argenta or little giant that day (myself included) He was arrogant and young and he paid a huge price for that arrogance. And it really sucks. The absoluteness of death fucking sucks.

Good post brutah. ^^^As far as Alecs goes, I haven’t skied the west side of Kessler since that happened, and it used to be a go to for me. I don’t know why, he wasn’t a friend of mine or anything. And it’s not like I avoid every slope that’s had an accident. Something about reading the report and it all sounding so familiar, like my get out of jail free cards were up for that slope or something.
02-04-2021, 10:55 PM
altacoup

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boissal

^^
Very true. The overall rating (moderate/high/whatever) has to due with the likelihood of slides. If you don't contextualize it with predictability & level on consequence you're in for a rough awakening.

I spend a fair amount of time skiing on considerable days when the main concerns are wind slabs and storm snow. I tend to regard those are predictable and manageable (within reason). By that I mean that you can (usually) tell where wind slabs tend to form based on wind patterns, they're (often) visible, you can (usually) approach them safely from above and trigger them on command via stomping at the top/edge, ski cuts, etc... Same goes for storm snow which, absent any risk of stepping down into older layers, tends so sluff/slide on the old snow below once the angle is sufficient. Again, none of this is absolute and a small wind pocket can fuck up your day even if you think you think have a perfect read on how it's going to behave. In general though a bad call under these circumstances doesn't carry an horribly severe penalty.

If we're talking considerable danger in the context of a PWL though, all bets are off. There are no tools to manage deep slabs other than leaving them be. They're too stealth, too patient, and too mean. All the tricks I've learned for dealing with wind slabs and new snow are useless at best and create a false sense of confidence at worst. I want to think I'm smarter than a wind slab but I know with 100% certainty that I'm dumber than a deep slab. And I also know that if ones takes a shot a me it will do so with extreme prejudice and I'm not likely to walk away. So, in my book, a moderate day with a PWL is significantly more problematic a considerable or even high day with wind/new snow problems.

The big issue in the Wasatch, and I think part of the reason we're seeing what we're seeing this season, is that we spend most of our seasons putzing around in a really user-friendly snowpack. It usually gives us good feedback, it's very clear with its warnings, and it requires a lot of provoking to react. We're so used to this that when we have to deal with a snowpack that isn't deeply sedated and responds to the slightest provocation shit hits the fan constantly. It won't stop until the WL is gone or bridged, or until everyone readjusts their perception based on reality vs historical data.

This post summarizes almost perfectly my thoughts on mitigating avalanche danger. I have 2 steadfast rules that I won’t break. I refuse to fuck with persistent weak layers. They will eventually go away. TFW is as experienced as it gets and he’d be the first to tell you he can’t forecast when that layer will slide. His road to Provo example is a prefect illustration of the forecasting difficulty. It’s Russian roulette. Rule number 2 is I don’t ski with people who refuse to listen to the voice of caution. I have good friends that I would never ski tour with, unless conditions were %100, as I ally only spring corn snow. If you think you can out think a PWL you’re wrong unless your answer is to not play with it. Love skiing pow as much as the next guy, but goal number one is to stay alive to ski more pow. Stay safe have fun.

Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums
02-04-2021, 10:58 PM
tBatt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boissal

^^
Very true. The overall rating (moderate/high/whatever) has to due with the likelihood of slides. If you don't contextualize it with predictability & level on consequence you're in for a rough awakening.

I spend a fair amount of time skiing on considerable days when the main concerns are wind slabs and storm snow. I tend to regard those are predictable and manageable (within reason). By that I mean that you can (usually) tell where wind slabs tend to form based on wind patterns, they're (often) visible, you can (usually) approach them safely from above and trigger them on command via stomping at the top/edge, ski cuts, etc... Same goes for storm snow which, absent any risk of stepping down into older layers, tends so sluff/slide on the old snow below once the angle is sufficient. Again, none of this is absolute and a small wind pocket can fuck up your day even if you think you think have a perfect read on how it's going to behave. In general though a bad call under these circumstances doesn't carry an horribly severe penalty.

If we're talking considerable danger in the context of a PWL though, all bets are off. There are no tools to manage deep slabs other than leaving them be. They're too stealth, too patient, and too mean. All the tricks I've learned for dealing with wind slabs and new snow are useless at best and create a false sense of confidence at worst. I want to think I'm smarter than a wind slab but I know with 100% certainty that I'm dumber than a deep slab. And I also know that if ones takes a shot a me it will do so with extreme prejudice and I'm not likely to walk away. So, in my book, a moderate day with a PWL is significantly more problematic a considerable or even high day with wind/new snow problems.

The big issue in the Wasatch, and I think part of the reason we're seeing what we're seeing this season, is that we spend most of our seasons putzing around in a really user-friendly snowpack. It usually gives us good feedback, it's very clear with its warnings, and it requires a lot of provoking to react. We're so used to this that when we have to deal with a snowpack that isn't deeply sedated and responds to the slightest provocation shit hits the fan constantly. It won't stop until the WL is gone or bridged, or until everyone readjusts their perception based on reality vs historical data.

This might be the most wisdom I’ve read in a single post. I wish I could read, re read, make all my friends read and re-read until they can recite before going anywhere but Emma’s right now.
02-04-2021, 11:01 PM
Benneke10

How about instead of closing the 9990 gate they just put up a sign with Boissal's post on it
02-05-2021, 12:10 AM
Boissal

Woah there, nobody's ever accused me of wisdom, let's not start today. I'm graying at the roots enough as it is!

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutah

Its a shitty club to be in and I haven't mentioned it publicly before now. (I did report it anonymously to UAC) [...] I don't really like talking about my mistakes so kudos to D-Roc for owning his so quickly and I hope your surgery goes well and you come back stronger than ever.

It is a shitty club for sure. I had an incident a couple years ago that I don't think would have been survivable if I had been 5' lower on the slope and reporting it took a significant effort.

Considerable day, absolutely nuking, running laps on the Mower in all-time conditions. The skinner kept disappearing because of wind transport, shit was cracking everywhere, my partner and I kicked off a bunch of small pockets that behaved exactly as expected. We thought we had it all figured out and could manage as long as we didn't get on the wrong aspect. Wind slabs and storm snow right? What could possibly go wrong... I suggested a Kessler Slab exit to wrap up the day. I ski a sneaky variation of that thing frequently, it's significantly less sketch than the main slab. The only issue is the entrance which is a steep and narrow tube that tends to collect wind deposits. I figured I'd ski cut it hard and fast into a stand of mature pines, it would flush the whole thing, we'd be kings of Kessler for one more run. Expect I was tired, overly excited, and forgot about the aspect thing I had been clinging to all day. I bungled the ski cut - not enough speed and angle, much deeper snow than I thought - and ended up nearly stopped in the gut. I looked up to see ripples where there shouldn't have been any, got moved about 15' down, and managed to stomp through the bed surface right as the snow started to push me off balance and into a sitting position. Turns out the very predictable wind slab that was for sure going to break right at my feet decided to release 50' above me. So much for predictability... The small pocket triggered a much wider slab as it exited the chute, ran almost 1000', over a cliff, and through nasty ass trees.

I was fine when it happened but the lower I got on the slope the worse I felt. It was clearly not just a wind pocket. When I got to the debris pile I felt like puking. When I got home and gathered info for the obs I realized I was less than 50' from the spot Craig Patterson was caught and killed in 2013. Shit. I stared at my write-up on the UAC's website for a long time before deciding to use my real name. I was angry and ashamed but eventually realized that posting under my name might lead to a bunch of "WTF were you thinking" texts and calls from friends. I welcomed those, they were more nuanced than I deserved but the message was loud and clear. Don't be a dumb shit, quit pushing it thinking you know best, and live to ski another day. Telling Ms Boissal when she got home from work was even worse. Married less than a year with big plans... I think something got in my eye during that conversation. I exchanged a bunch of emails with former UAC guru Evelyn who talked me out of my spiral of double-guessing every decision I had made in the past decade of touring. The shame and fear lingered the rest of the season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutah

Something a good buddy of mine says when we bail on something that always sticks with me is that the mountains aren't going anywhere.

That's the only way to become an old ski-tourer. My main partner these days is scared all the time. So am I which is why we get along so well. We have lofty objectives but we bail more often than not. We get to the car, drink a beer, talk about how awesome the turns we got to make were, and plan for the re-match. If it ever happens.
02-05-2021, 12:20 AM
D-Roc

Quote:

Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

D-roc here comes a year of rehab. And fathering. Happy for ya. This story is for you.

I have no picture stoke 'cept old slides, but Brutahs been asking for stories.
Lemme know if I should continue...

20? years ago or so when I was forecasting at the bird I took the two trail crew from that year to run the High Little Cloud route. They'd been shoveling for 7-8 hours and I figured they'd earned it. (Caught shit from the Mongo after.)
Out above the Rd to Provo I handed one of them a shot.
His first.
"Ever made and avalanche?"
"No."
"Well you might make one here."
The slope released, 4'x100%. Cool.
It hits the slope below the road which fails.
To the south the fx runs to Mark Malu, and we watch the fx run north.
4-5' x 1000', no stauchwall
I'm mentally yelling "STOP STOP STOP" as it reaches and passes the Little Cloud sign line into Regulator which was open and trafficked.
The crack went into Regulator, but all the avalanching was on the Little Cloud side.
With cresting adrenaline I turned my attention back to an unusual sight, a Class 4 slide.
The avalanche gained speed, got funneled by the narrows at Dr. Hip and accelerated across the flats under the bench.
As it tore down the forest below and turned toward the base of the Little Cloud lift once I'm now again mentally yelling "STOP STOP STOP!"
People on the lift are yelling to those in line "Run for your lives!"
It stopped. Adrenaline crested.
Helluva first shot for that trail crew guy, eh?
The other fella threw the next shot which took our the next slope above the road.
Good slide, but nothing left below the road.
Mongo calls "Cease, desist."
My response was to "strike while the iron is hot".
I acquiesced but still got into trouble which wasn't hard
We put snowcats on that road, and I wanted to eliminate slopes that would sweep them off the road when they slid.
On our patrol ball caps that year they had embroidered "Strike while the iron's hot" on mine.

Thank you. Look forward to our next chat.

Great story.
02-05-2021, 06:25 AM
skifishbum

Quote:

Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

As an aside, props to Whyturn for going above and beyond yesterday at PowMow. Much appreciated. Also, props to Dibbs for his internal radar and ski finding abilities

homies solid like that i owe him fer showin me the pows mows goods that aint obvious
and somebody else found his bros ski as it was stickin up vertically
and we were trying to find sumthin else that took us another run to do
i just tooks the time to git er closer to its person
pleasure skiing you and the U
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
hard not to be stoked on limited ticket sales and empty weekend chairs
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
paradise's a bit rocky yet
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
but skied great in spots
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
props to their patrol for kickin ass to open more terrain safely hopefully we git to go visit james at some point
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
really wanted to ski cobabe
Named fer Dr Alvin who at age 45 in 1956 sold his excavating and livestock companys to become a dr and was the oldest person to graduate from the UoU med school at the time
before starting the pow mow in 72
but it was closed
went back yesterday
fkna cold
back before the turn of the century pow mow was the soli crews git away
with a note from the resort or paystub youd git a day pass and change back from a jackson
and we mostly just skied pow country laps and left woody with snickers fer the shuttles
woody died a few years ago in a white water accident rip
so going to ski woodys world was a given
elevation ,aspect, melt freeze and winds
took its toll on that terrain and its scratch n sniff meh
shuttle bus wasnt bad and everyone their is workin the mask compliance thing well
still a risk tolerance thing though
made it over to cobabe and softer skiing
skinned out to raintree and some par 5
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
guess i shouda strapped on the 9 ??????
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
skiing didnt suck
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
alec was a good kid
I try to ski a lil giant west face every year for him
and for those who
put the do
in the this is what we
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
other than that i have to much time in the shop vrs the skin track this season
so heres some shop god crew stoke
https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...080&fit=bounds
and well
"it is what it is"
https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...res/ss0210.jpg
maybe 3hundo is gonna be a stretch
02-05-2021, 07:00 AM
alev

These stories and these words from you all keep the stoke up for me. Love the fun stories TFW - keep them coming. Hearing the harder messages, the sobering moments, from you experienced guys - those are even more important. Thanks all.
02-05-2021, 07:55 AM
mall walker

great few pages here.
02-05-2021, 07:57 AM
zion zig zag

Boissal, thanks for the words, good stuff.

TFW, serious question: did we have cocktails (complete with ice!) together at Deep Lake in the Winds several years ago? It was someone high in the food chain snow safety wise from Alta/Bird. My memory is terrible and I don't remember the name.
02-05-2021, 09:23 AM
frosted flakes

Thanks for sharing both the funny and serious stories, good reading. Good luck with the recovery d-roc
02-05-2021, 10:15 AM
Sol Skier

Really appreciate you all sharing these stories.
Describing the distinction between PWL's and other types of avy concerns is helpful.
I hope some snow comes your way soon.
02-05-2021, 10:45 AM
oldskibum

Will we hear the TFW story of his close one in Hoop's crotch?
02-05-2021, 11:01 AM
mc_roon

Quote:

Originally Posted by mall walker

great few pages here.

Seriously. Really nice to see so many sharing their personal experiences and close calls to break down the expert halo that often pervades these types of threads. If all people ever see or read about is deep snow and steep lines, they miss the entire decision making process that goes into making the right decision to do it safely. This is a good season to remind ourselves early & often that sometimes the mountains just say fuck off, and we need to listen when they do.
02-05-2021, 12:28 PM
criscam

+++ whatever for Boissal, brutah and the other great posts recently. better then i woulda thought out there this morning. imagine we can get back to some meadow skipping stoke after this next storm rolls through.
02-05-2021, 01:01 PM
Boissal

Quote:

Originally Posted by criscam

imagine we can get back to some meadow skipping stoke after this next storm rolls through.

Do it. As annoying as it is to see pics of people rolling around in pow while I sit in my office with my shitty knee it's usually the best thing that happens during the day!
I hate all y'all real bad for it but I also hope you get to ski lots of fun shit while staying safe!
02-05-2021, 01:16 PM
zion zig zag

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boissal

Do it. As annoying as it is to see pics of people rolling around in pow while I sit in my office with my shitty knee it's usually the best thing that happens during the day!
I hate all y'all real bad for it but I also hope you get to ski lots of fun shit while staying safe!

You asked for it. This is criscam from tomorrow morning. Or last week.
Attachment 361363
02-05-2021, 01:39 PM
criscam

^^^looks like i'm having fun tomorrow. guess i should get out.
02-05-2021, 01:44 PM
jtran10

dumping in LCC per the webcams. these flakes in the valley are great too - so big
02-05-2021, 05:49 PM
wasatch_carpetbagger

Anyone stuck up on 210?
02-05-2021, 05:53 PM
Dshack89

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasatch_carpetbagger

Anyone stuck up on 210?

Yep, gonna be a long night
02-05-2021, 05:57 PM
beaterdit

Yep, I’m <10 cars from from the highway at entry 1. We hightailed it from the maze Peruvian when it was evident we wouldn’t make it onto the lift. Car had a dead battery, fuck. My cables are in my other car, took an hour to find some so missed the road. Got beer from Creekside and sitting in the car drinking it now. Public safety never did show up, d’oh. I’m sure they have their hands full.
02-05-2021, 06:04 PM
beaterdit

Good skiing though!
02-05-2021, 06:07 PM
wasatch_carpetbagger

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaterdit

Good skiing though!

Yea yesterday afternoon at Alta was pretty amazing. First time I got to actually enjoy collins on a pow day.

Hoping tm at soli will be as good....
02-05-2021, 06:32 PM
jtran10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasatch_carpetbagger

Yea yesterday afternoon at Alta was pretty amazing. First time I got to actually enjoy collins on a pow day.

Hoping tm at soli will be as good....

eagle lift is pretty similiar to sunnyside. that's where i'd go

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