I believe some folks, Skifishbum included, dig "hasties" along the route. Despite Dean C's recent downturn he was a pretty smart avie guy, he always said dig lost of hand hasty pits along the way, snow can change from place to place. Doesnt take the place of a proper pit, but can help with some things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boissal
I'm just gonna say ditto to Boissal and sfotex's posts. Very well said.
In regards to managing the south facing crust as a weak layer, depending on the snowpack it can definitely be a problem. The difference in a time like last weekend is this: it snows a foot, so you are dealing with sluffing or possible storm slab with the new snow/crust interface. You don't have the same problem to mitigate as North facing slopes- weak structure, concern of step down into old layers, and potential for huge connected slides and sympathetic releases.
But this is assuming no PWL on south facing slopes. Some times this is the case, some times it is not.
^ agreed, very well said...
ACL tear confirmed. Knife time next Friday.
hope you heal up fast!Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
X 5 or whatever we're up to now. Lots of quick snow evals while moving through terrain is generally the way I go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boissal
Because I like to over simplify things, I see two types of people digging full pits; those who are into the science (job, submitting obs to an avy center, student, etc.), and those that are trying to justify skiing something that they shouldn't.
Y'all have made some really good points in the last page or two (Boissal, sfotex, et al) but one other thing factors into my decision making, and that is predictability of avalanche problems(of course likelihood and consequence are factored in too). You can spend all day digging pits, and you can spend a lifetime learning how to ski the PC ridgeline safely, but there is always considerable unpredictability with PWL, especially our current snowpack. Therefore, as sfotex said, the default is Fuck No. 35 degree pow just isn't worth it, and I avoid steep north facing with PWL like the plague. Sometimes there are problems that are too complex to arrive at a real solution, and avoidance is the right answer. Other times with more predictable avalanche problems, you have more mitigation methods at your disposal (ski cuts, belayed ski cuts, ski before it warms, etc). Having clear go, no-go zones with your partners and good communication on these is key, and that's where it's easy to run into trouble.
Predictability can play into risk as well. I consider myself to have a high risk tolerance given the things I ski. But part of that is taking risks with predictable snowpack/conditions and stacking the chips in your favor. This really isn't possible with PWL in avalanche terrain like it may be for south facing new storm snow or ski mountaineering on a good spring snow pack.
Heal up fast, dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Roc
Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
https://www.parkrecord.com/news/summ...mD6OfFm1p0r19M
"And despite reports that PCMR officials were slated to meet with USFS counterparts this week, Forest Service officials said they were aware of no such meeting, though Kraja indicated the agency would be open to talks.
PCMR confirmed the indefinite gate closure the same day that the Utah Avalanche Center released its full report of the avalanche that killed a longtime Park City resident on Saturday. That report indicates the skiing partners had exited the gate atop the Ninety-Nine 90 chairlift three times that day to access backcountry terrain and that both were experienced backcountry skiers."
IIRC this is exactly how Alecs Barton died. There was a widespread PWL at the time but he was getting encouraging pit results. Confirmation biased himself into deciding the slope was safe and then, boom, gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boissal
Fuck I remember that. 2012? There was a very sobering post about exactly that process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
PWL is Problems with layers????
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Persistent Weak Layer
^^
Very true. The overall rating (moderate/high/whatever) has to due with the likelihood of slides. If you don't contextualize it with predictability & level on consequence you're in for a rough awakening.
I spend a fair amount of time skiing on considerable days when the main concerns are wind slabs and storm snow. I tend to regard those are predictable and manageable (within reason). By that I mean that you can (usually) tell where wind slabs tend to form based on wind patterns, they're (often) visible, you can (usually) approach them safely from above and trigger them on command via stomping at the top/edge, ski cuts, etc... Same goes for storm snow which, absent any risk of stepping down into older layers, tends so sluff/slide on the old snow below once the angle is sufficient. Again, none of this is absolute and a small wind pocket can fuck up your day even if you think you think have a perfect read on how it's going to behave. In general though a bad call under these circumstances doesn't carry an horribly severe penalty.
If we're talking considerable danger in the context of a PWL though, all bets are off. There are no tools to manage deep slabs other than leaving them be. They're too stealth, too patient, and too mean. All the tricks I've learned for dealing with wind slabs and new snow are useless at best and create a false sense of confidence at worst. I want to think I'm smarter than a wind slab but I know with 100% certainty that I'm dumber than a deep slab. And I also know that if ones takes a shot a me it will do so with extreme prejudice and I'm not likely to walk away. So, in my book, a moderate day with a PWL is significantly more problematic a considerable or even high day with wind/new snow problems.
The big issue in the Wasatch, and I think part of the reason we're seeing what we're seeing this season, is that we spend most of our seasons putzing around in a really user-friendly snowpack. It usually gives us good feedback, it's very clear with its warnings, and it requires a lot of provoking to react. We're so used to this that when we have to deal with a snowpack that isn't deeply sedated and responds to the slightest provocation shit hits the fan constantly. It won't stop until the WL is gone or bridged, or until everyone readjusts their perception based on reality vs historical data.
Found the post. It made an impression on me at the time, still pretty heavy.
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/....php?p=3531504
I remember reading that post, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by abraham
While snow stoke and powder shots are always great, I find it just as interesting/fascinating (if not more so) to learn more about the snowpacks we ski on, and prudent ways in which to approach them. Thanks for the discussion.
It's unfortunate that this thread isn't full of the usual mega stoke and FOMO-inducing pictures. But, as you said, the flip-side of the good times can't be ignored and we might as well use this shit season to (re)educate ourselves on the topics that ensure we can continue posting stoke instead of accident reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG4
I wish I could actually write down the process that is going on in my head right now in light of the recent incidents. Going back through some of the days I've had these past 2 seasons wondering if I'm alive because I make good decisions or because I'm a lucky delusional idiot isn't fun. D-Roc's story hit close to home, I've been on Gobbs on days that probably could have ended in a similar fashion.
Sun came out for 2 seconds tonight. Like a foot of blower, my hands almost fell offhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b04ff80259.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...911f753356.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f367325c07.jpg
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
I'm not a UT skier but just wanted to pop in and say thanks for the good dialogue in the last few pages. It's educational and makes me self reflect a good bit.
D-roc here comes a year of rehab. And fathering. Happy for ya. This story is for you.
I have no picture stoke 'cept old slides, but Brutahs been asking for stories.
Lemme know if I should continue...
20? years ago or so when I was forecasting at the bird I took the two trail crew from that year to run the High Little Cloud route. They'd been shoveling for 7-8 hours and I figured they'd earned it. (Caught shit from the Mongo after.)
Out above the Rd to Provo I handed one of them a shot.
His first.
"Ever made and avalanche?"
"No."
"Well you might make one here."
The slope released, 4'x100%. Cool.
It hits the slope below the road which fails.
To the south the fx runs to Mark Malu, and we watch the fx run north.
4-5' x 1000', no stauchwall
I'm mentally yelling "STOP STOP STOP" as it reaches and passes the Little Cloud sign line into Regulator which was open and trafficked.
The crack went into Regulator, but all the avalanching was on the Little Cloud side.
With cresting adrenaline I turned my attention back to an unusual sight, a Class 4 slide.
The avalanche gained speed, got funneled by the narrows at Dr. Hip and accelerated across the flats under the bench.
As it tore down the forest below and turned toward the base of the Little Cloud lift once I'm now again mentally yelling "STOP STOP STOP!"
People on the lift are yelling to those in line "Run for your lives!"
It stopped. Adrenaline crested.
Helluva first shot for that trail crew guy, eh?
The other fella threw the next shot which took our the next slope above the road.
Good slide, but nothing left below the road.
Mongo calls "Cease, desist."
My response was to "strike while the iron is hot".
I acquiesced but still got into trouble which wasn't hard
We put snowcats on that road, and I wanted to eliminate slopes that would sweep them off the road when they slid.
On our patrol ball caps that year they had embroidered "Strike while the iron's hot" on mine.
Great story!
Tfw stories ftw +++++
Damn Jimmy just like I was there.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
"Strike while the iron's hot" is a damn fine tag line. I really appreciate the stories, I can't think of a better way to provide stoke to this thread. I'm sure you've got thousands to tell. Thanks for sharing.
I also am enjoying the discussion going on around in this thread right now. I've been trying to find word to explain to friends why I haven't skied anything other than low angle trees here in the SW CO this season after spending the past two years living in LCC and skiing stuff on considerable days that I would have never touched previously. Boissal's nailed it,
After touring around the San Jaun's for the first 6 years I ventured into the BC I just assumed every problem was kind of like a PWL. You tip toed around it until it went away. End of story. I was blown away by how accessible and obvious avalanche problems were in the Wasatch the previous two seasons. Living in the canyon certainly helped as you see and live in it everyday, but storm slabs and windloading generally make their warning signs obvious. PWL on the other hand is a total gamble. Dig a dozen pits on every aspect and you may still miss that one layer that decides that your fate. With how this season has gone all over the west and the dangerous and horribly tragic snowpack we have currently in SW CO, I've been finding myself really trying to digest the hows and whys, and these candid discussions here really helped with that process.Quote:
The big issue in the Wasatch, and I think part of the reason we're seeing what we're seeing this season, is that we spend most of our seasons putzing around in a really user-friendly snowpack. It usually gives us good feedback, it's very clear with its warnings, and it requires a lot of provoking to react. We're so used to this that when we have to deal with a snowpack that isn't deeply sedated and responds to the slightest provocation shit hits the fan constantly. It won't stop until the WL is gone or bridged, or until everyone readjusts their perception based on reality vs historical data.
That's the hard part about backcountry skiing. Its a negative feedback loop. A lot of times the line between good decision making and not is blurry and when the mountain gets around to letting you know, its often too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boissal
I miss Alecs Barton. We still talk about him especially this time of year when the anniversary of his death and birthday come around. But he ignored the signs and his friends that told him not to ski argenta or little giant that day (myself included) He was arrogant and young and he paid a huge price for that arrogance. And it really sucks. The absoluteness of death fucking sucks.
I think a big underlying issue is complacency. I know I was complacent and straight up choose to ignore the signs when I got rolled in porter fork in December of 2018. I bet Kurt was complacent with his line choice too. It can be hard when you see people around you "getting away with it." On my fateful day, my partner had big plans for the day and I was hoping that we could just make it down the first run and maybe I could talk him out of the rest of his plans for the day. It wasn't my partner's fault that day, I could have stood my ground and gave him the big "fuck no" were not skiing that. I also didn't want to ski some low angle run when we had just spent two hours reaching the millcreek-BCC ridgeline. I even remember thinking to myself there's a 1/10 shot this slides and people are getting away with skiing similar things today, "my number won't get called today." I got caught and got to do the walk of shame out of porter fork. I got lucky and only broke and lost some gear, missed a month of skiing due to a tweaked knee and I have a sweet scar on my forehead to remind me about it. Its a shitty club to be in and I haven't mentioned it publicly before now. (I did report it anonymously to UAC) I think social media also further puts this pressure on people to further push those boundaries too. I don't really like talking about my mistakes so kudos to D-Roc for owning his so quickly and I hope your surgery goes well and you come back stronger than ever.
Something a good buddy of mine says when we bail on something that always sticks with me is that the mountains aren't going anywhere.