Wildfire 2023

Another method are programmatic NEPA approvals and things like ESA 7(a)(1) compliance, which is also a programmatic method. I know there’s been attempts to arguing that mitigation can be an emergency in relations to immediate threat to life and property, but have never heard of that working out at the federal level. In California, Newsome exempted all state enviro laws to implement a bunch of priority projects immediately after paradise burned down. That seemed to be a one time deal.

In CA, the state and federal gov has a 1M acre per year treatment goal and they’re now acknowledging that not enough is happening to reach that goal.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

- If you start letting the FS use a CE to cut large commercially viable trees, you aren't far away from them using it as an excuse to cut old growth or cut in sensitive areas or increase logging to an unsustainable level under the guise of "fire mitigation" without any public input and short cutting a bunch of environmental review. (I tend to agree that a 29,000 acre project would seem to be challenging to fit into a CE.)

- Outside groups play a big role in checking if the agencies are following NEPA. This is a outside group making the agency go through the legal motions to justify their actions.

- Tying the agencies in regulatory knots so they can't accomplish anything that goes against the goals of the litigant.

- The last admin was trying to push using regulatory mechanisms to get around NEPA and ESA reviews because they have an ideological position that is opposite the goals of those two pieces of legislation and would be happy to see them dumped in the trash can.


I'm guessing that a much smaller project, say something with a small footprint around a particular resource (campground, ranger station, etc) would fit the intent of the CE much better versus this large project (29,000 acres is 45 square miles) and would not have generated this lawsuit.

Here is Oregon Wilds press release:

https://www.oregonwild.org/about/press/conservation-groups-challenge-fremont-winema-logging-project

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Yep, giving officials a mechanism to skirt established environmental laws and regulations establishes precedent and can/will be used in the future under much less dire circumstances to skirt the laws and regulations... especially if another anti-enviro administration comes into power. As much of a PITA that these environmental groups can be sometimes, they are needed to keep govt accountable and ensure lawful application of laws and regulations so that rogue public officials arent allowed to just enforce their own agenda.

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

An interesting article about one place’s approach to growing fire danger.
This southern Oregon town is buying the forest around it to confront wildfires

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Good article. Don is an amazing human - goes above and beyond to make things happen. The Douglas-fir decline here in SW Oregon has really taken off over the past few years. Lots of dead standing trees...

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

21" DBH on the eastside is called the "Eastside Screen" and has been around since '94 as part of the Northwest Forest Plan. It was modified in 2021: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r6/la...d=fseprd710229

PAVER's aside....if your goal is to create a fire resilient forest that mimics old growth conditions of the past, it's pretty hard to get there if you cut down the big trees. Personally don't think it matters what the prior disturbance was (fire, bugs, logging,etc) as saying it can't be old growth because it's in an area that was previously cut automatically excludes a huge area from ever being considered again.

The stupidity comes in when these groups don't want 21" trees cut that are over represented (firs) or are overstocked.

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Thanks for this. I’d forgotten about the limits from ‘94 NFP. IIRC, that plan was in response to listing of spotted owls. It was also done when the climate science was in early stages and fire resilience was just getting into the lexicon.

To me prior disturbance matters because of how regeneration occurs - cut/run vs replanting a monoculture vs fire/neglect will get different results and require different approaches when the goal is to restore the ecosystem to a resilient sustainable condition..

Agreed that large stems should be preserved where it makes sense. But as the analysis you linked points out (box 14, page 42) rigidly applying the 21” standard across all species isn’t likely to restore a forest. A good example in the Green Ridge case - removing some >21” conifers to restore an aspen grove to a sustainable size.

But the PAVErs just have a knee-jerk CUT NO TREES OVER 21”!!! mantra. And they accuse the district ranger of being in cahoots with loggers. It’s not helpful.

And the AQI here has been 160-240 today…Now we have the Bedrock fire adding smoke from Simnasho.

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Originally Posted by donutlynx

The Douglas-fir decline here in SW Oregon has really taken off over the past few years. Lots of dead standing trees...

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Here’s a piece from OSU Extension Service on the topic.
https://extension.oregonstate.edu/fo...rtality-oregon

Well, the AQI here is now 160. Bedrock fire 50 miles SW of here blew up from 600 acres yesterday PM to 4500 now. Further to discussion above regarding stand resilience the current briefing describes the fuels involved as follows:

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Timber (Litter and Understory)
Closed Timber Litter
Brush (2 feet)

The mixed ownership of private and federal lands coupled with old fire scars provides a checker board mosaic of fuel types. Mixed aged classes of timber from slash and young managed stands to late seral stage timber are spread across the landscape. Light and very dry lichen moss is draped in the tree canopies and accentuates spotting.

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That’s gonna even out the age classes - most of the regen is up in smoke.

Search Google Earth for Bedrock Campground and it brings the narrative some color. The area’s steep and actively managed for timber production in prime site classes. Lotsa fuel. At least it’s well-roaded.

Calfire loss 3 in a helicopter crash yesterday in Riverside Co.

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Fuck Hanson

https://www.sfchronicle.com/californ...k-18261745.php

FS LODD out of Gold Beach, OR. First season on the hand crew. RIP :(

https://www.firefighternation.com/ne...in-lodd-in-or/

Holy shit.
“Lahaina (Maui) has been devastated,”

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Holy shit.
“Lahaina (Maui) has been devastated,”

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Dam. Will be there Saturday.

Lahaina is (was) a cool spot, hope it bounces back.

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Holy shit.
“Lahaina (Maui) has been devastated,”

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Fuck... this is the first I've heard about these Maui fires...

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Dam. Will be there Saturday.

Lahaina is (was) a cool spot, hope it bounces back.

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Sounds like you may want to consider modifying/cancelling your trip. Things look bad.

Pretty sad, my wife and I have some great memories from our time spent there.

^^^ fuck... lived there when I was a kid and went to king kahemahea elementary school in grade 1. Got engaged while surfing right in front of it as well. Wow this is so horrible.

Front St Lahaina
https://twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/st...93105487257600

Looks like Lahaina might be (unfortunately literally) toast. Pretty awful situation there. :frown:

This is tragic. We were there just last year, and to see places we literally spent time at in Lahaina going up in flames is awful…Isn’t there a mag who lives in Maui? Owns a bike shop if I remember correctly…. And yeah, when people are jumping into the ocean to avoid burning to death, I’d change any vacation plans as well. Vibes to Lahaina.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Dam. Will be there Saturday.

Lahaina is (was) a cool spot, hope it bounces back.

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Airlines are allowing free rebooking, or refunds. E.g.
https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/ale...ver-maui-fires

At the moment Hawaii seems to be encouraging Maui tourists to leave or stay home. Whether the same applies to Saturday, idk. Call the parts you're visiting to check whether they want you to come. I'd tend toward going. I glampacked in Yosemite during the Rim Fire, and only choked on smoke one day and one evening, and one peak I wanted to climb was inside the fire closure. Most of the other glampackers kept their trips as well. Ofc, no major towns were destroyed in that fire so ymmv. Call and ask.

I'd think advise is a little different when its an Island and one of the largest towns is on fire. People were literally jumping into the ocean to escape their town and homes being burned.

I think you might be comparing apples to oranges with your yellowstone comparison.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Dam. Will be there Saturday.

Lahaina is (was) a cool spot, hope it bounces back.

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We’re on the north shore, basically upwind of all the fires, and you wouldn’t know anything is going on without tv or the internet. UPS truck just delivered a package to my neighbor. Planes are taking off and landing at the airport.

If you’re supposed to be staying anywhere in West Maui you can probably forget about it. They’re evacuating tourists from Kaanapali and sending people around the north through Kahakuloa. Kihei seems to have dodged a bullet and Waimea resorts are OK. Upcountry fire is in Kula.

My wife and I had a really nice dinner in Lahaina last Saturday. It’s crazy that it’s all gone now. What little video has gotten out looks really bad.

:frown:

I can barely think about this.

Do we know if the Banyan tree survived?

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Originally Posted by KQ

:frown:

I can barely think about this.

Do we know if the Banyan tree survived?

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Doesn't sound like it but that's second hand from my parents. My school was right next door.

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Originally Posted by el hefe

Doesn't sound like it but that's second hand from my parents. My school was right next door.

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*weeps*

Childhood memories up in smoke :frown:

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Originally Posted by KQ

*weeps*

Childhood memories up in smoke :frown:

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x2

X3, loved seeing that tree.
What a nightmare for the community.
Attachment 467097

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Originally Posted by KQ

:frown:

I can barely think about this.

Do we know if the Banyan tree survived?

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My neighbor sent us a photo that makes it seem the banyan tree is not-destroyed. But if true that’s the only good news from Lahaina. All the other pictures we’ve seen are horrifying.

The tree is still standing. Looks charred and leave are gone but should survive I hope. Pics on the internet.

I cancelled my trip to Kaanapali. Airline was cool but resort not so cool at the moment, they will only refund if resort is closed on the day of my arrival so makes it hard to plan, I could be out $3k if they miraculously stay open.

Florida here I come…….fuck

6 dead in Lahaina

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/08...es-maui-hawaii

^ I just came to share that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/09/u...smid=url-share

Shit, shit, shit.

In case anyone else is wondering what to do about an upcoming Maui trip.

https://reddit.com/r/MauiVisitors/s/6c8XiicarL

Ugh

Lahaina looks like the second half of Full Metal Jacket.

Vibes to Hawaiians and anyone who lived through that or lost loved ones. Hope it comes back to its same atmosphere and feel - was a unique place.

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Originally Posted by snowaddict91

I'd think advise is a little different when its an Island and one of the largest towns is on fire. People were literally jumping into the ocean to escape their town and homes being burned.

I think you might be comparing apples to oranges with your yellowstone comparison.

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All true except Yellowstone.

http://hawaiicommunityfoundation.org/maui-strong

Please kick in whatever you can mags

Mauinow.com on FB is a source of info and images.

Friend’s son-in-law is on the mainland, but his apt is gone along with his work, Fleetwoods. Just one of many now displaced and unemployed.

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Originally Posted by KQ

:frown:

I can barely think about this.

Do we know if the Banyan tree survived?

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The twitter video above was taken from near the banyan tree.

Seawall area obviously gone.

edit:

Holy shit! It took out the harbor. Pioneer Inn, I'm sure.
And that burned boat hull looks like the Carthaginian. fuuuuuck.
But the tree looks like it could survive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66457731


https://gray-khnl-prod.cdn.arcpublis...SXQYYHREQY.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cp...0x667.jpg.webp
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cp...0x667.jpg.webp

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Originally Posted by PB

All true except Yellowstone.

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Yellowstone had its time with fire too. I remember the magazine covers. Orange sky, black forest, ash. Too bad for us humans :'( We'll rebuild. Nature will recover. Sucks today.

This is unreal. It was my happy place for me, and so many, for 25 yrs. They will rebuild, but it will never be the same.

So sad. Yes Lahaina will be rebuild. In a fake style. Hard to reproduce all that history.

The news is annoying as fuck. Blame the wind. Summer is windy as fuck on Maui. Granted it’s not usually Lahaina. Blame the non native grasses. Wtf. Sugar cane? They burn those fields for centuries. Drought? It’s summer. Although the drought monitor does show extreme areas.

Anyway. So sad to see the devastation of such a chill and historic town. RIP

What sucks is so much local housing was destroyed.

It’s going to take some serious master planning, logistics etc. to rebuild. My experience with island politics says maui county will make it a shit show.

Im hoping larry and others, will step up and offer project management, bridge the gap between insurance and cost overruns etc. it’s going to take a miracle to make that it the special it once was.