Ukraine

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

"justifiable"?
wow
i'm gonna give you a bit of rope as not a fucking lunatic & guess what you think is justifiable isn't what Putin told Russians yesterday: it's a peacekeeping move to protect from genocide & nazification

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No, those are just political talking points. Same as "There ARE weapons of mass destruction in this country" (I cant remember the quote at this time, sorry).


I can't speak to his aims, but a buffer between Moscow and NATO for sure with a bonus resource grab are my guess.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

<snip>
I can't speak to his aims, but a buffer between Moscow and NATO for sure with a bonus resource grab are my guess.

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Neither of which are "justifiable"... :nonono2:

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

You are ignoring the desires of everyday Ukrainians who have made it clear they do not want to align with RUS and want to be closer to the EU.

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He's completely out of his depth and spouting nonsense. Maybe spending some time in a once USSR occupied nation would help enlighten but the brain worms are probably too far in.

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

Neither of which are "justifiable"... :nonono2:

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America invaded and occupied an entire country because a guy that maybe lived there executed an attack against us. How was that justifiable?

I’ll be curious to find out what appeasement or non-moves the US, EU and NATO should have made to prevent this war. From my perspective Putin would have done the same or worse. The guy routinely used chemical weapons in other countries to eliminate his opponents among advances in other countries with basically no consequences.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

America invaded and occupied an entire country because a guy that maybe lived there executed an attack against us. How was that justifiable?

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It’s not and I protested that and Iraq.

Two wrongs (three) don’t make a right.

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Originally Posted by CarlMega

He's completely out of his depth and spouting nonsense. Maybe spending some time in a once USSR occupied nation would help enlighten but the brain worms are probably too far in.

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I've actually spent time in Russian and several former USSR states. The collapse of the Soviet Union did no favors for that part of the world.

But what is the answer then? To have the Russians bow down and kiss our boots like the Germans and the Japanese? Will we do that to China?

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

I've actually spent time in Russian and several former USSR states. The collapse of the Soviet Union did no favors for that part of the world.

But what is the answer then? To have the Russians bow down and kiss our boots like the Germans and the Japanese? Will we do that to China?

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The semi obvious thing is that they could offer favorable and desirable political, military and trade alliances to countries they want in their sphere of influence instead of violently overthrowing them.

(Yeah, yeah, same thing goes for the US. See our and Chinas exercise of soft power across the planet.)

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

It’s not and I protested that and Iraq.

Two wrongs (three) don’t make a right.

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And again, I in no way condone these attacks, nor do I think the Ukrainian people will be better off for them.

But if we fail to see how the actions of the west directly contributed to this war then we will be unable to choose a path forward which prevents or mitigates events like this in the future.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

And again, I in no way condone these attacks, nor do I think the Ukrainian people will be better off for them.

But if we fail to see how the actions of the west directly contributed to this war then we will be unable to choose a path forward which prevents or mitigates events like this in the future.

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Then you should stop using the word “justified” because Putins actions are not justifiable. Just like the invasion of Iraq is not justifiable.

I have now heard multiple people who have been around through multiple administrations saying that the last few times they were in the same room with Putin that he is different, not the same man he was a few years ago.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

I've actually spent time in Russian and several former USSR states. The collapse of the Soviet Union did no favors for that part of the world.

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That's all but unbelievable. Virtually every satellite nation has dramatically improved their circumstances and EU aligned nations are prospering. Even citizens in Russia are fairing better than under the USSR regime.

Putin doesn't need to do anything but honor standard rights of a sovereign nation.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

America invaded and occupied an entire country because a guy that maybe lived there executed an attack against us. How was that justifiable?

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It's not. And it's irrelevant with regards to Russia's invasion. FFS, man - get hold of yourself. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Meathelmet

Looking bad on the ground for the Ukrainians...
Russians seem to have been able to manoeuvre at will due the lack of mining, blowing up the bridges, staging proper air defence, full mobilisation and even leaving critical airfields to...wait for this...helicopter assault done in daylight.
Devastating if true. Had the Ukies managed to hold and bleed up ruskies for a week or two, things could have panned differently.
Now it is a real possibility that things will get steamrolled within days.
And that bodes bad for Europe/Rest of the world as Putin will continue the drive, emboldened by his success.

#damn

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Yeah, unfortunately all that seems accurate.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

No, those are just political talking points. Same as "There ARE weapons of mass destruction in this country" (I cant remember the quote at this time, sorry).

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not sure that's what I'd call "political talking points" exactly, but it certainly seems like the same kind of flimsy basis for military action

but nevertheless, that doesn't make it anymore reasonable cuz someone else did it; certainly not "justifiable"

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Originally Posted by CarlMega

That's all but unbelievable. Virtually every satellite nation has dramatically improved their circumstances and EU aligned nations are prospering. Even citizens in Russia are fairing better than under the USSR regime.

Putin doesn't need to do anything but honor standard rights of a sovereign nation.

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I worded that poorly, and did not portray my point correctly. The USSR did no favors to that part of the world. It remains economically depressed, and the collapse of the USSR led to even more infrastructure loss.
While overall better, many of the places I visited had missed out on many of the economic gains democratic countries had enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Then you should stop using the word “justified” because Putins actions are not justifiable.

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Originally Posted by CarlMega

Putin doesn't need to do anything but honor standard rights of a sovereign nation.

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

FFS, man - get hold of yourself. :mad:

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

but nevertheless, that doesn't make it anymore reasonable cuz someone else did it; certainly not "justifiable"

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Well, seems to be a consensus here. I am recusing myself from this discussion, will re-asses my thoughts, and report back.

Going from the point of how would I know?

It seems pretty obvious that Putin is going for a negotiated peace treaty where Russia owns crimea. They have been fighting over it for 8? Years. He wants that space uncontested

He has decided that this is the time and the way to accomplish that

The USA is no longer a net exporter of oil and gas

The current leadership world wide has no stomach for a real war against an organized military

The USA is broke. We cannot print the money to finance this

I am still unsure how much other countries are going to step up

I have not written them off.

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Originally Posted by Yukonrider

Well, seems to be a consensus here. I am recusing myself from this discussion, will re-asses my thoughts, and report back.

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While you're doing that please consider: if you can justify this invasion, is there any other invasion that isn't justified by comparison? Is it your intent to justify Iraq? Israel's illegal settlements? When you justify the escalated version you implicitly accept the precursor.

Lots of people here have spent time in Russia and Eastern Europe - myself included. That doesn’t mean shit by itself. That’s the classic TGR “I’ve been there bro” trope that gets played as a lame trump card for style points and not much else.

Justified? JFC get a grip. This both sides bullshit is batshit insane. The whole “we were wrong in Afghanistan and Iraq so we should just be quiet while another country does something just as wrong. Our previous mistake justifies the invasion of a sovereign nation. Plus NATO is bad so he has to build a buffer.”

Do you guys come up with this shit on your own? Cause you need to do some serious reflection on your critical thinking skills if so.

Russian citizens are protesting this action in the streets of Russia, specifically Pushkin Square which is 1000 meters from the Kremlin. Apparently they don't believe this action is justified

They will end up protesting 3000 miles away in Siberia if they're not careful.

I’m watching pictures of blown up burning stuff in Ukraine. It’s not lost on me that people were in those places

Innocent Ukrainians are being killed
This is not funny

It's normal when people get scared to try to downplay and come up with reasons why things are happening, or why it's not important.

Just take a deep breath in...

"I'm scared, and that's ok"

Heavy shit.

Attachment 407260

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Attachment 407260

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Perfect

Dexter, that's the first quality post you've made in this thread. I may be warming up to you a bit now.

Let's take things slow, OK? Despite my reputation I'm not that easy. We can talk things over after some broth at the BLT.

Holy shit, what happened in here today?

Is this what Dex has been doing when he’s not skiing grass and cutting it up with Jer?

And ::: :::, thanks for the soup stoke, maybe that will quell the Russian bots and ECRC alike.



Also, notes from the field: I’m sitting at the Int’l concourse SkyLounge right now and there’s a couple Russian women getting absolutely plastered down the bar. Laughing, having a great time. I may drop them a link to this thread just to kick it up a notch.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Fighting amongst ourselves is what the Russian, Chinese, Iranian, and NK info-ops against the West have been working hard on for over a decade (and really much longer). They have been extraordinarily successful as our vision has become insular and driven by the latest tweet and a focus on legitimate domestic problems has allowed our enemies to maneuver to dominate first the edges of the free world, and then the sphere of Allies that have allowed our culture to progress to the point where we can care and correct domestic injustice. Now we have to rise above domestic tribalism and attend to existential matters. We must rally first around our flag, then around our closest allies, then our treaty partners, and then the free world.

Or shortsighted culture must look up from tomorrow and look at next decade. Dictators can do that because they assume they will be around then. We can too, if we demand it of ourselves and our leaders. The fate of the free world is at a balance point. We can push the scales and hold the line, or we can begin an unstoppable slide into decades of darkness, turmoil, and war.

Realize that the differences at home are nowhere near the differences abroad. Spend five minutes looking at the fates of dominated nations and know what I mean. There is a cost to stand, but the cost of falling is much higher and more permanent. So fuck your domestic tribal identities that our foreign enemies demand we focus on. Join hands, stand for freedom, liberty, and the rule of law.

Fuck Putin and Fuck Xi

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Amen!

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Let's take things slow, OK? Despite my reputation I'm not that easy. We can talk things over after some broth at the BLT.

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Obviously I meant borscht, not broth. Makes no sense in this thread.

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Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Holy shit, what happened in here today?

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Apparently Russia invaded Ukraine from what I gather.

My wager is on Putin wanting a Ukraine that is destabilized and in a diminished status. I bet they force the Ukrainians into a peace settlement that gives up at least the eastern 3rd of the county, with Russia taking land at least to the Dnieper river since the North Crimean Canal has been a strategic water supply issue for Crimea since Ukraine dammed it. If he can't hold all of Ukriane, he at least is going to bloody them hard enough to send a message to rest of NATO. Plus all of the stuff about grabbing as much land as possible in a resource-rich part of Europe.

The problem, as many have pointed out already, is whether Ukraine get steamrolled in a few days versus holding out for weeks/months. There is some discussion surrounding the county of Moldova and their war with the breakaway region of Transnistria. Those separatists are VERY pro-russian, and with Moldova not being a NATO member makes them the next easiest target if Russia took the port of Odesa.

But of course, this dives waaaaay into the realm of speculation.

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

Dexter, that's the first quality post you've made in this thread. I may be warming up to you a bit now.

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I laffed too.

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Originally Posted by Timberridge

Apparently Russia invaded Ukraine from what I gather.

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Geezuz, then what’s Dex on about?

Don’t tell me it’s about soup.

A bowl of borscht qualifies you for thread expert status

I’m gonna see if these fun-loving Russian ladies down the bar have any good borscht recipes next time their Grey Goose runs dry.

(Confirmed they’re Russian and work for the googles here and also confirmed that it’s odd they prefer Goose, as overheard from a very loud conversation they had with an even louder Medallion Member).

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Originally Posted by ticketchecker

Personally I'm saddened to be watching this unfold in real time

WTF is Vlad's endgame? Does he want Alaska too?

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This brings up a good point about Alaska. I can’t help but think about poor Sarah Palin having to watch all this right out of her window

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Then you should stop using the word “justified” because

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And change your location for fuck’s sake, it’s confusing!

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Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

And change your location for fuck’s sake, it’s confusing!

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Marquette in the summer, west in the winter. But just for you, I'll change it. Yell at me again in May when I have to change it back.