This is what I've been doing. Recipe for the rice bars?Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Dates are also pretty great. Minimal water content, easy to chew, good mineral content, and just two dates have ~35 g carbs.
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This is what I've been doing. Recipe for the rice bars?Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Dates are also pretty great. Minimal water content, easy to chew, good mineral content, and just two dates have ~35 g carbs.
Basic rice bar recipe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
2c white sushi style rice
1/2c coconut flakes
1t salt
1t ginger
1t vanilla extract
5c water
Cook it low and slow.
When it cools, mix in 2/3c or so of yogurt or cream cheese and maple syrup/brown rice syrup/Aunt Jemima syrup to taste. You can add chocolate chips, chopped dates, or whatever you want, but don't go crazy or they won't hold together..
Spread it out in a flat cake pan about 3/4-1" thick, and cut into squares. I think we get about 15pc per recipe. Wrap in foil. We can usually get at least 2 uses out of each piece of foil, so the system saves waste too.
I also make a variation that is like a slightly spicy dal-baht bar, which might not be for everyone but I like them a lot.
Seth, not sure if you're asking about the 12 hour race or the other big ride, so I'll answer generally.Quote:
Originally Posted by sethschmautz
On big days (for going A-B as fast as possible), I tend to climb in Low-mid Zone 4, pushing to Zone 5 when the terrain demands it (ie, I can't really go any slower). I'll only go harder than Z5 up a steep grade if it's a short spurt, otherwise I tend to get off and power hike.
On flats I aim for Mid Zone 3. I also try to conserve as much as possible, being smooth, not pedaling where I don't need to, etc.
On days longer than 6 hours, I tend to drop down half a zone.
E.g. Climb at Low Z4, Flats at high Z2 / Low Z3,
I'd definitely be interested in the drink recipe.
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Mine is 250 g dextrose, 150 g sucrose, 5 g fine non-iodized salt, 2 g potassium citrate, 15 g True Lemon powder, 5 g citric acid. Tastes like lemonade. You can adjust the lemon and citric acid to taste. 1 tbs is 9-10 g carbs, about 3:1 glucose:fructose.Quote:
Originally Posted by radam
I’m curious - what’s the plus is that drink vs say something like a gu roctane drink mix?
Cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
Thanks a ton. I've been very consistent in my training - feeling really good and enjoying the process. Thanks for all of the great advice and answers to questions you've given. I'm learning a ton. Thanks also DTM and Climberevan - I appreciate the insight!Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
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So I know there is a growing body of research that supports sleep as one of the most beneficial recovery tools. I've done my best to adjust some of my habits to encourage better sleep and am at a point where unless its stiflingly hot or my brain is really wound up thinking about something, I generally fall asleep very easily. But I don't feel like I stay asleep very well. Sometimes its just being up a few times in the night for a few minutes, other times its waking up at 2am feeling like I am done sleeping (but also in no way rested). Have there been any studies done to research how various sleep aids would affect sleep's recovery benefits? I occasionally will take some benadryl to help with sleep but I feel like I had read somewhere that it can interfere with your body's ability to go into whatever phase of sleep where most recovery takes place. I have been trying to avoid it as a precautionary measure. I do take some melatonin (even though the studies I have read suggest a fairly weak sleep benefit) as particularly in the summer months with it being light to late I can have a little more trouble winding down even with a good nighttime routine.
tl:dr, Like most people, I feel better when I sleep more but I'm not sleeping as much as I'd like. Are stronger sleep aids worthwhile or no?
Sleep is so important that is not really a "recovery tool" so much as a prerequisite for any hope of decent performance. As much as people still neglect it, though, I can understand how it's come to be seen as a tool like foam rolling or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by radam
Anecdotally, I can cite cannabis as a useful tool. A small draw from an indica vape really helps to shut down the busy brain, and my GF loves tinctures or gummies to help get a full night of what we call Dead Person Style sleep. It's an easy, cheap, and no side effect thing to try, anyway. (Unless you live in a backwards place where it's still illegal, I guess.) 10 hours of DPS really does a body good!
I'm looking forward to others' suggestions on this front.
Mine is even more slacker-friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
500g maltodextrin powder (glucose) (Bezos or GNC in giant buckets)
250g fructose powder (same, but more $ and much sweeter tasting)
10g table salt
2 packs unsweetened Kool Aid (I like minimal flavor)
I have some random scoops that I weighed and marked so I can put in a known weight/calorie count without weighing it each time.
My GF prefers the version that is 100% maltodextrin because it's barely sweet and she can get more in that way. Experiment so you can figure out what works for your stomach.
Probably only related to my experience, but may help others:
I definitely grind my teeth in my sleep. Dentist told me so. I have had months of time off and on using various night guards. Generally the disposable ones, but I got one of the $30 mold at home in 5 minutes ones about a week ago. I 100% sleep WAYYYY deeper when I wear it. I probably was waking myself up with grinding before or something. With the new night guard I sometimes sleep straight through 8-9 hours with lots of REM cause the dreams are intense.
I bet lots of single people grind their teeth and don't know because they don't have a GF/Wife to be like, "Um, sounded like you were chewing rocks last night"
Yep. Pennies on the dollar.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
I'd go further--sleep is a prerequisite for any hope of good health, let alone serious athletic performance. Everyone should read Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep, it kinda changed my life. Sleep is the foundation upon which all health is built. Unfortunately society is not set up to protect sleep and it's often the first thing many of us are willing or required to sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Cannabis and sleep have not been as well studied as you may think, which is probably a consequence of the difficulty of researching Schedule I drugs. The data I have found seems to show that cannabis is very effective at reducing sleep latency, particularly in "busy brain" people who have a hard time shutting down their thoughts. It does reduce REM sleep somewhat, but REM sleep is also biased more toward the second half of the night when THC levels are falling off so it's probably still a net-positive for sleep overall.
Walker never mentions cannabis in WWS, but he has nothing good to say about almost all other sleep meds and devotes an entire chapter to the topic. They all just sedate you and don't promote normal restorative sleep cycles. Alcohol before bed, even small amounts, is especially bad. He stops just short of calling Ambien evil, and that might have been influenced by his attorneys. I don't recall benadryl being mentioned by name but I doubt it's much better.
A few grams of glycine, 100-200 mg of L-theanine, and a few hundred mg of Mg, either alone or in combination, are all worth trying.
My nocturnal polyuria wakes me up 3x per night no matter what so staying asleep all night is not something I'm familiar with or expect to experience in the future (I've seen my GP, a second GP/internist, two urologists, a nephrologist and a sleep specialist about it with zero results, I've resigned myself to living with it for the rest of my life). If I remember WWS correctly, his best advice for people who wake up in the middle of the night and have trouble falling back to sleep is to get out of bed for 5-10 minutes and either walk around slowly or sit on the couch and do some relaxation breathing. When you get back into bed you'll usually fall back asleep quickly.
No K? I have to take in extra Na and K on top of what's in my mix to prevent cramping, but that's a pretty individual thing. I'm aware that there's a dearth of data linking electrolyte depletion to cramps, but I've experimented with it quite a bit and for me salt works. Not capsules either, right in the mouth--an uncomfortably salty taste in my mouth seems to be a key part of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
The Kool Aid is a great idea. If I get bored of lemonade flavor I'll try that out, but I love citrus in general. I think you want it to be sweet. I've seen discussion of studies where simply swishing a sugary drink around athletes' mouths and then spitting it out improved performance (no effect with an equally sweet non-caloric drink). The hypothesis being that you have receptors in your mouth and esophagus that can detect glucose and this triggers your brain to take the brakes off before the calories even hit your bloodstream. I'd be curious to know if Pickles is familiar with these studies and whether the results have been interpreted correctly.
The main thing seems to be glucose:fructose at around 2:1-3:1, an electrolyte content of ~1.5%, and putting down enough of it. The rest is window dressing.
This all sounds right to me. My big problem has historically been waking at like 0230 with the mind racing. I try to leave the bedroom and read National Geographic or The New Yorker for an hour or so, and it almost always works to get me quieted down and ready to go back to sleep. The worst is when I toss and turn for an hour or more before getting out of bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
Whenever I take a break from alcohol I sleep much better. I'm not a heavy drinker, but even a 5% beer at 2100 seems to have a noticeable effect on my sleep. When I'm abstaining completely I will sometimes spend less time in bed but actually feel more rested over the course of a week or so.
My understanding (XTR?) is that cramping is much more tied to fatigue than electrolyte intake and that outside of extreme sweating for very long durations almost no one actually needs to supplement with salt or other minerals while exercising. My own personal experience is that I've cramped maybe twice on rides in the last 25 years, so I'm not worried about it either way.
I just volunteered again last weekend at the Tahoe Rim Trail ultra run. We have a huge aid station that runners pass multiple times on their loops with a shitload of food choices, and it's really interesting watching what the runners eat and drink. The fast ones, who are actually running, usually just want some drink mix in their bottles/bladders and then jet right out of there. (They will be finishing the 50 in ~8-9h, or the 100mi in ~20-26h.) As the race goes on the fast ones will sometimes eat some watermelon, and boiled potatoes dipped in salt is popular. They really eat very little compared with what cyclists would eat, though, but I think that's just because running makes it hard to keep anything down.
The fascinating eating really comes after about 15 hours for the slower runners (really mostly walkers at this point) who will be taking 30+ hours for the 100mi. They like all sorts of random shit like pickles and pickle juice, chips, soda, Ensure, rice balls dipped in soy sauce, turkey & cheese sandwiches, vegetable broth, miso soup, etc. Later in the night we give them quesadillas, tater tots (can't keep up with demand for those), sweet potato fries, beer, whiskey, tequila. Many of them really like salty stuff, but honestly I think it's more just what they can tolerate rather than what would be optimal for fueling. We do give out the E-Caps, but limit people to 2 each. The people who want those swear by them, but again I think it's impossible to extract the placebo effect.
I don't think the fact that the only muscles that are cramping are the fatigued ones precludes the possibility that it's related to an electrolyte imbalance. Like Dan, I cramp like a mofo, and I have no doubt that consistent and relatively heavy intake of electrolytes works to limit cramping. The taste aspect probably has some merit, but I try to avoid getting to the point where I can test that out anymore. It isn't just cramping, it's overall feel. Consistent intake of salt pills and tablets limits my feelings of fatigue, physically and mentally. I get a brain fog late into long rides in hot weather that effects my judgement and motivation. That's eliminated if I take in electrolytes. It also basically eliminates any after-ride twitching and weirdness.
This ^^ , instead of constsnt testing which is expensive just get an A1cQuote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
I am Type II and IME just eating the correct amounts of food ( follow the white label on food products) chose the products with lower amounts of sugar, also cut out added sugars made a huge difference on the A1c test
I also lost 15lbs and went from overweight to normal BMI
Even small amounts of alcohol near bed also badly exacerbates my NP, so I've practically quit drinking. Thankfully, Busch NA actually tastes pretty good. If you handed it to me in glass and told me it was PBR I wouldn't flinch. Plus, you can drink it in the car without worrying about open container or DUI!Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Yeah, I'm aware of the studies that fail to link electrolyte depletion to cramping, but for me, it works. I'm not sure I'd had a real cramp in my entire life until about 10 years ago and then suddenly it became a real problem. I did some experimentation and salt seemed to work. Then I found all the "not an electrolyte problem" studies and went away from it for a while and they came back. I cramped horribly on a relatively short ride this spring, went whole hog back to salt supplementation and haven't had a single problem since. The problem was just gone immediately and can't be explained by increased fitness. n=1 and all the caveats that come with it, but it makes me think there's a subset of the population where salt is the problem/solution but they get lost in the larger dataset.
Thanks for this. I am making a batch right now. Will throw in some maple syrup and semi-sweet choc chips. What size squares do you cut and do you have a ballpark # on the calories per bar?Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
I just cut them into even blocks based on the cake pan I have. I think they're about 2"x 3", usually. I kind of assume they are around 200kC, but i haven't added it up so that could be WAY off. We use the pre-cut foil sheets that come in a big box at restaurant stores, and that's the size that works well to fold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian
Maybe your contribution could be to add up the calories and weights of all of the ingredients and divide by the total yield so we can all learn how many calories they have!
Cramping was discussed extensively early in this thread. Worth going back to read.
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Got a fueling mystery I've been trying to figure out. I've never had stomach issues on a big ride (am able to eat gels, gu, drink mix, food, etc. as needed although I prefer normal food), but I got my ass kicked by some sort of fueling error a few weeks back:
- I camped out the night before a gravel race/ride (110 miles, 10k vert, 90 degree high temps). Drank lots of water/was well hydrated, had a big dinner, did have one beer. Slept like crap - maybe 2 - 4 hours max. I have 3 kids so leeping poorly before a ride isn't a huge deal.
- Woke up, had a bagel with peanut butter at 6am, and started riding at 7 am. First 21 miles/2 hours of the race climbed 4k vert. 3k of that occurred from mile 11 - 21.
- I spent the climb with the lead group of 6. The first hour of that was between endurance and sweet spot, the second hour was at or right below threshold (based on heart rate - I don't have power on this bike).
- During those two hours I drank one bottle of GU Roctane energy drink (mixed with 1L of water) + 2 gus during the climb. Did not drink normal water. Had a 3rd gu at the top.
- During the descent I started to get sharp pains in my stomach. At the bottom, I had a single shot block and a little drink mix and it was like someone punched me in the stomach. Every little bit of food I tried to eat for the next hour just caused more and more stomach pain. So I stopped eating and tried to ride it out. Other than a few shot blocks I didn't really touch food for the next 5 hours until I bonked. Then I forced some food and was fine. I bet I could have eaten way earlier than waiting to bonk at hour 5.
Any ideas? I had thought maybe I overate, but that doesn't seem like a crazy amount of food for 2 hours. I could def replace gu's with real food early in a race, but that's never ever been an issue for me. Either way, maybe I needed way more plain water in those first two hours?
edit to add - after rereading this I wonder if it was just some combo of stuff and there's no one culprit...
Have you used these products / Eaten a PB Bagel in the past without issue? In similar circumstances?Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
1. I don't think you over-ate. I also don't think the poor sleep compromised you (acutely in this instance).
2. Did your Roctane have caffeine? Is that normal for you?
3. Roctane has BCAAs, historically these have caused stomach pain for me.
Cramping is such a difficult topic as the etiology is varied depending on the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by climberevan
Purely electrolyte imbalance based cramping is, on paper, a less likely cause as the cramping ought to systemic (throughout the body) because the imbalance is not local to a specific muscle. This is likely to blame when the cramping is not associated with the working muscle.
Fatigue / localized based theories include leaky sarcoplasmic reticulum, lack of carbohydrate availability, etc.
However, it is possible that lower electrolyte levels can exacerbate the localized issues, leading to cramps in specific muscles.
1. If someone doesn't have an issue with cramping, then they do not need to make any changes.
2. If someone does have an issue with cramping, increased electrolytes (and carbohydrate intake) is an easy solution to try.
oh yeah - good question - all this food was super normal for me. Bread/PB in the morning, Roctane, etc. have all worked on other race/long days. The Roctane does have 35mg of caffeine per serving. I'll look into BCAA (I'm super new to fueling strategy stuff)
Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with them. Interestingly it seems they help both in carbohydrate limited and non-limited events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
E.g.
1. It helps if you're bonking
2. It also helps if you are starting a short and hard time-trial fully fueled.
Many pro-tour cyclists will race prologues and TT with a "shot-block" in their cheek to leverage this gain.
However, I always give this caveat:
If you do not deliver the carbohydrate the body is expecting, you are going to end up in a worse state. So, only do this in one of two conditions.
1. You are doing something short / hard effort and food in your stomach is going to cause distress (e.g. before a Cyclocross Race)
2. You are bonking and you cannot keep food down and you need something, anything, to get yourself out of trouble.
Otherwise you might as well eat the food and take in the calories your body thinks it's getting.
Regarding drink sweetness, I think it depends on the end-goal. I'm OK with a drink being less sweet as you still will get the increased blood sugar benefits, there just may be a time-delay as there is no endogenous release of CHO to fill the gap while the exogenous CHO is being digested.
Regarding Sleep Supplements: I *think* I've had good luck with glycine & ZMA supplementation for improved quality.
Some more info here: https://examine.com/topics/sleep-quality/
Mine always start in my quads. Trying to stretch it out can then sometimes lead to a hammy seizing up. But, as noted, I seem to have it licked for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
Hah, yeah, I'm certainly not suggesting you should just swish and spit, it's just a fascinating phenomenon. Good to know that it doesn't matter if you're actually taking in calories. I'm definitely more likely to drink more if it's sweet, and at least for me malto has always had a chalkiness to it that I find unpleasant and you don't get with dextrose.Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
From earlier in the thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWG
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Loving this thread!
For the people working on fueling, I have to put a plug for Spring Energy. They are gu/gel-like, real-food based, and I haven't had any stomach issues with them (though my stomach is pretty tolerable, I think). I use them for trail running but cyclists might enjoy them too. Boulder-based. https://myspringenergy.com/
Quote:
A few grams of glycine, 100-200 mg of L-theanine, and a few hundred mg of Mg, either alone or in combination, are all worth trying.
Thanks, DTM and Pickels. I noticed you didn't mention melatonin - unless I missed it - any reason why? I've had good success with melatonin (like 0.5 mg) but wake up a tiny bit out of it. Would love to avoid that: does glycine, et. al. make you feel that way? And if you take glycine, et. al., for a few nights in a row, is it hard to sleep the night you stop using it?Quote:
Regarding Sleep Supplements: I *think* I've had good luck with glycine & ZMA supplementation for improved quality.
I didn't recommend melatonin for exactly what you noticed: I tend to feel "off" in the morning, not unlike an antihistamine.Quote:
Originally Posted by fool
Glycine does not have that effect at all. Just feel more rested when I wake up.
As an alternative theory (and I'm not trying to convince you to reduce your salt intake), read through this with the consideration that your hamstring is in a shortened position when you are stretching your quads:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
https://sportsscientists.com/2007/11...amps-part-iii/
I've also never noticed any detrimental effects from glycine. There's good evidence that almost no one gets enough glycine from diet alone for optimum health (https://link.springer.com/article/10...038-009-0100-9 ; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5350494/) so supplementing with it probably carries additional benefits. Plus, it's very sweet, almost as sweet as sugar. It's a great alternative to sugar for sweetening anything where you dissolve it in water.
I think that's exactly what's happening when the hammys seize up. They're also fatigued but not as much as the quads, then they get placed in a very shortened position for an extended period and bam, now you're Elaine dancing on the side of the trail while both sides of your leg fire out of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
Mine get me every time I bend over the change my shoes at the end of a long ride or when I'm driving away. Pure Agony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
How much glycine do you take to sleep?Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
I take mine in the morning, maybe i should switch.
I didn't know it promotes sleep.
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Did a big ride this past weekend and had a few observations to share and questions to ask! The ride was a combo of a big backcountry mountain bike ride and a road/gravel ride home from the mountain bike ride. Total time in the saddle was about 6.5 hours:
MTB - 23 mi, 4200'
Gravel - 45 mi, 1500'
I stuffed my face (as suggested) from the beginning of the MTB ride and honestly felt better at the end than at the beginning. The route is known for really tough climbs (HAB) but I felt like I had a ton of energy at the end of the ride so I transitioned to the gravel bike and kept going.
I ate mostly Honey Stinger chews with a few granola bars, some jerky, peanut M&Ms, chips, and a pulled port sandwich. I drank the Gatorade Endurance (probably 1500ml) and about 1500ml of straight water.
Thinking that the gravel section was relatively short and relatively flat I left with about 750ml GE and 750 straight water. I don't think I realized that I was already on the verge of dehydration. I rode great for the first 30 miles, then promptly ran out of water. Running out of water had the effect of me not wanting to put any more food in me because I didn't have enough liquids to digest it properly. I started to spiral and sought out water.
I ended up with another 1500ml of water that I drank fairly quickly. Another 750ml would have been great. At this point I struggled to recover - when I stopped drinking, I stopped eating. When I stopped eating I started to run out of energy and rode the last 15 miles pretty slow. The guy that I saw on the e-bike at this point really pissed me off.
Observations:
1. This training plan has been really good for me. I finished the same MTB ride last year and couldn't have even considered the gravel ride afterward.
2. I think my nutrition plan (stuff your face, try to get a lot of carbs) was a good strategy and seemed to work really well for the majority.
3. I didn't take the road/gravel portion seriously enough and I should have recognized the hydration issue a lot sooner.
3b. I can continue to eat as long as I have water to drink. In addition to making sure I have food in the pouch, I need to make sure my bottles are full (and/or get bigger ones).
Question(s):
1. Realizing that the best defense is a good offense, if you start going downhill, how do you recover?
Thanks in advance!
Seth
Caffeine has saved me from bonking several times. It's a more powerful ergogenic than most people give it credit for. I always have a some caffeine pills in my kit for long rides. 50-100 mg is usually plenty for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by sethschmautz
In situations where you run out of food and/or water prematurely your first move should be to reduce intensity.
I read it literally, "How do I recover on downhills". Glad you answered first!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman
1. I agree that reducing intensity is the necessary move. Ideally, you slow down before you need to. This allows you to continue at a slightly reduced pace as opposed to full on implosion.
2. I'll also add that you need to be proactive and not let hubris get in the way. Be honest with yourself about how you're feeling, where you are, and where you're going.
3. Often people will ignore important signs. Despite feeling good at the moment, that quick hamstring cramp when you got off for the HAB is likely to come back... with a vengeance.
4. If you're consuming more than you plan now, you will not be able to make it up by rationing later.
I carry a water filter on longer rides (typically a Katahdyn BeFree); this allows the freedom to get back on track (assuming you have water sources).
5. Ketone Esters have saved me, but they're typically a last-ditch "get to the finish" solution as they upset my stomach and I struggle to eat after. It's like drinking flavored kerosene.
Ha! Yeah, I suppose that I could have posed that question a bit better. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
When I go out on a 1-2 hour ride I think the thought process of "yeah, I'm thirsty, but I can make the next 45 minutes without water" is probably true. When I'm already 5.5 hours in, I can't afford to make that same call. I chalk (chock?) this up to having less experience with these longer efforts. In hindsight I rode my bike by a lemonade stand in the middle of nowhere that I almost stopped at. . . That probably would have kept me going.Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
I had one of those filters on the mtb ride but I left it when I started the road/gravel section. That also would have changed the game and something I hadn't planned on bringing with me (but probably will).Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
That doesn't sound very pleasant.Quote:
Originally Posted by XtrPickels
Another "anecdotal from the field" comment:
I raced enduro last weekend. Overheard from one pro woman, "This is harder than the last 4 or 5 EWS races."...Lots of DNFs. Several it seemed quit cause they just didn't want to do the grueling HAB again.
I mean it was hard and hot, but I think what helped me hugely was trying to eat as much real food as possible. Giant breakfast 3 hours before start time.....aka camp was still dead quiet and I was up making breakfast instead of sleeping in. I tried apples and bananas during race days and felt amazing. I had a few Kate's bars and Honey Stinger Waffles too. I had like one pack of blocks and one hammer gel all weekend.
I tried to eat the rice bars I made and maybe my recipe sucked cause they were very wet/gooey and very hard to eat. Like oatmeal in a foil wrapper.
Either way I am off the block/gel game unless I have no choice. If I have to pack everything in maybe I will try some dried fruit/sliced apples smashed into my pack. I think having an actual sandwich on course would have been great too. I never felt that gross synthetic block/gel feeling I usually get 5 hours into a day of HAB.
On long rides, esp when hot out, I almost always stop at a Wawa or 7-11 and grab an airplane sized Coke (or a larger one and drink less); I almost always find that its the perfect amount of refreshment and NEVER fails to pick-me-up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman