Over what period of time did you own the "last 4 VWs"?Quote:
Originally Posted by HankScorpio
How do you reconcile "extremely reliable" with "for the most part" and with "I would never get one without a solid warranty"?
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Over what period of time did you own the "last 4 VWs"?Quote:
Originally Posted by HankScorpio
How do you reconcile "extremely reliable" with "for the most part" and with "I would never get one without a solid warranty"?
FTFY.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad_games
We had/have a last gen '11 Touareg, '11 Jetta wagon, '15 GTI and '17 Alltrak. "extremely reliable for the most part" was a poor choice of words. They were all reliable other than 2 recalls (water pump on GTI and faulty sensor on the Touareg).Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
Also had 2 A4s (98 and 05) which were complete money pit disasters.
Any used car needs to come with a warranty for me.
Were the two '11s replaced by the '15 and '17?Quote:
Originally Posted by HankScorpio
The '11 Jetta wagon was traded for a GTI. The Touareg (which I kick myself for trading in) was traded in for a Volvo V60 but we ditched that in favor of the Alltrack.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
You all go through cars quick!! For me, reliability is related to shit working in the long view, like more than 10 years later.
There seems to be a supportable argument related to improved safety for emergency handling for locking the center diff in compromised traction situations. See the later half of this vidQuote:
Originally Posted by nomad_games
https://youtu.be/EBmw6Wpfe6M
If I’m off base about this, I’d appreciate knowing.
Back when I had an 88 4Runner with auto hubs, if the truck was in 4wd, the center diff was locked. There were times where I’d drive hundreds of highway miles in mixed road conditions in 4wd (as required by CHP) without problems.
in 13" of fresh I was wishing for some snows today... not sure that would've helped my 8.7" clearance but it couldn't have hurt!
I have to disagree. One of the comments in the video covers it extensively:Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
1. Locked center offers less directional control on any surface in order to gain surety of traction in complex uneven terrain (ie the example with the front axle high with a wheel fully off the ground. The second example is RWD truck vs truck in 4WD (locked center).
2. That's why rally racers use AWD (FT-4WD). You see subies and audis... if a locked center was better, they'd use it.
3. The logical progression to validate this thought is adding yet another locker (rear locker) think about what that does, now go back to the center lock quandary.
I believe snow driving is more analogous to rally than to proper 4-wheeling... until you get into deep unplowed or stuck in the ditch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMCJibC7nbAQuote:
Hi Mr Andrew. Congratulations for the video. I like very much your training videos and I consider you a Master Class in 4x4 world. However, I'm not totally agree with the explanation. According to you, Full Time 4WD is the very same that 2WD in most situations because of the fact that, in both 2WD or FT-4WD if you lift a wheel off the ground the car is instantly stuck. Ok, this is true when you are off roading in very irregular grounds, but the tyre behavior in terms of traction is not a matter of all or nothing, always or almost always there is an amount of traction on each wheel, even on snow, gravel, wet pavement, etc, and there are really very few situations in which one wheel loses all traction, like lifted off the ground. If you drive a 2WD car on wet pavement, the most of the time the car will keep moving and it only will get stuck if one wheel loses too much traction, but if you drive the same car in FT-4WD you significantly increase the traction, sending the power of the engine to the 4 wheels. Certainly, even in FT-4WD if you lift only one wheel, you will get stuck like in 2WD, but keeping a very small traction by wheel, FT-4WD greatly improve the movement and safety.
If not, what is the reasoning of the Full Time? The best cars in the World Rally Championship are 4WD from the begining. In 1973 a 4WD Jeep Wagoneer AKA Moby Dick won a rally competition where the rest of the competitors were 2WD sport cars.
From my experience. I have a Jeep Liberty KJ with Command-Trac system from factory (2H - 4H Part-Time - 4L). A time ago I decided to change the transfer case from NV231 to NV242 with Full-Time because of the improvement claimed by owners in rainy and snowy roads. Well, the improvement was greatly and not only on wet pavement. Before, when off roading, because of the 4WD, for taking curves with small radius I needed to go back and repeat the manuever to exit the corner even in a car with a good steering radius, and now I enter and exit the corner in one maneuver.
On the road, this car has a rear LSD from factory and I must say that driving a rear 2WD with LSD on twisted wet roas is like dancing and you have to modulate the gas pedal very careful. Ask to the BMW owners. Jeje... When you drive a car in 4WD center locked, the car always try to go strait even when you slightly turn the wheels and it can get a lot worse on wet or ice. When you drive in Full-Time on wet:
CONS: the traction in every wheel is certainly not 100% and depends on the three open differentials.
PROS: the car goes exactly where you drive it.
If you think about a car with ESP on the road, Its main characteristic is braking differents wheels in different moments of a situation to keep the car in control in the middle of a corner so if you force your four wheels to turn at the same speed putting 4WD center locked, I think you are worsening the behavior of the car in many situations, even in off road and I think it will behave better in FT-4WD. This is the same reason why is not a good idea driving on dry pavement with axle lockers on.
I think that every position is good for something:
2WD to improve mileage in dry roads.
FT-4WD to improve traction on roads with wet-dry situations when you can't use 4WD all the time.
4WD for gravel roads and light off-road without climbing, rocks, etc.
4L for fun.
Here is a very good Toyota 4WD training video that can help to clarify all of this questions.
^^^ Just pickin' nits, but dedicated rally cars use a limited slip center differential that is likely complex, expensive, and adjustable offering best of both worlds between an open diff and a locked diff. Today's road-going subies and audis have somethin similar. If you want lateral traction and stability, an open diff allows just that. If you want maximum forward traction, locked diffs are the best option. Limited slip differentials allow both.
Best summaryQuote:
Originally Posted by KyleLanTheman
A bunch of locked axles going down the road because you lock the diffs is likely to lead to more wheel slip because open diffs keep tires rolling the same speed as the road underneath them without interference from the other wheels. Uneven tire size or going around a corner will cause wheel slip which leads to some wheels having less traction than others. Juicing the throttle can result in multiple wheels spinning and the entire vehicle losing traction and directional control instantly rather than just 1 tire losing traction and the slower snowball effect that is much more controllable on a car with open diffs.
I agree^^^. Subbies and audis have had various types of center diff lockers and LSDs. They used to have center lock switches. This is easy to look up.
This is a good discussion. Many vehicles have different systems. Some have an automatic method (mechanical or electronic) way to control wheel spin and some require user mechanical operations to control wheel spin. I believe many non-subbie/vw-based vehicles like Toyota's and trucks have a fully open differential and a mechanical center locker. It's useful to understand how they work.
Also that toyota video is oddly off. Jamal's explanation about torque is better.
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IME, Mazda AWD > Subie AWD
Which of the 57 Subaru all-wheel-drive systems is it better than? All of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeezerSteve
And of course they’re all symmetrical!!
Ha, well, my n = 8 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
worked for ABBAQuote:
Originally Posted by plugboots
That's oversimplifying it. Audi and Subaru use several different AWD systems. Some are pretty good. Some aren't anything special.Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLanTheman
Locked differentials are not what you want on a road vehicle. Off road, selectable (ARB etc) or automatic (Detroit etc) can be very useful in difficult terrain. On snow, lockers are not desirable - the locked axle will just crab sideways downhill.
Limited slips vary a lot too. Torsen and gear driven (True Trac etc) can be quite good off road, esp in front axles that still need to steer and not overstress U joints or CVs. Clutch pack LSD can be set up more aggressive or fairly mild.
A LSD diff might help on snow, or might send you sideways into the ditch.
Center differentials can be open, locked, or somewhere in between (viscous coupling, Torsen, clutch pack).
IMHO on snow, on road, a computer controlled system that integrates yaw sensors along with wheel spin, and sends torque where useful, is ideal. These can be brake based or diff based, or on hybrids, even separate electric motor controls. Honda /Acura SH-AWD is a good example of what I'd prefer to have for a snow vehicle.
Good discussion indeed. Since very few of us have a locking rear diff and we are discussing forward traction differences between LSD open and locking centers, I think now would be a good time to discuss BTM or Brake Throttle Modulation, AKA "left foot braking" AKA "one little trick to help you get unstuck a little bit maybe sometimes."
It is as simple as slightly apply the brakes and then gently applying the throttle. But it takes some practice.
This is a manual version of what your electronic traction control is doing, except the computer applies brakes to individual wheels where you are limited to applying it to all 4 wheels (or the rear two wheels if your e-brake is manual instead of electronic). Sometimes (if you are stuck) BTM can work better than the computer traction control. You may actually disable your traction control especially since in some vehicles (Toyota for example) it auto-throttles down when ATRAC detects traction loss (I don't remember what subies do). If your vehicle doesn't have a manual disable button (pre-2008 4Runners) for traction control, putting it in 4-Low usually does the trick, but having the brake engaged for BTM also usually disables ATRAC for the moment.
START at 53sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L85t5WLCK84
This works on RWD with a hand brake as well.
4wheelers have been using BTM for ages, but I don't think most mountain drivers know it for getting unstuck in the snow. If someone who is good at this wants to take a better shot at 'splainin... please do!
That trick works really well with a torsen, because those use gears to send a multiplication of torque of the wheel with the least traction to the other, and also they do not rely on a speed difference like a clutch or viscous diff.
With an open diff, braking doesn't do you that much good, as the wheel with grip has to overcome the braking force which is the same on both sides so the net torque applied doesn't change.
With a torsen, the multiplication factor might be 4:1. That means if your wheel with the least traction can apply, say, 10 lb-ft, the other wheel with grip could get up to 40. There problem with that type of diff is that 0 x 4 is 0, so with very little traction, or a wheel in the air, it doesn't work. But if you brake, the side with the most traction gets more torque and can overcome the brakes to move you forward.
IMO a helical diff is the best purely mechanical option if all the wheels are going to stay on the ground and have a reasonable amount of grip. Audi thinks so too and uses them in a lot of cars.
Clutches i think are better when there's less grip, or bigger differences in traction, or when wheels come off the ground. Being able to control then electronically is even better because they work more smoothly in some situations (i.e open when you're trying to park), and can be locked pre-emptively instead of needing to wait for a speed difference.
Subaru uses electric clutches in automatic transmissions and the sti. The sti even gives you a little dial to adjust it yourself plus different presets for auto mode that give more or less lockup across the board. The vtd autos and cvts have a very similar center diff but without the dial.
Honda's sh-awd seems neat, although i'm not completely clear on how it works. I think each rear axle gets it's own clutch pack so that power can be sent to just one wheel or the other. And there's no actual differential, just a solid shaft turned by the ring gear (also called a spool).
As far as rally cars go, i think they tend toward more lockup, and fancy e-diffs are usually not allowed. The popular rally center diff for subarus is the group n sti part that is just a viscous center with a very strong/stiff coupling that acts almost like it's locked.
Good points. True, none of the crossover SUVs have locking rear diffs. Some of the off-road oriented truck based ones, and some trucks, do from the factory - which is a great option for offroaders, but probably best to not use then on road, ever.
Unless it's donut time in the snowy parking lot...
I don't believe this vehicle employed a center differential, just an old fashioned t-case, power to the front is either "on" or "off" and is operator selected.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
Do agree that locked center diff sacrifices directional control due to increased wheel slip from driveline wind up (understeer), nonetheless, for a while, years, the regs called for WRC cars to not employ a CD at all. Back to CD in 2017. May have more to do with what the regulating body is trying to accomplish with rule changes vs. what is the "best." Remember they are race cars that can be set up to compensate much more easily that a passenger car built for (relative) comfort and longevity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Some were locked without using a CD at all for a while, here's a discussion:Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal
http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.c...otorsport.html
The new version is high tech and once again uses [at least a version of what could be called] a CD:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsp...ial-explained/
Yeah, makes me wonder how a Detroit locker would do. Lock once in November and then dance around until the snow melts in April and you round a turn on the dry? If I had the need, I'd lean heavily towards operator actuated as opposed to the automatic lock up/unlock, but, yeah, those are for true off road use, would be great in the unplowed or the ditch as pointed out before.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
GM puts an auto locking rear in a lot of their trucks. I'll notice it working sometimes even when it's dry but for the most part it's unobtrusive and effective.
Actual lsds are probably getting more rare though. Like why pay for torsens when you can just use traction control. And when you can brake an individual wheel, you do get a benefit and can change the torque bias to the ground with an open diff. Downside is that can wear out and overheat brakes, and it's applying the brakes and maybe cutting power. Sometimes you need, or want a little wheel spin.
They're still out there though- honda and audi for example do make some pretty fancy diffs still.
I put a Detroit locker in the rear of my XJ Cherokee, with a manual transmission. That was entertaining on snow... So long as it was in 4WD, I could keep it under control. Far from ideal for a ski vehicle.
Actually, in my old pickup trucks with kind of disproportionate braking and no newer tech, having the hubs and case engaged keeps from just locking the fronts while the rears turn...or vice versa. Braking on ice is a lot better with the case locked on that kind of old style setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by wicked_sick
Subie (at least the 2015+ OB and 2014+ Forester) lets you manually disable -- for those unfamiliar, there's a button on the left side of the steering wheel that looks like a car fishtailing, you have to press and hold for 3 second until the same symbol pops up on the instrument display. Crucial to turn it off if stuck (or even better, before you get stuck) because the computer WILL cut power to all wheels when none has enough traction ... and then you'll lose momentum and become stuck, if you weren't already. Best I've found is traction control off and BTM. Sometimes X-Mode on can help because it supposedly engages a lower (electronic) gear ratio, so it's kinda like a crummy version of 4-lo. But it also increases the sensitivity of the VDC and applies very liberal use of BTM, so I don't like to keep it on very long, if I bother with it at all. I guess it's helpful for the masses who don't understand "left foot braking."Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
I'm sure jamal or someone else could give you a better run down of X-Mode. I'm honestly not sure how exactly it works when traction control is turned off.
In the 4wd community there are folks who claim Detroit lockers are the best option in slick condition because it’s predictable. In other words you will always be on the verge of loosing control. No thanks.
Didnt't read the whole thread but figured I would throw in Nokian hakkapeliitta 8. Got those this year and damn, it's like ice skates carving tracks down the street
Had studless Nokian and blizzaks in the past, like these the best so far. Mostly because on siped roads on I-80 going down to Reno, these don't shimmy whereas the studless ones shimmied like crazy. I thought I had a broken axle/ rear sway bar the first time I drove on that section of Highway.
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i bet the hakkaluuggie 8 are great. I always thought that a shimmie was due to tire/wheel balance problems, which can be corrected. i've had several blizzaks versions on 3 different vehicles and never had shimmie issues at highway speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcjr
yes. that's correct. it was a transfer case. thanks for the correction. from a driver's perception, it essentially operates the same as a center diff lock, right? rotational speed is the same between the rear and the front axles, one does not want to make turns on dry pavement because of the equal rotational speeds, open diff on each axle, torque is even between the left and right wheel of each axle, and you're stuck if one wheel on each axle has zero traction (unless you have some other kinda traction control issue on an axle). is that true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jong Lafitte
i found an interesting thread on the mud forum with a lot of input from some driving coach at a steamboat ice thing.
The shimmy was just on the siped part of the road made to drain water witch Tahoe to Reno has a fairly large section. So it was like the sipes of the really soft blizzaks against the many grooves/ sipes on the highway going downhill. Otherwise blizzaks were fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
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Got it!Quote:
Originally Posted by markcjr
Yeah, exactly, it’s the same as if there were a diff but locked all the time and yes, one front and one rear with zero traction and your spinning those two tires with zero traction. With full traction say on tarmac, yeah, the driveline will “wind” up and you’ll feel it binding, due to the same rotation speed being employed but far reduced ability to slip to make up for it as it would in snow or such.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
I had this old Jeep and trashed the rear driveshaft. I dropped the pulled it off and drove in “4x4” (fronts only) for a week til I could afford a new rear drive shaft.
Attachment 258274
Attachment 258275
I shoulda never put those aux lights on there.
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Given how car-crazy the US is, I find it interesting how uneducated they are about proper tires. Running winter tires is pretty much kindergarten knowledge in scandinavia.
Tell that to Lewis Hamilton.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
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Given how car crazy we are I find it interesting how little people know about cars or how to operate them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveLarger
Climate is pretty different in the majority of the US than in Scandinavia.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveLarger
I bet 9 out of 10 people can't change their own oilQuote:
Originally Posted by LiveLarger
actual climate, or "ice covered mountain passes with death dropoffs on oneside somewhere near seattle" perceived climate?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
Both. Scandinavia doesn’t have anywhere with climate like Florida or Texas. Scandinavia does have areas with “ice covered mountain passes” (northern Norway) and areas that are quite Seattle like (Oslo), as well as places quite like Michigan (Finland).Quote:
Originally Posted by dunfree
But I’m thinking your post was a little facetious. [emoji6]
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IDK scandinavia, but in the US, unless you actually live in the mountains , or somewhere like minnesota, the large majority of your driving is in reality going to be on dry/wet roads with only the final portion on snow/ice. Or the random few days during the winter where it does snow/ice up down low and everybody is crawling along. In Scandinavia, you drive on ice/snow everyday for like 4 months out of the year, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallthus
I guess that depends on what you mean "in the mountains." Icy and/or snowy roads are common throughout the winter in places in the northern interior west that are not actually "in the mountains," e.g., central and E WA and much of MT. I-90 through MT is often icy and snowy, and side roads off the interstate often stay icy and/or snowy throughout the winter. Missoula, Bozeman and Livingston are surrounded by mountains, but not "in the mountains."Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
Modern Bimmers* don’t even have a dipstick. :nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfred
*supposedly most other luxury cars as well, but I don’t know for sure