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Definitely feels familiar doesn't it (and hilarious sometimes).Quote:
Originally Posted by MHSP1497
Thread drift: What's a ski with similar dimensions to the Hoji but less reverse camber? 30m radius, 130ish-110ish-120ish, 1800-200g @ 185-190 length.
Beast 108¿
Maybe the Corvus 2019 also.
Praxis Backcountry
Praxis MVPQuote:
Originally Posted by gramboh
Thanks dudes, given me some stuff to think about... won't be buying anything until spring/summer but may as well do the research now.
Definitely not financial decision. We sell factory direct to consumer so we can afford to use the highest quality materials regardless of they're cost. If we wanted to save money, we'd be building them in Asia.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpnz
The reason for change is very simple, as you know there's an undeniable heightened awareness and customer sensitivity to ski weights in recent years specifically models used for BC and touring etc. Being that we've now introduced a series of skis with Metal construction in the past 2 years MSP 99 & MSP 107 that are less weight conscious, it only made sense to focus on making sure Eric's series stand out as lighter and able to be able to go head to head with other models on the market when it comes to weight while maintaining the power and feel they're known for.
Unpossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JLev
Carry on.
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Let other ski companies make crappy lightweight skis that ski like shit. Stand on your own and continue to make the skis people love. Compete by making crap and you’ll disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by JLev
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No intention to make crap, never have, never will. I think the weight difference is being blown a bit out of proportion here. Sit tight on this one and we'll continue to build skis with the same high innovation and downhill performance goals 4FRNT and our athletes have always maintained. Thanks for the passion!Quote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
We have tried light weight skis.. they arent as stable as heavy skis inbounds in any chunk
I dont think there is any way around that
When I’m skiing inbounds, I do not want a lighter ski, not for any reason whatsoever.
The big renegade went from 2600g/ski in 2015, to 1900g/ski in 2018?
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To be fair to J, the comment he was responding to seemed a bit boneheaded to me too. I very seriously doubt that the material cost difference of a slightly thicker/thinner base material is remotely meaningful. To the extent base prices differ I would imagine it is mostly quality of material - the ON3P indestructo bases made of durasurf 4001 could cost more than mass market bases because the material spec is less common.
I may very well be wrong about that and thicker bases actually do cost more per unit by more than $10/pair of skis, but if you think that I'm hoping you have some evidence (like for example working for/owning a ski manufacturer or base material maker). Plastic is pretty cheap per unit weight most of the time.
On the other hand, a lot of what he said was very definitely marketing copy. I am not endorsing it.
Thinner bases and edges, therefore, less durability, and also lighter weight and soft flex, on a ski that, up until now, has been a solid and absolutely slaying big mountain charger stomp machine.
No thanks.
Again, it sounds like a Rossi Soul 7 (although the Soul 7 has a stiffer flex than this new Renegade). Great for 90% of the blue run skiers out there, but definitely not in the spirit of the Renegade, IMHO.
Seems to me that should have named this new ski the RENEGLADE.
I wish I still worked for a plastic thermoforming business, I could have absolutely answered the plastic cost question. 5-10 bucks a ski isn't insignificant when manufacturing (I'm sure especially in the ski industry) has notoriously small margins. That's a 1-2% saving on every ski sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly
I get your point that 5-10 could be meaningful. All margin dollars are meaningful in competitive businesses. That said, 4FRNT is probably ordering far less than 10K pairs across all effected models. I would be surprised if any reasonable person would try to take what is at most $100K in costs out of the business through base material and edges.Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLanTheman
I don't know what 4FRNT's margins are on skis they actually sell, but I'd guess they are between $100 and $200 based on some prior comments. I get that $10/ski is 5-10% of the net margin, but it seems like a really dumb corner to cut to me. Even if J is more of a marketing/branding guy and less of an obsessive ski tinkerer like Scott or Luke, I own and like a pair of skis from his J brand.
Outside bike and ski in canmore,ab has a pair of unmounted 196 black and green. 500$ cad.
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[emoji54][emoji54][emoji54]Quote:
Originally Posted by crashidy
Somebody needs to jump on those.
One run mistake for this year per jlev initial response. 4frnt plans to change renegade for 2020-2021. Who knows this years might rock for all but 60mph dh turns? I got one would like to try them.Quote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
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Double post by retard..... me
Agreed. Physics sets the limitations for light skis. No shape or technology can get around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuse
All the rhetoric coming from JLev is damage control. That is expected. It's no surprise. The topic of the MSP's, and blah, blah, and making Hoji's skis stand out is just ludacris (Ha!). You can't say that the much heavier, smaller, trad camber MSP's are even in the same conversations as the Rens.
But honestly, changing the base and edges should have been communicated from the very beginning (Before accepting orders). That was the first lapse in respect for those who pay the bills (customers).
Secondly, making a change in production WITHOUT testing was either a result of JLev running 4FRNT like a side gig to J Skis, or JLev just plain screwing the pooch.
Thirdly, this could all be some business strategy to get the Renegade (Now "Bastard Renegade") to a more Blue Run crowd like a mag already suggested previously.
Fourthly, dropping the Ren changes late didn't allow for a negative response from the internet this past summer/fall.
Finally, dropping the changes info late would result in more units being accepted by the consumer "as is" due to the statistical influence of sunk cost fallacy. At this point, folks were already committed as the Ren was already a part of their ski season budget. They were already emotionally committed with stoke to ski the new Renegade. Or maybe they sold off some of their quiver to make room for the Renegade. There are lots of possible sunk cost fallacy components.
The late notification is the key piece. "Let people know late, and we can begin to tame the ski to the masses without a major $ hit in the year of change. After some time, news will fade of the Bastard Renegade and it WILL become the Renegade."
RENEGLADE
I just got mine. It’s softer but not a noodle. Will mount and try 3 days and see. 3 days may take me all season though ;). I also got OG white room 186 to remind me of the good old days.
The armchair shit cracks me up. Guys who never skied Rens can piss off. Those of us who skied multiple gens and sizes will judge. Trust me if they fail I will be down in SLC and they will have some splaining to do.
Ever heard of Occam's razor? Or Hanlon's.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
Nah. Bastard renegadeQuote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
I've just been watching this thread from the sidelines but this strikes me.
Aren't you dumping all your heavy skis and sticking with moment? they're pretty light skis depending on what vintage yours are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuse
NahQuote:
Originally Posted by phallic-menace
Eunuchgade
sorry for thread drift in advance. I never skied renegades, so I shouldn’t even be doing this in this thread, but now caught in weight web. I guess my recent actions do require explanation if I’m going to say that weight matters..Quote:
Originally Posted by nickel
I dumped a lot of heavy sticks, and yes I am keeping the lighter moments. More to do with $$ and my current predicament, than ski weight. I do enjoy light weight skis, just not for crushing inbounds crud..
Im keeping my heaviest, stiffest skis for inbounds crushing, 191 Monster and 198 Katana. 2700g/ski. I’m beginning to hoard the older, 2400g/ski bibbys. I’m customizing a heavy maple wildcat and some heavy 3D PowderBoards next year.
Dont get me wrong, the lightweight wildcat is great fun, and my initial feeling is that they are great at everything, and more stable than the 196 Governors.. but I am re-realizing as the season goes on, that I do prefer the heaviest version for skiing fast in cruddy open terrain, which is a lot of the time. I probably could have just put the shifts on the 2100g Wildcats, and bought used bibbys for inbounds. Not a big deal, cuz I can use it for other purposes, but the lighter weight is noticeable at high speeds in crud. I bought the wildcat and pbjs as easy going freestyle skis that can still be driven, and they work great for that at my weight. As I get my feet under me this season, however I do notice as my speed increases, their slightly more limited top end becomes more obvious. Its like 10%, which correlates with the amount of weight they dropped..I was going to address this in the Moment thread after I put 15 days on dem. Great ski, but the heavier version does charge a little harder in firm crud. 10% weight drop seems to affect the upper 10% of their top end.. lol trying to quantify this in nonsense, but thats how it feels
All in all, They will be sticking around, even after heavier additions. Heavier versions would be better inbounds crushers, obviously. Im 220lbs nekkid, so my point of view is gonna be completely different from most people 185lbs or under. I mainly got rid of them other skis cuz I dont need that many and need to move out. I really dont have confidence to straightline chop at 60mph anymore, unless I’m on a super stiffy and in super stiffy plug boots. But then I still do have the lightweight moments for easy going days, where I can still ski fairly hard. Thats a better quiver for me, especially now that I’m getting ready to move to SoCal in 6 months.
In a few years, when ski obsession takes over me again, i’ll be back on billy goats and Rx for sure. But the monsters and wildcats honestly serve the ends of the spectrum for me right now.
This all doesnt matter one bit if the snow is soft..or if youre a really great skier. I notice that some of the better skiers out there dont have issues with lighter and even sometimes softer skis. They have insane balance though, I dont. If the ski starts moving a bit more, I start moving a bit more.
You are not a special snow flake. JLev does not care about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
The skis are a bit softer than anyone meant them to be. They are not going to explode crippling you for life. Ski them, see if you like them. If you don't, return and order a replacement from someone else. If you do like the rens, live with the reality you are part of the "Blue Run crowd." Only thing that gets hurt is your pride because you liked the Eunuchglade.
He’s special in my mind. An athlete and a savant.
Where’s the car
Attachment 259867
Where’s the car
Attachment 259866
Light skis work fine in untracked ;)
Attachment 259868
I’m tempted to put shifts on mine.
And this thread has just drifted into
Attachment 259869
Nickel called me out like I’m a hypocrite, deservedly I guess cuz of my recent actions, and I felt I had to explain the situation a bit. Sorry for thread drift, I’m outta here.
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You know what is boneheaded?Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly
Changing the production layup AFTER spending a year designing, prototyping and testing ski redesigns and getting “final” athlete signoff.
YepQuote:
Originally Posted by dcpnz
So Jlev has hoji skied this version yet? His name is on the top sheet. What does he think of how it skis?
We actually agree on that. I thought I was clear I was not defending the basic choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpnz
In fact, this thread made me much less interested in ever buying a product from J again because it drove home to me how he is kind of careless. I cannot imagine Keith, Scott or Luke doing something like that based on how they generally conduct themselves (also building your own skis in small batches means you cannot have this exact problem). I, to the extent possible, would like to do business with people who are careful and detail oriented. So yeah, I get being frustrated.
Where I start to disagree with you and Mexican is the idea that the decision J made was based on something other than his own stupidity. His story was that he had an idea based on some research on competitive products to make the base lighter. Mexcian's story was some sort of elaborate conspiracy to turn a full rocker 122 ski into the next Soul 7. You thought he did it to cut costs which also seems a bit unlikely to me, though yours is admittedly much less stupid than Mexican's and my reaction to it is based mostly on some familiarity with plastic pricing and industrial production models.
Hahahah. Ahhhhh. ^^^This. Exactly this.^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly
I love this thread. So much drama. So much entertainment.
RENEGLADE!
Although it does make you wonder if the ski that you order from 4frnt is what will actually arrive, eventually after several emails saying they've been delayed by several months, at your door.
Think we agree 100%. Does the Reneglade/Rainbow unicornade/eunichgade make me excited to buy 4frnt skis? Nope which is a real shame. Waiting a good while until they figure shit out. If they're still around when I trust them again great.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
Do I think J is some evil mastermind out to screw mags? Nope. Some mags need to check tinfoil hat sizing.
My opinion - Even if you are doing 2000m plus days, my opinion is the 200g +/- penalty at most is harmless from most recent iteration of the last two Rens. Just get tougher or lighter.
I like the red white HOJI weight, Sweet spot for touring weight but legit ski under you.
I have a black green Ren recently mounted with shifts, after skiing that set up, I'll drag those up anything when the conditions warrant.
Is light is always right? for the purposes of what I presume is the representative crowd on this forum....
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My tinfoil hat size is XL and I need the hat shaped like a pinto bean to feel culturally comfy, holmes... :biggrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly
You ever get on TGR forums on...?
https://youtu.be/hkA9rz-1YoA
J is not an evil mastermind. He's a business man. He did not buy 4FRNT to just keep it afloat for the fringe TGR mags (*fringe = any skier who skis more than 2 weeks a year). He bought it, because he saw an opportunity to make some money. Who doesn't like money?!
Now, tell me which option sounds more reasonable for making mo' money! A) or B)
A) JLev buys 4FRNT to keep the same business model that has not to this date yielded much in profits. I believe JLev or Matt noted this in a press release detailing the sale of 4FRNT. Again, JLev buys 4FRNT to keep the same business model that doesn't make much profit. He buys it just to spend hours of his life everyday keeping 4FRNT afloat for the fringe skier population to enjoy. And in return does not want to make more money than 4FRNT has made historically.
B) JLev sees the potential in 4FRNT to make a profit. How does one make a profit selling skis for $599? Sell more units. How does one sell more units than the previous "Hardcore/Innovative" business model that targeted the fringe skier population? Sell to the majority of skiers. How does one sell to the majority? Here's one tactic: Buy a company that has a "Hardcore" reputation/image. Use the fact that most of the majority loves the idea of "Hardcore," and wants to be labeled in one way or another as "Hardcore." Then change the products to sell better with the majority. The majority gets their "Hardcore" image. 4FRNT makes more money.
Hell, man. I'd choose B) everytime. Lets make some dough! That's life. See an opportunity and take it. It would not be surprising if JLev does make 4FRNT profitable within 5 years riding the "Hardcore" image that was created from the original owner crew. I just don't see that happening by sticking with the old business model.