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To be clear the brake less version with the supplied riser and stomp pad still floats on the pins. There is no contact between the sole of the boot and the stomp pad when in ski mode. They do come in contact when in flat walk mode. Few folks on here have detailed making a higher stomp pad that does contact the boot when in ski mode but your flat walk mode setting is no longer very flat.
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If anyone has a set of the the plastic brakeless riser/stomp pad bases floating around i'd be interested in buying them off you.Quote:
Originally Posted by skisurfmirth
If you were going without the plastic riser plate under the track, I think the difference would be negligible. Either way, it would still be much flatter than the MTN with brakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by skisurfmirth
I’ll likely have some shortly. I’m planning on mounting my brake less version without the little plastic pad so I get a little less deltaQuote:
Originally Posted by soul_skier
Let me know if I can send you shipping and beer $ for them if it pans out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon3
I have some MTN’s I just moved from one set of skis to another. Seems like all of a sudden when I’m stepped into the bindings I have some play in the heel pins. They move a mm or less, but I can def feel and see it. I don’t remember that on my last set of skis these were on. Any ideas? Maybe it’s normal to develop, or did I miss some step in the heel adjustment when I remounted these? I do have the 4mm gap set correctly.
side to side or fore/aft?
If the former (and provided that the spring is not seriously worn, easy to check - just take it off and visually inspect them, alternate option to try one of the other softer/harder springs and see if the same thing happens), then the toe might be slightly crooked. Unscrew, re-torque the front two screws on the toe while having the boot clipped in front and back, remove bboot and re-torque the two back bolts on the heel.
If it is fore/aft - no idea.
Thanks. Taking a look now and I can isolate the movement to the heel tower. It’s moving up and down a bit with or without the boot in the binding. One tower has a bit more play than the other. Not sure if it’s no big deal or if I can pull the binding to see if I can tighten things down somehow. I’m guessing just go ski ‘em is the answer.
I’ve got the same on 2 pairs that I have. Seems like a tiny bit of play developed after a dozen or so days on each pair. Hasn’t gotten any worse and I added a stomp block under the heel to eliminate the play. No issues since doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
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Is there a way to change the toe springs?
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I had a similar problem (vertical play in the pins/heel risers) and tightened the hex screw underneath the heel risers to fix it. I found this breakdown helpful and just reused the same screw holes. https://www.wildsnow.com/22236/atomi...eakdown-apart/
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive
oh, nice - great find and thanks for sharing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster
What kind of springs are people running? I threw in the Expert spring, but after reading anecdotes, I should probably switch to the "Mens" or even the "Womens" U-spring. 5'10", 180 lbs, 9.5 DIN on an alpine binding. The Expert spring is a pain in the ass to rotate as well, not sure if that breaks in or not.
I’m on the Mens spring and a little bit heavier than you. I’ve never released out of it, including in situations where I probably would have released from my Crests set at 9. I’d be scared to run the Expert spring honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brasso
I've heard it best described as;
Women's Spring: Release Occasionally
Mens: Release Infrequently
Expert: Release "Never"
I run Expert Springs in my two pairs and have never released, even when I landed waaay to front seat on a ~10 cornice drop. I may swap to the Men's for my daily touring rig, but my ski mountaineering set up is keeping the expert springs.
I'm 170 expert spring.
I released once, when i hit a small rock head on, not sideways.
The heel is hard to turn, but i never do it
Which is the nice thing about this binding
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145lb. Din 11. Expert springs. Only release in forward over the bars falls. Hardest part with the stiff springs is getting heel in when in deep pow.
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I have these bindings on two sets of skis: 88 and 97 waist. Both with Men's springs. I am 6'0", 185, normally have DIN of 8 to 8.5. Expert skier, but I'm more of a finesse skier and hardly ever huck anything anymore.
I can't recall ever releasing from these bindings. Still, I recently skied a steep, no-fall zone, and the snow was quite firm and a bit icy. I meant to lock out the toe pieces, just in case, but I forgot -- no problems.
The heel piece is easy to rotate with the Men's springs on my set-ups, which is nice, because I have a lot of flat approaches in my ski touring.
Thanks for the answers. Sounds like a swap to the Men's spring is in my near future, I'm not nearly sendy enough for the Expert.
Another data point - I'm 170lbs and a relatively aggressive skier, except no big airs. I've skied the men's spring for the last four years and really can't remember if Ive ever released. I ski on soft boots (Travers).
Earlier this season, I took a pretty bad tomahawk fall and was kinda surprised they didn't release. In mid May, I took my second bad fall of the season again with no release, except this time I ruptured my ACL and had to ski out 6 miles and 5k down sans ACL.
Summer project = switch to the women's springs.
I'm a tech nerd so I often ask people about their U-spring binding, do they like them and how is the release yada yada ?
The usual answer is " I don't know cuz they never release " so it sounds to me like they are not really a " safety releasable bindings "
Next big advance ... beartrap bindings ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
... Thom
That is just flat out not true. I and many others in this thread have released several times out of U-springs. The issue is that its much harder to fine-tune the release characteristics of U-spring bindings, so you have to hope that the manufacturer's springs are close to your needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
one of us is rong cuz I'm thinking you didnt personaly talk to the same people I did
in addition to the folks on-line who just wrote that they havent come out/ got hurt not coming out
btw there is nothing to fine tune with a U-spring cuz its fixed
otoh its safer than a 3 pin binding, I've broken bones telewanking so I know how this works
This is flat out not true. Any free heel binding is much safer than a U spring binding. I've got thousands of days on tele with no injuries as undisputable truth. 😎Quote:
Originally Posted by XXX-er
there's an ^^ anecdote for ya
I got 7TM's which release after a boot-top fracture but I 99% ski fixed heel bindings that fully adjust for lateral and vertical release
cuz telemarking is stupid
How about bench testing the various springs provided by the manufacturer with your particular equipment to get a sense of how they will perform and evaluate whether the force required is within your acceptable level of risk? I admit the way they label them is not ideal, but it’s my opinion that a 150# man with a <295mm boot might be better off skiing the W spring than the M or E. Fully kitted for touring I’m 100# heavier skiing a 316mm boot and have never felt the need to go from M to E.
A softer spring wouldn't have prevented to acl tear.Quote:
Originally Posted by djhutch
Bindings cannot protect which tissue, only bike breakage.
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Meant bone breakage
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Im 175/6’3”/318mm boots on E springs. Never had them release. I have had my pair of ATK FR14’s set at 12 release a few times FWIW
U spring bindings aren’t inherently less inclined to release than any other binding, the difference is people often are using higher-release value bindings on their touring skis than they otherwise would.
AKA using the rong release value becuz we want a lighter binding or sft, so wouldn't using the rong release value make it more likely to give you an injury when you didn't come out of your binding, this is pretty simple shit, ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneke10
My point is that if I noramly ski a 7 din-like setting with a alpine binding and the U spring isnt a 7 din-like wtf other choice is there on a binding with no adjustment ?
The user MUST use a higher (or lower) release value add to that i get prerelease unless I can can independantly adj 1 more din for vertical release than for lateral
And so I would rather use a fully adjustable binding cuz even if its a little heavier I can make a vertical or Rad act almost like an alpine binding
Funky AT bindings are in fact less worse than tele but as long as you know what going on here ... giver eh
The force required to tear your ACL in the body position most tear their ACLs is REALLY low.. I think it was roughly equiv to DIN 6 IIRC. ACL tears are just part of the gig.Quote:
Originally Posted by djhutch
One more data point - 5'8" 175 lbs. running the Expert springs, alpine DIN is 12 for hard snow skis, 11 for soft snow skis. I've released exactly once when I buried my tips, and was glad I did. I suspect the release values change a bit as the springs wear in, I know it gets easier to step in as time goes by. I seldom use the flat position, but yeah you need to put a glove on reef on it to turn it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brasso
I thought was more like din 1Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
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Anecdotal "evidence" is not evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by djhutch
Well, it's a great time for having choices, and I have to confess that I've been tempted by the MTN. Then, I remember that I'm an old fart, and that I'd prefer to minimize the possibility of having to endure a long healing period.
6-8-10-12 are too coarse adjustment settings for my comfort level.
... Thom
The percentage between the numbers you mentioned is not that great. It's probably similar to what you get from release baked stamped on adjustable pin bindings.Quote:
Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un
Hell, on a pair of g3 ions the sticker that showed the release values was not glued properly and it kept moving.
And this is true for alpine bindings as well.
Unless you test the release values, you don't know.
Does it matter?
No, because the din tables have enough of a safety factor.
If you're really worried, test your bindings and test your bone density. Very easy and inexpensive to do and then you know.
In my case, even though I'm 73, my bone density is similar to a 22 year old male, so I'm not worried about using the E u spring on my MTNs, also because I'm more worried about a pre release than about falling.
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anybody know whats the din value of a meniscus or a tib or a fib ?
I'll tell you what IS high in this thread and its the bulshit value
Well, I set my release values by carpet testing and then fine tuning on the hill - usually a day riding lifts before heading out.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
Agreed, that the numbers are meaningless. I dialed in 3 pairs of ATKs this Summer, and arrived at lateral settings ranging from 8.5 to 9.5, with differences between the same pair (left and right). Boot wear? Binding differences? Beats me.
So, the MTN RVs are more like 6,7,8,9? 8,9,10,11? I find that difficult to believe. Someone's going to be way out of range at one end of the range or the other.
I don't want to be that guy (screaming that sky is falling), but at the same time, I want to present an alternative view - one that makes more sense to me but obviously not everyone
... Thom
ime the hash marks on rads and verts correlate to pretty much the DIN I would ski on alpine bindings and they do release when they should, not quite as safe as an alpine binding but close, of course they are old but still fine IMO