Wasatch Conditions 13/14

The E ridge of Superior is the ridge that climbs to the top of Superior from the east--from Cardiff, over L Superior, etc. Has always seemed like a good name to me.

The top of the S ridge of Flagstaff, Toledo Bowl, and the lookers right side of Cardiac ridge are simple terrain features and I think they are places where one can make an observation of conditions in a snowpit, or from a history of daily observations, and project it onto a larger terrain feature. I would argue that Toledo Chute, for instance, is a different story, and to a much, much larger degree, so is the S Face of Superior. In particular, the far lookers lefthand side of the upper face, is outlier terrain in my book, as it is sheltered by the massive SE ridge, meaning that especially in the coldest weeks of the year, it does not see as much sun as other terrain of a similar aspect. In my own travel around steep, E/NE facing from 9K-11K prior to this weeklong storm, I was finding some serious dog shit in between MF crusts--all the snow from our little December storms is faceted, save for the top cm or two of each storm layer. In my experience there is often faceted snow on S facing LCC terrain in thin years around the solstice, and although we rarely see human triggered slides in deep, persistent layering on much of the visible S facing terrain in LCC...yeah, I think complex E facing, with NE facing features, at 11K', is really nothing like Flagstaff and Toledo--look at a map, for starters--and 96 hours of strong winds and a week of heavy snowfall is a good nugget of information on which to make a cautious forecast for extreme terrain.

Going forward, it will be really interesting to see if anybody triggers avalanches in places like Days Fork, Cardiac Bowl, upper Kessler, etc, as we have almost four feet of snow "bridging" the sandbox; undoubtedly, people will be jumping into those places, and it may just be that four feet of snow is a pretty damn good bridge, but it also may be that there are places where the weak snow is much closer to the surface than four feet. My bet is that people get away with a lot...

Apologies for the haughty tone in regards to the snowmobilers in Logan, but the point about Suicide Chute stands; the thing is tracked out before anybody has skied anything else of a similar aspect, which, similar to the Logan accident, and to many avalanche accidents that befall people acting on an impression of caution, belies an uninformed outlook.

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Originally Posted by rog'smom

Yea those dumbass won year wasatch wonder east coast transient fuks. Right Rawwwwj.

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the ridge ascent is the way it should be done. always. why subject oneself to a large avy face from the bottom up if ya don't hafta? a skinner up the sup face is just a practice in chest beating.

and fuck you too chrissy:)

rog

Superior is kinda like El Cap. Both are 3000 ft faces that are essentially big stages for all to see. People love to sit in the meadow beneath El Cap with binoculars and armchair quarterback the climbers. Similarly, people near Alta/Bird love to bloviate and pontificate about snow conditions/skier decisions on Superior as if they're actually up there with them at that moment.

Skied grizzly gulch followed by catherines pass last night. Snow was good, moonlight was amazing, and there seemed ot be more than a couple fools out running around in it. Stoke was quite high for all involved.

I'm heading back tonight, there are a couple great powderfields in grizzly that got lit up really well by the moonliight, thinking of making my first lap around sunset, then maybe another couplelaps in the moonlight.

Anybody care to join me? You're missing out if you don't.

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Originally Posted by Mark H

Superior is kinda like El Cap. Both are 3000 ft faces that are essentially big stages for all to see. People love to sit in the meadow beneath El Cap with binoculars and armchair quarterback the climbers. Similarly, people near Alta/Bird love to bloviate and pontificate about snow conditions/skier decisions on Superior as if they're actually up there with them at that moment.

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Mark, you are a big S-face skinner, which I don't think is a bad thing in itself, but why was yesterday, the first sunny day after a big storm when the winds were still nuking, a good day to go up the south face? What is it about 5 days of 30-60+ mph W winds that makes somebody want to investigate ridgeline windslab development from below?

Personally, I think wind is one of the easiest forecast criteria to use in your favor; when it is windy, there could be windslabs, and when it is not windy, any windslabs already in place will be more managable. There are plenty of days when winds are not hammering at 11K', and on those days, I consider Superior to be a more managable place to ski. Why not just wait for one of those? It is certainly the case that winds on mt. baldy, hidden, peak, cardiff peak, and other nearby weather stations do not necessarily reflect winds on Superior at all times, but why make an assumption that they are not going to be as strong? Why choose to ascend a slope overhung by leeward starting zones, hoping to find positive stability indicators when you get near the top? Why just assume that Superior is worth checking out any day that it's sunny? Again, I don't see how any sort of clear, deliberate forecast for stable snow could go into walking up superior when publicly accessible anemometers indicate that winds are hammering.

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Originally Posted by Christopher3000

The E ridge of Superior is the ridge that climbs to the top of Superior from the east--from Cardiff, over L Superior, etc. Has always seemed like a good name to me.

I would argue that Toledo Chute, for instance, is a different story, and to a much, much larger degree, so is the S Face of Superior. In my experience there is often faceted snow on S facing LCC terrain in thin years around the solstice, and although we rarely see human triggered slides in deep, persistent layering on much of the visible S facing terrain in LCC...yeah, I think complex E facing, with NE facing features, at 11K', is really nothing like Flagstaff and Toledo--look at a map, for starters--and 96 hours of strong winds and a week of heavy snowfall is a good nugget of information on which to make a cautious forecast for extreme terrain.

Going forward, it will be really interesting to see if anybody triggers avalanches in places like Days Fork, Cardiac Bowl, upper Kessler, etc, as we have almost four feet of snow "bridging" the sandbox; My bet is that people get away with a lot...

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I call the ridge, Superior ridge, no muss no fuss.
Toledo chute may have a pocket or two otherwise not. I watched a fellow ski it the day I went up Flagstaff.
I have been in Days fork and Cardiac bowl. Upper Days has some pockets of sandboxing. Main is worse and the fingers are worse than main. Cardiac bowl had no sandboxing whatsoever(didn't make it into the chutes).
I would expect the cycle to play out the same as previous cycles this winter. A few large slides during and after the storm, pockets until adjustment occurs, not enough water weight.
Over and out.

Fascinating conversation inspired by that bold skin track and apparently great skiing on Superior yesterday. It made even this old ski bum want to go "get some." I don't remember a skin track up the south face in recent years, let alone during moderate-considerable avi forecast conditions.
Therein lies the problem: the bold advertisement for this insanity encourages more of it. Anyone on this thread has dodged the bullet many times, but hopefully we're always trying to be smarter about it. The last time I skinned up the south face was in spring corn in 1975, been using the ridge ever since. Trudging up in the middle of that exposure is literally breathtaking. Yesterday's warriors on Superior scored quite a coup, but I hope this conversation inspires much critical thinking about rolling the dice out there.

Bruce?^^^^^^^

:)

Rog

^^yeah thats what I meant.

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

Skied grizzly gulch followed by catherines pass last night. Snow was good, moonlight was amazing, and there seemed ot be more than a couple fools out running around in it. Stoke was quite high for all involved.

I'm heading back tonight, there are a couple great powderfields in grizzly that got lit up really well by the moonliight, thinking of making my first lap around sunset, then maybe another couplelaps in the moonlight.

Anybody care to join me? You're missing out if you don't.

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me and a buddy or two were thinking of heading that way tonight. prob won't be up there till 8:30 or so though.

today superior was skied out like a one hole whore house!!!!!

NE facing patsy shoulder @ 10000 ft. Dug my own pit didn't co opt any one else's data this time. 65 inch snowpack. Shovel shear gave a stubborn q2 to 3 break on the rain crust / storm snow interface about 2 feet down . Couldn't get anything to go on ct even the there was 10 inches of loose facets in the basement. Nice soft but settled pow from the top of the 29 degree slope until the exit above the houses. Yeah its not superior (admired yalls tracks this morn strong work) but its good enough for a solo tour. Mediocre is the new awesome. Damn fine weather get out there and enjoy...

Sent from my SM-T210R using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by Slaag Master

today superior was skied out like a one hole whore house!!!!!

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Very discriptive slaaag....

Sent from my SM-T210R using TGR Forums

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I initially wasn't planning on skiing from the ridge for the exact reasons you mentioned above Christopher. My friends and I were just gonna do some laps on the apron. However we noticed that there was no significant wind transport going on up high on Superior that morning despite the raging winds elsewhere. I skinned up to within a few hundred feet of the ridge and found no evidence of wind drifts so I kept going, ready to turn around at the first sign of them. How could there not be significant drifts in that area after so many days of big winds? I'm guessing it's partly because the other side of the notch on the ridge where I topped out (a few hundred feet below the true summit) is mostly cliffs and therefore has little snow for transport. It may also be because Monte Cristo shields that portion of the ridge from the brunt of the northwest flow. There wasn't even a cornice in that spot. There was only a gentle breeze on the ridge at 9:30 A.M. I could have lit a candle.... It may have been a totally different story just a little further up. This was just a classic example of how LOCAL VARIATIONS ALWAYS OCCUR.Attachment 148554

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Originally Posted by Mark H

Attachment 148553

I initially wasn't planning on skiing from the ridge for the exact reasons you mentioned above Christopher. My friends and I were just gonna do some laps on the apron. However we noticed that there was no significant wind transport going on up high on Superior that morning despite the raging winds elsewhere. I skinned up to within a few hundred feet of the ridge and found no evidence of wind drifts so I kept going, ready to turn around at the first sign of them. How could there not be significant drifts in that area after so many days of big winds? I'm guessing it's partly because the other side of the notch on the ridge where I topped out (a few hundred feet below the true summit) is mostly cliffs and therefore has little snow for transport. It may also be because Monte Cristo shields that portion of the ridge from the brunt of the northwest flow. There wasn't even a cornice in that spot. There was only a gentle breeze on the ridge at 9:30 A.M. I could have lit a candle.... It may have been a totally different story just a little further up. This was just a classic example of how LOCAL VARIATIONS ALWAYS OCCUR.Attachment 148554

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Serendipity strikes on Mt. Superior. What if you'd noticed wind transport and opted to stay on the aprons, and then myself and my five douchebag bros had dropped in above you (narrowly beating the other 30 people headed to Superior on a given powder day), or performed a cautionary ski cut like whatsisface on Mt Taylor in Idaho, only to release a class 4 slide (on a tracked-out SE facing slope) that overran a ski touring superhighway--or, in your case, a relatively small windslab that happened to smack you when you were making a transition at the top of your skintrack? I'm not necessarily saying anyone is right or wrong in the simple performance of one of these acts, but why take objective information about snow--there's lots of new snow, it may be complex, it is really windy in the Wasatch today, its really sunny in the Wasatch today, etc--and opt to go to a place where you are really not in control of much?

Well Mark, you obviously made a successful call, surprising many "experts" and getting some great skiing. Some of us are envious and remember when we might have gone for it ourselves, except now we "know better..." Snooze you lose more than ever in the Wasatch!

Believe me I was watching the east ridge very closely for any sign of people heading up. My skinner was in a different drainage than the main shot which of course usually gets hit first. For anyone to come down on top of me they would have had to scrape their way down a few hundred feet of rocks on the south ridge.

So nobody raises an eyebrow anymore when they see a skinner put straight up Tanners, Little Pine, ect, but I'm just totally insane for putting a skinner straight up Superior? Bullshit. The only reason it doesn't happen more often is because the east ridge is such a convenient and awesome route.

mark, did you have a pedometer on? that skinner must be like 10k:fm:

if ANYTHING had happened above you sympathetically, or otherwise, you weren't gonna escape anywhere fast. super nice to have it all to yerself tho. a rare treat:)

rog

dThe E ridge is convienient, awesome, and on most days, much safer than going up the face. Other south facing shots in mid-LCC get skied a lot less, obviously because they aren't visible from alta/snowbird, but also because they lack a safe route. Would you have skied little pine on Tuesday? It looked like it had good enough coverage. Obviously I am more than a little jealous, of course.

Armchair quarterbacks should never assume they have all the information--obviously, you scored some great skiing, and sure enough, your skinner was still visible yesterday afternoon: clearly not a lot of transport going on up there.

I think Wasatch skiers--I am a primary defendent in this case--are often guilty of making a terrain selection, and tailoring a personal snow and avalanche forecast to that terrain. Like, "I want to ski Superior, but I don't want to go up the ridge, so I'll go to the apron and see if the winds are actually blowing on top." Such decision making is on one hand only possible for very intelligent, experienced people--one needs to have observed a fair amount of snow and weather in the Wasatch and then crunched a bunch of recent information about snow and weather--and to reap the good results is addicting. Perhaps, in other words, some of us let a bulk of positive experiences--personal forecast verifications--cloud a more sober acknowledgement of what could happen, or of what could be different from our expectations.

I'm not saying that one shouldn't "do it that way," but I had a very close call recently doing something much more lame than skiing superior, and it has caused me to realize that sometimes I let my desire to do one thing or another inform other aspects of my decision making routine, and read the objective forecast information in a light that makes my terrain choice seem more favorable. I'm also not saying you or anyone else needs to take a step back and think about that stuff, but I have more or less been forced to, and it makes me feel lucky.

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So nobody raises an eyebrow anymore when they see a skinner put straight up Tanners, Little Pine, ect, but I'm just totally insane for putting a skinner straight up Superior? Bullshit. The only reason it doesn't happen more often is because the east ridge is such a convenient and awesome route.

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40"+ new snow. Many days of strong w nw wind. Poor snowpack structure. First sunny day.
Would you raise an eyebrow at a skinner up tanners, little pine, etc. I sure as hell would. I realize I'm a 1st post mmqbacking jong. But bad decisions with positive feedback will kill a guy if he's not careful. And I like you(we have met). So hopefully these eyebrows raised can be your negative feedback.

Many times its safer to skin/hike up what you plan to ski. why? you get to analyze the snow the whole way up. many of the major slide paths in the wasatch require one to hike directly up them to access them. In fact the east ridge route gives one very little opportunities to look at the snowpack on the way up to superior.

you know where the safest place to ski? In your office chair behind a keyboard..... most of you should stick to those slopes

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2014/0...edium=facebook

How timely!

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Originally Posted by BRUTAH

Many times its safer to skin/hike up what you plan to ski. why? you get to analyze the snow the whole way up. many of the major slide paths in the wasatch require one to hike directly up them to access them. In fact the east ridge route gives one very little opportunities to look at the snowpack on the way up to superior.

you know where the safest place to ski? In your office chair behind a keyboard..... most of you should stick to those slopes

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I wouldn't know anything about offices. Hiking up the runout of a giant avalanche path that slides regularly doesn't tell you a damn thing about whats going on in the starting zone, unless you are hiking over fresh debris. Hiking up the east ridge, on the other hand, allows you to see what has gone on in the starting zones, which is where one is most likely to trigger an avalanche, before you enter one from any direction, and get a feel for surface snow conditions, which is most important on a lot of Superior days. This is why it is generally advisable to avoid large, leeward avalanche paths on days when snow and weather variables--tons of new snow, lots of wind, etc--should indicate a cautious approach. Kicked off pocket on the east side of LSB? Maybe--but of course not DEFINITELY--its not a great day to go to Superior, even if its bluebird and its going to be really good on the apron.

A few years ago there was a powder magazine peice about some bros in Chamonix who were really getting after it on the biggest lines on Mt. Blanc, in deep powder conditions, many of which were never considered an option with fresh snow until recently. Dave Rosenbarger said something to the effect of, "55 degrees feels a lot less steep when you're nipple deep." Andrew McLean made a comment in response, either on this site, telemarktips, his site, or somewhere else, that 55 degrees feels a lot more steep when you're riding down it in an avalanches than it does when you are making cautious turns on hard snow, so you better be damn sure of your forecast, and comfortable with the outcome of a blown forecast, to be going for the Tour Ronde with three feet of fresh, or something like that.

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Originally Posted by BRUTAH

Many times its safer to skin/hike up what you plan to ski. why? you get to analyze the snow the whole way up. many of the major slide paths in the wasatch require one to hike directly up them to access them. In fact the east ridge route gives one very little opportunities to look at the snowpack on the way up to superior.

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Climb what you ski! Worked for romeo(rip) and countless others.

Rog

Pretty sure posers right about people not skiing down on him, who wants to ski through 10,000 kick turns.

^^^^^^^:D. Truth!

Rog

Thanks Mark for precipitating this lively discussion, and thanks Chris for your thoughtful rebuttals, inspiring reflection for us all.
You weren't "totally" insane, Mark, just crazy enough, a common denominator for most of us here. Life is lived most fully, closest to the edge...wishing us safe travels, and safe arrivals!

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Originally Posted by spindrift65

Pretty sure posers right about people not skiing down on him, who wants to ski through 10,000 kick turns.

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^^^^ Write on!

well put osb!!! post #3 and you're all bout tribe!!!!!

Luck or skill aside if you make that choice and get spit off you're going to look like a total douche. Especially if you get your friends killed along with you. I couldn't think of a more embarrassing way to go.

Wanted to thank Potatoeskillme and our non-mag friends for showing a couple of knuckle draggers from CA such a good time while in BCC this past week. Many-many faceshots, bowls and beers were shared, as well as traverses :fmicon:. Met so many helpful, friendly people in the skin track as well as the resorts that I am starting to think Utards aren’t all bad :wink:. Here is some stoke I put together of our trip, nothing special, just some resort skiing and super mellow meadow skipping out of Spruces. Hope you enjoy it.

What an unbelievable place...:)

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Iceman drives a Land Rover in jeans? :fmicon:
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PowerWhore7, wrong thread. Utah doesn't just have different beer laws, they also use a different vocabulary. See, in the native tongue of Utardedan, "conditions" actually means "critique the fuck out of everything somebody else does on, near, or within view of a mountain". So nobody cares how the much fun you had, you failed to note the important info, such as if everyone was setting the skinner properly with the right number of kickturns.


Nicely done, best wishes for snow in the Sierra. I love those mountains.

super stoke pow11!!!!!!!! your post certainly exceeds all the last few pages of cunt drizzle over some dood with balls doing superior!!!! visit again!!!

Lost a Hestra Guide Glove right hand brown leather touring up to Twin Lakes pass yesterday from Albion Basin lot, lemme know if any one sees it today, headed up now to check it out

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Originally Posted by PowerWhore7

Iceman drives a Land Rover in jeans? :fmicon:
http://i40.tinypic.com/mhdoc4.jpg

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wutinthehell? Not me, man.

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Originally Posted by iceman

wutinthehell? Not me, man.

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I would sue!

Collapsed the wind slab at the top, and upon close inspection discovered no slab in the gut.

Look a like a reynolds:)

Rog

good to see you gettin some in UT PW..was wondering if you were going stir crazy on the eastside ;)

time to get back to the ocean for this coming week though!

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Originally Posted by Mark H

So nobody raises an eyebrow anymore when they see a skinner put straight up Tanners, Little Pine, ect, but I'm just totally insane for putting a skinner straight up Superior?

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It's the Wasatch Sheep Mentality.........you can ONLY approach Superior from the East Ridge, exposing yourself to the oft wind loaded patch below Little Sup (I got rolled there). You are expected to put a skinner out of Days over the 40 degree limestone rock slab with faceting below, cause that's tradition, etc.

Maybe when we want to ski Red Baldy now, we should only traverse in from the east from Red Top, or wait for the heli.