Tutorial: Molding Intuition Liners

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ottime

Anyway, I know you can't get a fit without baking them, but when I did throw the Power Wrap liner in, and then my foot, I was unable to buckle the calf buckles. I could get the lower one on the first, loose, hiking latch, but the top one I was unable to latch at all.

---

Did you end up baking them? Get a good fit?

I am about to mold up two sets and have some similar issues:

1) Dalbello Lupo's with the stock ID liner. Boot fits well, 1 finger heal, demo'ed kryptons in this size and they fit great, going with Lupos for the ID liner and rubber soles. I can barely buckle the boot premolded. Liner looks like it has upper intuition and lower normal liner.... Weird.
2) Dynafit One with PW+. Boot is one size larger (as planned to avoid toe jam while skinning), trying a PW+ to fill up the space, add warmth, add stiffness, etc.... I cannot buckle the top of the boot with the liner in premolded.

Anyway - Just making sure I'm not crazy. I assume intuition liners puff up slightly and will compress to allow the boot to buckle when I mold.

Just wondering why to use this method instead of the rice method?

Great thread and great information! Thanks to all.

I just got a pair of pro tongue for Christmas. I molded them at my shop and didn't seem to have any fit problems then. First day out on them and it feels like there's a bump just below my calf. Can I safely assume that's the seam everyone is talking about? They fucking hurt. Should I just re heat them with a hairdryer?

Any tips for baking Dreamliners (MV) for Vulcans? I picked up a pair of them in the group buy, at the recommendations of a couple people and Intuition. I could barely get them into the shell uncooked. I did 1 bake so far at a shop that wasn't well set up for it (long story), and they are still pretty snug - closing the top buckle is an epic struggle. Also the included Intuition footbeds folded up a bit at the back of the heels - I'm guessing I have narrow heels? The outside of the liner doesn't look like it molded much - maybe they were using a blower heater rather than proper oven? The heel cup & achilles area looks good though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andeh

Any tips for baking Dreamliners (MV) for Vulcans? I picked up a pair of them in the group buy, at the recommendations of a couple people and Intuition. I could barely get them into the shell uncooked. I did 1 bake so far at a shop that wasn't well set up for it (long story), and they are still pretty snug - closing the top buckle is an epic struggle. Also the included Intuition footbeds folded up a bit at the back of the heels - I'm guessing I have narrow heels? The outside of the liner doesn't look like it molded much - maybe they were using a blower heater rather than proper oven? The heel cup & achilles area looks good though.

---

Probably need the low volume (LV) liner. They have directions on how to do a liner size fit on their website.

If they're 29s I'd buy them off you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by soups818

Probably need the low volume (LV) liner. They have directions on how to do a liner size fit on their website.

If they're 29s I'd buy them off you.

---

Ugg. They specifically recommended the MV to me. Going by the liner size fit on the website too, I should be MV. They're 27s (going into a 27.5 shell) unfortunately.

The whole reason I got them was my ProTours (which fit like slippers) that were baked in my TLTs slide around a bit inside the Vulcans due to difference in shell volume, so I was wary of getting too small a volume.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andeh

Ugg. They specifically recommended the MV to me. Going by the liner size fit on the website too, I should be MV. They're 27s (going into a 27.5 shell) unfortunately.

The whole reason I got them was my ProTours (which fit like slippers) that were baked in my TLTs slide around a bit inside the Vulcans due to difference in shell volume, so I was wary of getting too small a volume.

---

IDK it was just a thought. If they recommended them to you not sure if you can contact them. All I know is no way my MV powerwraps fit into my Titans and I've never seen/tried any of the LV's or tried Vulcans.

Maybe someone else can chime in that has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andeh

Any tips for baking Dreamliners (MV) for Vulcans? I picked up a pair of them in the group buy, at the recommendations of a couple people and Intuition. I could barely get them into the shell uncooked. I did 1 bake so far at a shop that wasn't well set up for it (long story), and they are still pretty snug - closing the top buckle is an epic struggle. Also the included Intuition footbeds folded up a bit at the back of the heels - I'm guessing I have narrow heels? The outside of the liner doesn't look like it molded much - maybe they were using a blower heater rather than proper oven? The heel cup & achilles area looks good though.

---

If you want to recook and DIY, this process worked for me use a conventional oven:

Heating and Molding Intuition Ski Boot Liners

http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...--1024x768.jpgTrue to DIYer form, trial and error (sometimes lots of errors) lead to a better understanding of ‘do’s and don’ts’. Molding Intuition boot liners was not excepted. After reading and viewing Intuition, Scarpa, SVST and DIY techniques and ideas, we set out to experiment with new Intuition Pro Tour liners from Scarpa Maestrale AT boots to discover and illustrate the pitfalls of home oven backing vs heat gun hot air approaches. A ‘modified conventional oven boot liner baking’ approach appears to be a reliable and safe for good boot to foot fitting. Especially for ovens without enough height to stand the liners on their bottoms.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...er-300x400.jpgConventional Oven Baking: The first attempt was to place a liner on it’s side, in a 240° non-convection oven on wood supports instead of directly on the oven racks. After 5 minutes the oven, which was on, scorched and wrinkled the side of the liner where it was in contact with the wood. Big mistake and bummer! Though unsightly, functionally the liner is fine. Time will tell how long this remains true. The wood conducted high heat too readily from the concentrated heat from the lower baking element. With this older oven, the temperature of the elements probably need to far exceed the target oven temperature to generate enough heat for the whole oven to reach and maintain the 240°. A reasonable assumption is that a convention oven would be superior to conventional ovens.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...es-300x400.jpgHot Air Gun: The second test was to keep the liners in the shell and utilize a digital heat gun with high output and reliable temperature control for 12 minutes to assimilate an Intuition blower heater. Care was made to make sure the nozzle did not touch the interior of the liner while driving heat to the toe area. It is desirable option since it reduces steps, time and needed care and effort to place a floppy, hot liner into difficult boot shells. This straight forward approach achieved an OK fit, but the exterior of the boot remained cold and did not mold to the shell. For many, this technique may be more than acceptable for basic boot fitting. It also could be utilized for minor spot heating and tweaks. For instance, if the toes fit well, but there is a small issue around the instep, the toe area could be stuffed with a sock or other insulating area, to focus the heat only on the problem area. Additionally, a longer heat application may provide better results.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...un-400x300.jpgThe liner on the left was baked in an oven, while the one on the right was heated with a heat gun. Note that the heat gun approach had no effect on the liner’s exterior.
Hot Rice: Similar to the heat gun approach with liners in boots, placing rice in an old sock and microwaving to achieve desired heat is an option (though not tested) that may be more desirable and convenient. Make sure to get the rice all the way into the toe area in the liner.
Hot Water: Boiling water in a collapsible water bottle can also provide lower temperature heat for minor adjustments, but probably is not the best option for fully heating the liner’s interior for proper molding.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...es-400x300.jpgModified Conventional oven boot liner baking: As noted previously, it appears that a conventional oven’s heating element produces higher heat than which is desirable and practical to avoid liner damage and even heating inside and out. By adding mass to the equation, a more controllable and even temperature can be maintain for the time frame needed. Four, 6 x 6x 3/8″ ceramic tiles provided sufficient mass to keep the oven temperature 240° for 12 minutes in our tests after the oven was turned off to avoid high heat issues. (Rubber ‘pads’ where placed on the tiles to avoid direct contact with the liners as a precaution.) Though the 12 minutes was a little arbitrary of a time frame, it did appear to be sufficient for our molding purposes. Longer or shorter may be fine for others.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...ed-400x300.jpgBasic Liner Molding Steps: While the liners were heated, 1/8″, adhesive backed boot fitting pads were cut to allow more room at known pressure points. This was coupled with toe caps and a thin sock.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...ck-300x400.jpgIf a foot bed was desired, it could also be placed on the foot before putting on the sock. In the interest of gram counting, the foot bed was omitted for this round to also see how well the Intuition bottoms support the foot on their own. Silicone spray was used to lubricated the shell interiors.
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...ed-300x400.jpgAfter the timer for the baking liner chimed, placing the sock with pad(s), foot bed and toe cap was placed in the liner, before being placed in the shell, while pulling upward on the liner multiple times. (See 1st image.)
http://www.slidewright.com/wp-conten...es-300x400.jpgAfter lightly buckling the boot, knocking the boot heel helps to set the heel into the liner. Place the toe on a board and stand on the boot in a neutral position for ten minutes.
Afterwards, remove the foot from the boot. Take out the pad, caps and foot bed (if used) from the sock. Again, if used, place the foot bed in the liner after it is placed in the shell. Test the fit of boot and tweak as needed.

Has anyone used kind of a combo method, heating the liner up a bit in the oven so the outside gets warm too, putting it in the boot, this is obviously hard if you heat it too much, then putting the heated rice in?

Seems like it would have many of the advantages of the rice method while getting the outside of the liner to mold to the boot a bit? Thoughts?

I prefer the factory outlet method where I buy them at intuition in vangroovy where I can try on any liner and have the pro's do the work perfectly ...anybody who gets to Vancover should do this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by el duderino

There's another thread specific to the boiling water method,

---

Is that thread still around?
I got a great mold using the oven at 220 for 10 minutes.
But not enough toe box as per frequent results.

Since this is closed cell foam, can you just dip the toes in boiling water with no bag and spot melt them that way, or will they absorb water anyway?

I've done mine several times in a conventional oven (I have a convection oven but the lowest setting with the fan on is ~320F). I set it to 200F now, but I used to do 220F. I think using the liners may have shrunk a little at the higher temperature, so I tried 200F and it's been fine. I've done one pair of liners probably four times, though I have three pairs in total.

1. I found I have to stick cotton balls between my toes and tape up the whole forefoot, otherwise my toes compress together while fitting the liner and I end up with too little space up there. I also use the intuition-provided toe caps and the chopped off toe from some old thick wool hiking socks. With all of this padding the room around my toes while skiing is glorious.

2. I also use cotton balls and medical tape to add padding to hot spot areas instead of special-purpose foam. For me most of that is put at the metatarsal and the sixth toe areas.

3. You said to buckle your boots lightly when fitting, but that's only if you want the liner to take up more space (loose shell fit). I crank mine almost to max because I want the liners to be more compressed due to a tighter shell fit and because I have foot beds taking up space.

4. Don't pull your liners up by the pull tabs when they're hot. I have ripped the pull tabs out of two pairs since I didn't learn the first time. I actually use pliers now, since I want to really yank on them to both reduce creases and folds in the liners and get as much material out of the lower shell (same reason as why I buckle super tight).

5. Be super careful with the tongue if your liner has one. I have yet to mold a pair of liners and be happy with the way the tongue sits. I've had the edges of the tongue crease up, which is not good. I've had the tongue misaligned (not a problem, maybe even good, but it looks weird), and I've had the tongue start inside near the toes and then pop out near the instep and then back in at the shin. I think I should have used the laces while molding (I hate them while skiing) but I've yet to actually try that.

great info!

Prior to turning on your over, remove the rack. Then place it in the over just as you put the liners in - the rack won't heat up enough during the time to damage your liners.

I've done a bunch of liners using the home oven method and it works well.

with the oven method just put a piece of ply wood on the rack and especialy with old stoves it might be a good idea to buy an oven thermometer ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXX-er

I prefer the factory outlet method where I buy them at intuition in vangroovy where I can try on any liner and have the pro's do the work perfectly ...anybody who gets to Vancover should do this

---

I just saw this, but yeah,this is the way to do it. Back in 07 a group of us did this and tried a bunch of liners we didn't even know existed, I ended up in powerwraps which I use in every boot to this day and my girl gt a prototype luxury liner. Everyone in the shop was great to work with and cool peeps.

For me its a 13 hr drive to Vangroovy or I just found that flying thru YVR on the layover its real easy to e-mail ahead for an appointment, take the skytrain rapid transit into town and git er done right which i did last week, Tom suggested my liners weren't actualy worn out in fact he would rather just recook with all the ladders cranked... I got outa there for 50$ instead of 300

not only do they have all the styles/sizes/liners nobody has heard of, a couple of years ago I did see them pull out some factory seconds

re: boiling
Easy enough to put the toe in a plastic bag, so I went that route. Wasn't sure about absorption, but wasn't sure if the seams were water tight and did not want water on inside.
Boiling water is not quite as hot, but it softened up nice. The updraft did soften the instep area, but left the perfect heel I had formed previously alone.

So I fashioned a toe cap out of an inner tube and some folded plastic shopping bags,

Boiled
Shoved footbed
Shoved and packed toe cap
Shoved into shell
Shoved foot into liner
Nice new toe wiggle room/airspace.

Hi there!

As i'm looking for new, downsized ski boots i realised thah my left's feet last sizes 94-95mm and 98-99 for the right's one.
The ski boots (allmost race models) that could match to my left feet, needs a lot of modifications to the right feet.
Could be intuition liners a solution for my problem, by choosing a ski boot at 97-98 mm?
What is your opinion?
Thank you

So I've read a bunch of intuition talk and have not seen any chatter about forward lean. Does the power wrap decrease forward lean?
The tongue of my stock Mercury liner is thicker than one layer of power wrap, but I don't think it is thinner than both layers.

Looking to mold luxury liners in a Cochise pro 130....
Thinking of a hybrid plan, as the shell is pretty snug for the liner.
Heat the shell as well with boiling method , when shell is nice and warm, place liner in and go either rice route or oven bake.

If the boot is prewarmed, makes sense that the liner will absorb some heat from the outside, while the rice ( maybe) warms it from the inside.

Am I over thinking? The Dreamliner apparently is one of the easier ones to mold with lower temps ( also read your foot heat will do it too)
Thoughts?

Hey

I have pair BD Custom tele boots and i need to but my new palau liners in owen to make them. But one question if i wanna those in tight fit shall i buckle those lose or tigh.

bump for the new kids ...

quick question about the Intuition liner:

How much can the foam be compressed?

I have to decide between two shoes, one of which has Intuition liners, while the other one has a thinner Dynashape liner. The shell is exactly the same, but the Dynashape liner is thinner (especially in the sixth toe region, where it only has a thin layer of thinsulate) and fits almost perfect, but I feel like over time it will likely become wider, which I really don't want.
The Intuition liner is bit to tight in the Toe and sixth toe area, but fut feels stiffer and at least just as good on the rest of the foot.
Do you have experience in how thin I can mold the Intuition liner?

Bonus question:
When I wear the shoe it makes a horrible squeaking noise. Any idea how to get rid of that?

cheers

I am about to mold the MV Luxury liners in a VERY tight shell. I tried getting the unheated liner in the shell a few times. It's very difficult to get the liner in, even with the shells warmed up and spread way open. I am using a cut up bottle as a shoe horn. I pretty much have to stomp on the liner to get it in. Considering I read the liners are soft when heated, it does not seem to be a good idea to use then oven technique if they are that tight. Right? Maybe I should do the rice first then, the oven if it's necessary.

Or what about sticking the whole boot in the oven at 220? I am molding these for my beasts, but I still have the old khion shells.

I'm selling a pair of Pro Wraps brand new size 28 for $120 http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...New-Denver-120

Wanted to add something here (apologies if it's already been gone over). I've molded a lot of liners (for myself and for my wife) - power wraps, luxuries, deelux, old raichles, and intuition alpines. I really got my technique dialed for power wraps which I've done about a dozen times (I own 3 pair). but when I tried to mold a pair of Alpines (I wanted a softer pair for bump skiing) I found that I pretty much had to scrap everything I knew about power wraps and start all over again. The Alpines behaved much differently (won't bore you with the details unless you want to hear). I got lucky when I molded the Luxury liners for my wife - she loved them first try.

Point I'm making for any new boot liner molders is that the advice you are getting on this thread might be very good but not necessarily cross-compatible among different liner models. Just a heads-up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daught

Maybe I should do the rice first then, the oven if it's necessary.

---

Give that a shot, but I bet you end up doing the oven. Pulling up all around on the liner helps avoid wrinkles.

Quote:

---

Or what about sticking the whole boot in the oven at 220?.

---

I wouldn't do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daught

I am about to mold the MV Luxury liners in a VERY tight shell. I tried getting the unheated liner in the shell a few times. It's very difficult to get the liner in, even with the shells warmed up and spread way open. I am using a cut up bottle as a shoe horn. I pretty much have to stomp on the liner to get it in. Considering I read the liners are soft when heated, it does not seem to be a good idea to use then oven technique if they are that tight. Right? Maybe I should do the rice first then, the oven if it's necessary.

Or what about sticking the whole boot in the oven at 220? I am molding these for my beasts, but I still have the old khion shells.

---

Stick the liner in a plastic grocery bag after heating to aid in putting it in the shell. As Meadow Skipper said do not put whole boot in oven. But if you do, please update on how that went.

I put the liners in some silnylon VB socks. Still stupid hard to shove in the boot. Wouldn't grocery bags put small creases on the liners?

What would happen to the shells if I baked them? As long as I don't pull out a blob of plastic or burned plastic I don't care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daught

I put the liners in some silnylon VB socks. Still stupid hard to shove in the boot. Wouldn't grocery bags put small creases on the liners?

What would happen to the shells if I baked them? As long as I don't pull out a blob of plastic or burned plastic I don't care.

---

No on creases and it will be easier to work them in when pliable. As I said post up after shoving whole boot in oven so we can answer your question. Do it for the good of all!!!

(p.s. stop worrying so much, keep the temp at 230 for 10 mins and you will be fine)

I heated the pebax khions to 320F and they were fine. They can take the intuition molding temp. Now question is, how long to keep the liners plus boots in the oven? The shells slow the heat transfer to the liners. Maybe 15 min? What is the internal molding temp of the liners?

Intuition says the molding temp is 65C to 75C.

As others have noted, 200 F is plenty for a conventional oven. Around 5-7 minutes, right on the rack. They will get softer if you leave them in longer but this makes them harder to put in, and seat properly in a boot, and I don't believe it gives any additional benefit.

I am heating them up in the boot. Grabbing beer now stand by.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daught

Intuition says the molding temp is 65C to 75C.

---

Not sure where you saw that? Not nearly hot enough, < 119C is what I have read.

That's the internal liner temp. Straight from intuition. Your feet would burn at 120c. I put the boots and liners in at 100 and they only reached 55c. Reheating again at 140.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daught

That's the internal liner temp. Straight from intuition. Your feet would burn at 120c. I put the boots and liners in at 100 and they only reached 55c. Reheating again at 140.

---

You are making this waaaay too complicated. I grabbed mine with my bare hands after 10 mins 230F (on cookie sheet under foil).

Pop them in, pull up on liners to eliminate wrinkles, buckle, toe of boot on 2x4, wait 8 - 10 minutes, done.

"3:Temperature Gauge: Digital LED displays
Top display box is actual temperature, bottom display box is desired temperature (Celsius).


When heat tube machine is on, temperature controller shows a set temperature of 119 C, and can be adjusted by pressing the “SET” button. Initially the far right digit will flash, and can be adjusted using up and down arrows. The “<” button moves indicator to change each digit as needed. When desired temperature appears in LED, press “SET” button again to complete temperature adjustment.


Temperature readout on top LED screen will display a varied temperature (up and down) from set temperature (example: if temperature is set at 120 C, display will fluctuate between 114-124 in order to maintain target temperature).


Shops located at higher altitudes (over 3000m/10,000 ft) may require longer heating times for optimum fitting results."