Interresting post on Silverton (x-post)

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Originally Posted by hutash

This whole argument boils down to,"were the closed areas adequately marked." If yes, the citation is well deserved, if not then he should get off and SM should improve their signs. I am sure there was "attitude" on both sides, but that is not really the issue. From the pictures so far posted, I would favor SM, since the boundary appears well marked.

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if the area is marked on a map and the skiers were made aware of the closed areas prior to heading out, its the skiers responsibility to make sure they dont head into those closed areas. thats what unguided means. unguided skiing doesnt mean free for all. obviously these skiers lack the ability to guide themsleves. if its not marked and your unsure, give patrol a quick call on your radio and ASK. most patrollers are more than happy to answer questions like that. the whole argument really boils down to the guy with the permit and the liability enforces the rules.

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Originally Posted by Silverton Mt

3. The only markings on the mountain indicate “CLOSED” areas.

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In other words, if you see ANY MARKINGS AT ALL, you are at a closed area. It's totally irrelevant whether or not there was a sign saying closed on every 5th boo vs. every 19th boo. The fact that there were bamboo markings of any kind is more than enough.

ANY MARKINGS AT ALL.

Really, how much clearer can this be? Let's read it again, just to be sure!

"The ONLY markings on the mountain indicate CLOSED areas."

So, I think that pretty much settles the basis for this entire discussion.

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Originally Posted by Silverton Mt

4. ...WE ARE REQUIRED TO CALL THE SHERIFF FOR ANY POACHING INFRACTIONS...

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And that pretty much settles the outcome. Again, no judgement; just the rules.

Like it or not, SM did exactly what they said they'd do, and they said clearly what they'd do at the outset.
If the skiers in question didn't like the rules of the game, they should have gone somewhere else.

Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Silverton Mt

Here is a copy of the info sheet each skier is supposed to read and acknowledge before getting a lift ticket. 3. The only markings on the mountain indicate “CLOSED” areas.
4. Red/Orange poles and/or “CLOSED” signs or ropes are used to define “CLOSED” areas. There is a zero tolerance policy for any poaching, rope ducking, or entering into “CLOSED” areas and a $1,000 fine. WE ARE REQUIRED TO CALL THE SHERIFF FOR ANY POACHING INFRACTIONS. Help us keep it the mountain open and safe.
5. Only skiers accompanied by a Silverton Mountain guide may enter “CLOSED” areas, or leave the ski area boundary, or duck ropes. If you see skiers entering a “CLOSED” area that are not with a Silverton Mountain guide call them out. Guides can be hired at the base for $30 a run.
6. If it appears to be “CLOSED”, it is. The whole run or zone, top to bottom. Looking for a sneak route into a closed area will not fly here. We can't keep the mountain open for unguided skiing if people poach.

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Looks clear cut to me - you signed that you acknowledged the rules - specifically "Red/Orange poles and/or “CLOSED” signs or ropes are used to define “CLOSED” areas."

Having read that you should realize that any poles or signs are an indicator the terrain is closed and if you dont realize that its your fuck up b/c you either didnt read the form (never sign anything without reading it) or more likely simply chose to ignore the closure to nab some additional terrain.

Aaron - I do think you should just set up ropes on hard boundaries cause there are simply too many idiots and this will continue to be a pain in your ass.

sheesh.. this whole thing would never have happened if more people just voted libertarian.

-steve

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Originally Posted by steve

sheesh.. this whole thing would never have happened if more people just voted libertarian.

-steve

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True true, cause then there would be no publicly owned land to worry about in the first place.

This thread is....DUMB.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Entering an area marked closed - no matter what is on the other side - is illegal in California.
http://www.earnyourturns.com/article...p?articleID=38
The article discusses Colorado law as well.

Alternatively you can read the Colorado ski safety act:
http://www.dora.state.co.us/tramway/SkiSafetyAct.pdf
All that is legally required to designate a closed trail is a sign.
Violating that is a petty offense - a fine of not more than $1,000 and NO JAIL TIME

gonehuckin - just stop. please.

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Good stuff. On the one hand Silverton's rules sheet should have been followed. On the other hand Silverton's pictured sign certainly didn't meet all the state requirements, which were extremely simple.

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Originally Posted by EZB

On the other hand Silverton's pictured sign certainly didn't meet all the state requirements

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how do you figure that? A bamboo pole that says "closed" isn't a sign?

I still don't understand why putting up rope is so tough. I'm sure the BLM frowns on people going into closed areas whether Silverton has met their closure criteria or not. It would lessen the amount of people entering those areas, thus having a positive effect on the BLMs opinion of Silverton....not to mention it's pretty hard to duck a rope and lie about it.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

I still don't understand why putting up rope is so tough. I'm sure the BLM frowns on people going into closed areas whether Silverton has met their closure criteria or not. It would lessen the amount of people entering those areas, thus having a positive effect on the BLMs opinion of Silverton....not to mention it's pretty hard to duck a rope and lie about it.

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Well one thing, If this area is where I think it is, I think it is heavilly prone to avy activity. So it would prolly end up in a tangled wad at the bottom quite often.

Edit to add:
I think it's the left side of this pic.
http://www.silvertonmountain.com/alb.../aad.sized.jpg

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

....not to mention it's pretty hard to duck a rope and lie about it.

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Yep, I learned that the hard way at Loveland last week. :nonono2:

I stand corrected, my bad.

I e-mailed Aaron to tell him about Mtn. Buzz post right after it was posted. He chose to reply here instead. Makes me wonder.

As for my experience there. Rode 1 day with a buddy who is also a guide. He did his best for us. We had a pretty strong group and Aaron dropped 2 other into our posse. They were not up to speed. Our guide took us to great places, only to be radioed that it was now closed. Also got in trouble for taking us someplace close to an area that Aaron was "Saving" for a photo shoot. We did not even touch said area, but our guide got an earfull for even being in the general area. I'll stick to my sled, my snow shoes and Snowmass for uphill travel. To bad a great idea has to be Bro-bra'd out. I do like the bar at the bottom. SKA Brewing Rocks.

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Originally Posted by addicted2coldsmoke

I work with the Forest Service for a certain company's public land uses.

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Transparency is a bitch eh? In case you didn't get the memo the internet is the real world. It's okay to tell us who you work for.

In all fairness most of us are dentists.

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Originally Posted by brendodendo

SKA Brewing Rocks.

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quoted for emphasis

I just finished this whole thing, and I have a few things to say.

Fuck these whiners, the area is clearly marked, I am sure you were told to really read the waiver and rule sheet you were given.

Silverton is a special place and the folks who are posting against Silverton Mountain are the same full of themselves Colorado folks who make me want to be back to Montana sometimes. How can you dis something that is trying to be real, how can you get so pissed when they follow BLM rules and regs especially the first spring they have ever done unguided skiing. I know how I am coming off, but all of the letters written by the perps in this incident are full of anger, opinion, insults, and whining. (never mind the fact that the photo you posted makes you guilty as charged)

Finally take your Butte and shove it up your ass (it means nothing you are lucky to have snow!!), and as far as what kind of avalanche danger a guide puts him or herself in on their off time is up to them. Any professional can put themselves in the danger zone on their own time and then reel it in when they are working with clients. Your arguments are bullshit and it is incredibly sad to see people sandbagging this endeavor when it is the first real oportunity for a stateside resort to accomadate advanced skiers and boarders in this manner. (by the way this manner requires a bit more caution and attention to detail than some folks seem to be used to)

I know that Silverton has had and will have growing pains, but you people who think you are so bad ass because you ski the Butte or whatever it is you "locals" like to call it can kiss my ass because I want Silverton to succeed and be in my neck of the woods for years to come, so pay your $30 bucks, admit you made a mistake and stay in the Butte your just not needed down here. :the_finge

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Originally Posted by brendodendo

SKA Brewing Rocks.

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And again.

Granpa, right on.

I skied Silverton last thursday and it was great, if a little thin. Everyone was friendly, Aaron even joked with my buddy when he asked him to corral his dog in the base area, "I guess you didn't didn't get the memo on that."

I know a few of the guys that work there but most don't know me so I'm not talkin about the "bro program" here. The rules were straight forward, we were pointed in the right direction and everything was cool. If you get into trouble up there it's either because you did something wrong intentionally, or because you're a fucking moron who shouldn't be up there unsupervised anyway.

Sounds like maybe the latter for these jackasses from "the Butte". I speculate that these idiots moved to CB two years ago from the midwest and are now "locals" and "experienced big mountain riders" and everything else that's cool. How often do you hear a truly experienced big mountain rider brag about it, or complain about well established boundary policies? You know the rules and you deal with them. I f you break 'em and caught, you suck it up.

That whole letter had a juvenile, whiny bitch attitude and the guy didn't even know a "shoot" is really a chute.

Morons.

You gotta take the good with the bad at Silverton and play by the rules. I think it's pretty sweet, for what it is, and they'll still get my money a few times a year.

Some of us here at JTW don’t know much about the boundary jumping issue, but we did get a kick-ass fall tour from Aaron. We took a couple pick-up trucks up the “road” to the top of the backside of Silverton. It looks like British Columbia back there, the mountains are massive. We were standing on the shores of Aaron’s own alpine lake (lucky bastard) looking up and assessing the avalanche potential for some testing, and brother you could bring down some big slides back there. Aaron told us about a slide or two he had witnessed back there and they sure sounded like monster class 3 avalanches to us. Bottom line, it looked like extremely serious skier territory only.

Haha this whole thing is for fucking thirty dollars on a possible 1000 fine. I would love to be there in court when you present your pictures and give them that civil rights violationesqe bullshit you threw up a few pages back.

My legal experiance is limited (three years) but the dudes who take a real small thing that the court is really trying to help you out on and make it a huge deal and an all around waste of time get fucked in the ass. Be smart pay your thirty bucks and remember next time to try to be more careful.

I've been away, so I missed all of this; I'm really glad that it's come
back up.

My own opinion on the OPs situation is that, if he's still thinking that
he's somehow been wronged, then perhaps he actually is as moronic as he's
being accused of here. That means that no amount of explaining can help
him. QED.

However, there's another thing that I thought about during all of the
discussion:

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Originally Posted by jtwassoc

It looks like British Columbia back there, the
mountains are massive.

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Regardless of what folks think of the management style of Silverton
Mountain, there are some inescapable facts that we should be thanking them
for. First, they have been the source of a mini-revival of the Silverton
area. Since the mining thing went to caca, that place has been
struggling. It's nice to see that there is a possible life to be had for
those who are burly enough in both mind and spirit to try to live there.

Second, and this cannot be over-emphasized, the existence of Silverton
Mountain means that Cement Creek, a canyon that is rife with named,
serious avy paths is plowed and better avy controlled. This means that
getting to any of a number of the Silverton area's killer stashes is both
feasible and safer now. This is true regardless of whether or not you
want to do business with Silverton Mountain.

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Originally Posted by jtwassoc

Bottom line, it looked like extremely serious
skier territory only.

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There is plenty of non-extreme terrain in the Cement Creek drainage. All
you have to do is get some maps, put in some time, and use your head; you
will discover enough of it to keep you happy.

Thank you Silverton Mountain, for all you've done for the area, and for
all you've done for bc skiers in Southwestern CO!

cheers,
john