Kerry sex scandal. (NSR)

Viva, it did seem to me that your point was subtler than at first sight. This is why I said what I was arguing against may not actually be your position. It's still the position that some people take, and on a thread about politics, I felt entitled to comment. For instance, I don't agree with Tippster. Communism billed itself as a theory by which to organise a society, not a small commune. At least since it started to become fashionable as a political theory. A few people agreeing, for whatever reasons, to share/be equal etc are not a satisfactory model for a society. Just like a family isn't. (And if I refused to see Bush or Blair or Chirac etc as my dad with the right to ground me, I don't think I should be considered evil).

As for the country I'm from, interesting coincidence!;) no pow/refuge parents here, though. I got out after the prison gates were taken down.

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Originally posted by 1080Rider
Burrito's are for commie pinko's, your a fag for likeing burrito's. I bet you supported Nixon, he loved burrito's. :D

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The apostraphe S always gives me away...so stupid!;)

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
dex, for the love of god can we please drop the AWOL shit. The DOD released his records and they again show no base for this accusation.

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No, the records show nothing of the sort. In fact, they confirm a gap of nearly a year, not to mention the mysterious refusal to take a physical, nearly unheard of for an aviator.

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Originally posted by 1080Rider
Again, all you argue is politics.

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Huh, I thought that's what we were talking about.

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[QB]You don't like the shit a converative president does IN THE LINE OF HIS JOB. This whole thread is about the way a person holds themself as a person and their FITNESS TO SERVE AS PRESIDENT.

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[/B]

So getting a favor from an intern affects one's fitness to serve as president? How 'bout being AWOL from the National Guard that daddy got you into? How 'bout DWI convictions? How 'bout an old coke habit? How about manipulating intelligence and lying to the American public, lawmakers, and the world?I guess those are different.

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Its funny you call me uneducated on the matter yet can't understand the difference. I know what the fuck I'm talkin' about.

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If you say so.

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What I don't do is cruise the internet for 5 hrs. a day building my house of cards against your party to expose it as a bunch of money grubbing fascists (but that's because I'd just find articles proving that your party are a bunch of panty-waists who want everyone to feel good, do whatever they want whenever they want, balloon the federal govt by making new programs to monitor the stool samples of baby's who were born to crack addicts then another program to study why american society made these poor people take crack, and also articles to prove that most liberals have the morals of a used car salesman). [side note, this just in- Communism doesn't work, when will you liberals understand that] But, you see, I don't waste my time w/ that bullshit. That's why I said I don't pay attention to the news.

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Which is also why you're poorly informed and not really fit to argue what you're trying to argue.

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I'm not supporting bush if he lied to start this war. Like I said EARLIER he gets what he deserves if that's the case. I do think Hussein needed to be taken out but YOUR president was too much of a pussie to do ANYTHING while in office. That asshole sat on the fence so long he's still got a fence post stuck up his ass, or is that a cigar.

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Ha, ha. No, Clinton just didn't need to start a war to boost his popularity.

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Bottom line, you take to insulting me when I tell you my side, so go blow a goat. You don't like how I think but sooner or later you'll figure it out. Like I've said many times, you're lucky because in America everyone has the right to be wrong.

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If being American is about being wrong, you're really, really American. Maybe when you start to follow events and understand things you'll be the one who'll figure it out.

edit: to fix format

Regarding George Will... *shaking my head*... I can't believe that fucker actually had the nerve to equate the Sierra Club with the Oil Lobby... now that's toeing the party line! 1080 - take note.

Good Boy, George! Now SIT!...Lie down...Roll over... Good Lapdog!

A bumpersticker I saw yesterday sums up my position:

Clinton Lied and Nobody Died

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Originally posted by Tippster
Regarding George Will... *shaking my head*... I can't believe that fucker actually had the nerve to equate the Sierra Club with the Oil Lobby... now that's toeing the party line! 1080 - take note.

Good Boy, George! Now SIT!...Lie down...Roll over... Good Lapdog!

A bumpersticker I saw yesterday sums up my position:

Clinton Lied and Nobody Died

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You're right, the oil lobby has a long history of giving monies to terrorist groups. He was making a point that both are special interests and that disparaging either violates each of the respective group's free speech.

"A bumpersticker I saw yesterday sums up my position"

no comment needed.

Ok. I have a way we can settle all of this. It is the perfect way to choose the next President.

We take GW, and Kerry to Aspen Highlands. Make them hike Highland bowl. And then we judge them on the line they take, fluidity etc. The winner is President.

And just so it stays non baised so the judges can't tell which is who. There will be 10 different fartbags in a box. When they get to the top they pick the fartbag that they will wear with a blindfolded draw(only one person will know who is which skier. John McCain will be incharge of the fartbag box). They will wear identical helmit's (with cam), boots, goggles, gloves, poles, and face mask,. They will just go down as skier 1, and skier2 by another random draw to see who goes first. Winner becomes President. Nes pas:cool:

Is this simple enough for you Dex???



In recent weeks, Turnipseed has found himself in the middle of a battle in which Democrats have called the president a "deserter" who went "AWOL" for an entire year during his time in the Air National Guard. When Democrats made those accusations — amplified by extensive press coverage — the White House was slow to fight back, insisting that the issue, which came up in the 2000 campaign, was closed and did not merit a response. It was only after NBC's Tim Russert brought the story up during a one-hour interview with the president on February 8 that the White House changed course and released records of the president's Guard service.

Those records have not quieted the most determined of the president's enemies — no one who watches the Democratic opposition really believed they would — but they do make a strong case that Bush fulfilled his duties and met the requirements for Air National Guard officers during his service from 1968 to 1973. A look at those records, along with interviews with people who knew Bush at the time, suggests that after all the shouting is over, and some of the basic facts become known, this latest line of attack on the president will come to nothing.


FOUR YEARS OF FLYING
The controversy over Bush's service centers on what his critics call "the period in question," that is, the time from May 1972 until May 1973. What is not mentioned as often is that that period was in fact Bush's fifth year in the Guard, one that followed four years of often intense service.

Bush joined in May 1968. He went through six weeks of basic training — a full-time job — at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Tex. Then he underwent 53 weeks of flight training — again, full time — at Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta, Ga. Then he underwent 21 weeks of fighter interceptor training — full time — at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. Counting other, shorter, postings in between, by the end of his training period Bush had served two years on active duty.

Certified to fly the F-102 fighter plane, Bush then began a period of frequent — usually weekly — flying. The F-102 was designed to shoot down other fighter planes, and the missions Bush flew were training flights, mostly over the Gulf of Mexico and often at night, in which pilots took turns being the predator and the prey."If you're going to practice how to shoot down another airplane, then you have to have another airplane up there to work on," recalls retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971. "He'd be the target for the first half of the mission, and then we'd switch."

During that period Bush's superiors gave him consistently high ratings as a pilot. "Lt. Bush is an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer," wrote one in a 1972 evaluation. Another evaluation, in 1971, called Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further." And a third rating, in 1970, said Bush "clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot" and was also "a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership."

All that flying involved quite a bit of work. "Being a pilot is more than just a monthly appearance," says Bob Harmon, a former Guard pilot who was a member of Bush's group in 1971 and 1972. "You cannot maintain your currency by doing just one drill a month. He was flying once or twice a week during that time, from May of 1971 until May of 1972." While the work was certainly not as dangerous as fighting in the jungles of Vietnam, it wasn't exactly safe, either. Harmon remembers a half-dozen Texas Air National Guard fliers who died in accidents over the years, in cluding one during the time Bush was flying. "This was not an endeavor without risk," Harmon notes.


THE MOVE TO ALABAMA
The records show that Bush kept up his rigorous schedule of flying through the spring of 1972: He was credited for duty on ten days in March of that year, and seven days in April. Then, as Bush began his fifth year of service in the Guard, he appears to have stepped back dramatically. The records indicate that he received no credit in May, June, July, August, and September 1972. In October, he was credited with two days, and in November he was credited with four. There were no days in December, and then six in January 1973. Then there were no days in February and March.

The change was the result of Bush's decision to go to Alabama to work on the Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount. With an obligation to the Guard, Bush asked to perform equivalent service in Alabama. That was not an unusual request, given that members of the Guard, like everyone else, often moved around the country. "It was a common thing," recalls Brigadier General Turnipseed. "If we had had a guy in Houston, he could have made equivalent training with Bush's unit. It was so common that the guy who wrote the letter telling Bush to come didn't even tell me about it."

The president's critics have charged that he did not show up for service — was "AWOL" — in Alabama. Bush says he did serve, and his case is supported by records showing that he was paid and given retirement credit for days of service while he was known to be in Alabama. The records also show that Bush received a dental examination on January 6, 1973, at Dannelly Air National Guard base, home of the 187th (January 6 was one of the days that pay records show Bush receiving credit for service). And while a number of Guard members at the base say they do not remember seeing Bush among the roughly 900 men who served there during that time, another member, a retired lieutenant named John Calhoun, says he remembers seeing Bush at the base several times.

What seems most likely is that Bush was indeed at Dannelly, but there was not very much for a non-flying pilot to do. Flying fighter jets involves constant practice and training; Bush had to know when he left Texas that he would no longer be able to engage in either one very often, which meant that he would essentially leave flying, at least for some substantial period of time. In addition, the 187th could not accommodate another pilot, at least regularly. "He was not going to fly," says Turnipseed. "We didn't have enough airplanes or sorties to handle our own pilots, so we wouldn't have done it for some guy passing through."

On the other hand, showing up for drills was still meeting one's responsibility to the Guard. And, as 1973 went along, the evidence suggests that Bush stepped up his work to make up for the time he had missed earlier. In April of that year, he received credit for two days; in May, he received credit for 14 days; in June, five days; and in July, 19 days. That was the last service Bush performed in the Guard. Later that year, he asked for and received permission to leave the Guard early so he could attend Harvard Business School. He was given an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months, and five days of his original six-year commitment.

The records indicate that, despite his move to Alabama, Bush met his obligation to the Guard in the 1972-73 year. At that time, Guardsmen were awarded points based on the days they reported for duty each year. They were given 15 points just for being in the Guard, and were then required to accumulate a total of 50 points to satisfy the annual requirement. In his first four years of service, Bush piled up lots of points; he earned 253 points in his first year, 340 in his second, 137 in his third, and 112 in his fourth. For the year from May 1972 to May 1973, records show Bush earned 56 points, a much smaller total, but more than the minimum requirement (his service was measured on a May-to-May basis because he first joined the Guard in that month in 1968).

Bush then racked up another 56 points in June and July of 1973, which met the minimum requirement for the 1973-74 year, which was Bush's last year of service. Together, the record "clearly shows that First Lieutenant George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both '72-'73 and '73-'74, which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner," says retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd, a Guard personnel officer who reviewed the records at the request of the White House.

All in all, the documents show that Bush served intensively for four years and then let up in his fifth and sixth years, although he still did enough to meet Guard requirements. The records also suggest that Bush's superiors were not only happy with his performance from 1968 to 1972, but also happy with his decision to go to Alabama. Indeed, Bush's evaluating officer wrote in May 1972 that "Lt. Bush is very active in civic affairs in the community and manifests a deep interest in the operation of our government. He has recently accepted the position as campaign manager for a candidate for United States Senate. He is a good representative of the military and Air National Guard in the business world."

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Is this simple enough for you Dex???

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Is this simple enough for you? He wasn't there for almost a year. Where was he? Do you know? 'Cause no one else does.
Let me know if I'm losing you with this somehow. According to Air Force officers, what's most disturbing is his refusal to take a physical--almost never done by an aviator.
Maybe you should lay off reading that partisan history 'story' and stick to real news.

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The F-102 was designed to shoot down other fighter planes, and the missions Bush flew were training flights, mostly over the Gulf of Mexico

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Let's get him a few medals for protecting us from Mexico, while the less-privileged were fighting his daddy's war and dying in Viet Nam.

Now here's something you should read that might help you out with this, from the Boston Globe:

Bush's loss of flying status should have spurred probe
By Walter V. Robinson and Francie Latour, Globe Staff, 2/12/2004

President Bush's August 1972 suspension from flight status in the Texas Air National Guard -- triggered by his failure to take a required annual flight physical -- should have prompted an investigation by his commander, a written acknowledgement by Bush, and perhaps a written report to senior Air Force officials, according to Air Force regulations in effect at the time.

Bush, who was a fighter-interceptor pilot assigned to the Texas Air National Guard, last flew in April 1972 -- just before the missed physical and 30 months before his flight commitment ended. He also did not attend National Guard training for several months that year and was permitted to cut short his military commitment a year later in 1973.

Late yesterday, assistant White House press secretary Erin Healy said the White House does not have records about the flight physical. "At this point, we've shared everything we have," Healy said. A spokesman for the National Guard Bureau said if there are records about any inquiry into Bush's flight status, they would most likely be in Bush's personnel file, stored in a military records facility in Colorado.

For military aviators, the annual flight physical is a line they must cross to retain coveted flying status. Flight surgeons who conduct the examinations have the power to remove pilots from flying duty.

The new questions about Bush's service arose a day after the White House disclosed attendance and payroll records that appeared to show that Bush sporadically attended Guard drills between May 1972 and May 1973 -- even though his superiors at the time said that Bush did not appear at their units in that period.

Two retired National Guard generals, in interviews yesterday, said they were surprised that Bush -- or any military pilot -- would forgo a required annual flight physical and take no apparent steps to rectify the problem and return to flying. "There is no excuse for that. Aviators just don't miss their flight physicals," said Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard, in an interview.

Brigadier General David L. McGinnis, a former top aide to the assistant secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs, said in an interview that Bush's failure to remain on flying status amounts to a violation of the signed pledge by Bush that he would fly for at least five years after he completed flight school in November 1969.

"Failure to take your flight physical is like a failure to show up for duty. It is an obligation you can't blow off," McGinnis said.

Bush joined the Texas Air Guard in May 1968 after intercession by friends of his father, who was then a Houston congressman. He was quickly commissioned, spent a year in flight school in Georgia and then six months learning to fly an F-102 fighter-interceptor at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. From June 1970 until April 1972, he flew frequently.

His last flight physical was in May 1971.

The following April, just before his next physical was due, Bush moved temporarily to Alabama to work on a Republican US Senate race, and was given permission to attend Guard drills at a Montgomery Air Guard base. But he did not appear for his May 1972 physical, and he performed no duty at all until late October 1972, according to Guard records that became public this week.

A Sept. 29, 1972, order sent to Bush by the National Guard Bureau, the defense department agency which oversees the Guard, noted that Bush had been verbally suspended from flying on Aug. 1. The written order made it official: "Reason for suspension: Failure to accomplish annual medical examination."

The order required Bush to acknowledge the suspension in writing and also said: "The local commander who has authority to convene a Flying Evaluation Board will direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination." After that, the commander had two options -- to convene the Evaluation Board to review Bush's suspension or forward a detailed report on his case up the chain of command.

Either way, officials said yesterday, there should have been a record of the investigation.

The issue of Bush's suspension has been clouded in mystery since it first arose during the 2000 campaign. Dan Bartlett, a Bush campaign aide who is now White House communications director, said then that Bush didn't take the physical because his family physician was in Houston and he was in Alabama. But the examination is supposed to be done by a flight surgeon, and could have been done at the base in Montgomery.

It is unclear whether Bush's commander, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, ordered any inquiry, as required.

McGinnis said he, too, thought it possible that Bush's superiors considered him a liability, so they decided "to get him off the books, make his father happy, and hope no one would notice."

But McGinnis said there should have been an investigation and a report. "If it didn't happen, that shows how far they were willing to stretch the rules to accommodate" then-Lieutenant Bush.

Ask them how the search for Whitey Bulger is going also.

you read about the point scoring system right?? he fulfilled it.

Call me crazy but was it daddy's war if GB Sr. was the ambassador to China at the time?

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Let's get him a few medals for protecting us from Mexico, while the less-privileged were fighting his daddy's war and dying in Viet Nam.

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Would you mind elaborating on this profound diversion from common US History?

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Originally posted by SledNeck
Would you mind elaborating on this profound diversion from common US History?

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I think - but I'm not sure - he's joking about the Texas Nat'l Guard. Just like ppl might say the Washington Nat'l Guard is protecting us from Canada.

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Originally posted by KQ
I think - but I'm not sure - he's joking about the Texas Nat'l Guard. Just like ppl might say the Washington Nat'l Guard is protecting us from Canada.

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Maybe I should have been more specific....

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while the less-privileged were fighting his daddy's war and dying in Viet Nam.

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I'm having a difficult time comprehending the daddy thing and how it relates to Vietnam. Must have been the private school I attended that conspired with the Bush's to selectively omit the most important facts of the Vietnam war.

While daddy was working for Tricky Dick and helping make sure others' kids had to fight the war, George was flying around Texas and going AWOL in Alabama. Didn't think that really required explanation, but there ya go.

Subject of Campaign Rumor Denies She and Kerry Had an Affair

February 17, 2004
By JIM RUTENBERG

The woman at the center of unsubstantiated rumors that
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts had an extramarital
affair released a statement on Monday in which she denied
any romantic involvement with him.

"I have never had a relationship with Senator Kerry, and
the rumors in the press are completely false," the woman,
Alexandra Polier, 27, said in the statement. "Whoever is
spreading these rumors and allegations does not know me,
but should know the pain they have caused me and my
family."

Ms. Polier, a freelance journalist, submitted the statement
to The Associated Press from the suburbs of Nairobi, Kenya,
where she has been staying since fall with the parents of
her fiancé. She once worked for The Associated Press as an
editorial assistant.

Mr. Kerry's campaign aides were of mixed emotions on
Monday. Clearly hopeful the statement would end days of
what they considered unwarranted speculation, they said
they were frustrated with having to address the subject
again.

"The issues facing this country are far too serious for the
press to be marketing in these types of rumors," Stephanie
Cutter, Mr. Kerry's press secretary, said in a statement.

While there was no independent evidence to support it, the
rumor has had a vibrant life on the Internet, on talk
radio, and in the foreign news media, especially in
Australia and England, since it was first reported Thursday
by the Drudge Report Web site. It has received far less
attention in the mainstream American news media.

Denials from Mr. Kerry on the radio program of Don Imus on
Friday, and later during a session with reporters, were
reported by some American television news organizations and
newspapers, including The New York Times, in most cases
without identifying Ms. Polier.

In her statement yesterday, Ms. Polier said she came
forward after days of silence because she was frustrated by
the attention the rumor was continuing to receive. "Because
these stories were false, I assumed the media would ignore
them," she wrote. "It seems that efforts to peddle these
lies continue, so I feel compelled to address them."

Apparently addressing a report in The Sun of London last
week in which Ms. Polier's father, Terry, was quoted as
criticizing Mr. Kerry, he and Ms. Polier's mother, Donna,
also released a statement yesterday. It read: "We have
spoken to our daughter and the allegations that have been
made regarding her are completely false and
unsubstantiated." The Poliers, of Malvern, Pa., added that
they intended to vote for Mr. Kerry for president.

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[Ha, ha. No, Clinton just didn't need to start a war to boost his popularity.[/B]

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anyone ever heard of Operation Desert Fox?

aka All of the sudden I care about Iraq not complying with weapons inspections

aka Monica Lewinsky? Blowjob? What? Hey everybody, look at Iraq! Yeah!

It was no different 5 years ago.

I find these democratic complaints over military service, or lack therof, amusing considering the arguments made by the same democrats 8 years ago that military service doesn't matter, and draft dodging is perfectly OK. AWOL or not, Bush did take steps that the champion of the Democratic Party and of American Presidential Popularity NEVER DID.

It just depends on what side of the fence you sit on, I suppose...

btw in today's military, failure to show for a physical is some serious shit. It's considered failure to show for a mandatory appointment, and will immediately cause disciplinary action to take place. It's not pleasant. You can't blow that shit off.

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Originally posted by Jetter

I find these democratic complaints over military service, or lack therof, amusing considering the arguments made by the same democrats 8 years ago that military service doesn't matter, and draft dodging is perfectly OK. AWOL or not, Bush did take steps that the champion of the Democratic Party and of American Presidential Popularity NEVER DID.

It just depends on what side of the fence you sit on, I suppose...

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I sit on the side of the fence where not going to war for conscientious reasons is acceptable but lying through your teeth while claiming that you served your country in order is not.

Bush did take steps that the Clinton didn't, but hey, maybe if Bush had been poor and smart instead of rich and dumb he'd have had to get out of the war by winning a Rhodes scholarship instead of having his daddy first get him out of harm's way and then not having the balls to finish even that limited responsibility. So who knows.

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Originally posted by Alex P. Keaton
I sit on the side of the fence where not going to war for conscientious reasons is acceptable...

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I guess you got fleeced too. Clinton has an ego the size of the Hindenburg and if you beleive he went to england on his puffing junket because he had "conscientios reasons" then I got a bridge to sell you. He just wanted to avoid getting shot at and wanted to smoke the peace pipe.

Thank you, APK. You couldn't be more right.

Just imagine that Kerry was the one who had ducked Viet Nam service by using family ties to get a Guard spot, and then hadn't even shown up for his physical. It would be a real Republican shit-storm, that's for sure.

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Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Thank you, APK. You couldn't be more right.

Just imagine that Kerry was the one who had ducked Viet Nam service by using family ties to get a Guard spot, and then hadn't even shown up for his physical. It would be a real Republican shit-storm, that's for sure.

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So are we now arguing that the media is convervative and that they swept all of this Nat. guard stuff under the rug when bush was running. Dude, you impress me more and more w/ your delusions.

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Originally posted by 1080Rider
So are we now arguing that the media is convervative and that they swept all of this Nat. guard stuff under the rug when bush was running. Dude, you impress me more and more w/ your delusions.

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I don't see how you get that from Dex...The reason it doesn't/didn't get more play is because there isn't much proof that he wasn't there, just as there isn't much proof that he was. It's pretty hard to argue a negative.

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Originally posted by 1080Rider
So are we now arguing that the media is convervative and that they swept all of this Nat. guard stuff under the rug when bush was running. Dude, you impress me more and more w/ your delusions.

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No, no, no. You also get more and more impressive, but the effect is sort of depressing. As APK pointed out, and I did earlier, no one knows what he was doing during the time in question, and in 2000 Gore decided not to make an issue of it.
But I see you're under the impression that there's some mysterious liberal media force out there (owned by GE and Rupert Murdoch) that gave us GWB as prez.
Please, keep up with the baseless opining.

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Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
in 2000 Gore decided not to make an issue of it.

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I can't remember all the particulars of the 2000 campaign with regard to character assignations and all but..........

Hasn't the "service issue" come up this time as a direct result of GWB behavior on the aircraft carrier and the fact that young men and women are dying in the name of our country?

I'm puzzled how you think that it would have been a "republican shit storm" had Kerry done the same thing that Bush is accused of. That clearly portrays to me that you have some delusions that the media choses to pick on liberals or that the media only reports what conservatives want. And if you don't think the media has a liberal slant, or if you think that Rupert Murdock owns the AP, then I can see where the rest of your spewing comes from. Glad I don't live in your world.