In depth analysis of what we're doing as a country (NSR):

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian


Oh, and the Hitler comparisons help arguments too. keep them coming.

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Okay...............an excerpt from an article (link below)

Prescott Bush, the late, aristocratic senator from Connecticut, and grandfather of George W Bush, was not only a good friend of Allen Dulles, CIA director, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, and international business lawyer. He was also a client of Dulles' law firm. As such, he was the beneficiary of Dulles' miraculous ability to scrub the story of Bush's treasonous investments in the Third Reich out of the news media, where it might have interfered with Bush's political career . . . not to mention the presidential careers of his son and grandson.

Recently declassified US government documents, unearthed last October by investigative journalist John Buchanan at the New Hampshire Gazette, reveal that Prescott Bush's involvement in financing and arming the Nazis was more extensive than previously known. Not only was Bush managing director of the Union Banking Corporation, the American branch of Hitler's chief financier's banking network; but among the other companies where Bush was a director—and which were seized by the American government in 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act—were a shipping line which imported German spies; an energy company that supplied the Luftwaffe with high-ethyl fuel; and a steel company that employed Jewish slave labor from the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Like all the other Bush scandals that have been swept under the rug in the privatized censorship of the corporate media, these revelations have been largely ignored, with the exception of a single article in the Associated Press. And there are those, even on the left, who question the current relevance of this information.

But Prescott Bush's dealings with the Nazis do more than illustrate a family pattern of genteel treason and war profiteering—from George Senior's sale of TOW missiles to Iran at the same time he was selling biological and chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein, to Junior's zany misadventures in crony capitalism in present-day Iraq.

More disturbing by far are the many eerie parallels between Adolph Hitler and George W. Bush:

A conservative, authoritarian style, with public appearances in military uniform (which no previous American president has ever done while in office). Government by secrecy, propaganda and deception. Open assaults on labor unions and workers' rights. Preemptive war and militant nationalism. Contempt for international law and treaties. Suspiciously convenient "terrorist" attacks, to justify a police state and the suspension of liberties. A carefully manufactured image of "The Leader," who's still just a "regular guy" and a "moderate." "Freedom" as the rationale for every action. Fantasy economic growth, based on unprecedented budget deficits and massive military spending.

And a cold, pragmatic ideology of fascism—including the violent suppression of dissent and other human rights; the use of torture, assassination and concentration camps; and most important, Benito Mussolini's preferred definition of "fascism" as "corporatism, because it binds together the interests of corporations and the state."

By their fruits, you shall know them.

Paranoid Shift

What she said...

I'm pretty fond of how conservatives seem so singularily able to A) absolve the shrub from responsibility for economic downturns and hardship while B) crediting him with the (tepid at best) recovery of the economy. Sorry folks, other than in a long range sense, the prez has relatively little impact on the economy during his own term...but there is a really cool term for this stuff: doublethink.

And as much as I hate the shrub, I find analogies to Hitler somewhat lacking, not the least of which is that Hitler was a charismatic and firey orator who through the exertion of his own personal will was able to bend people to his rather preposterous demands and wishes.

I think that the shrub and his organization bear a much much closer resemblance to the state creations of George Orwell.

I'd urge everyone to go back and re-read (or read if you haven't) both Animal Farm and 1984 (20yrs late but still chillingly accurate).

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Originally posted by The Reverend Floater
I think that this is exactly what Buster was trying to say, AG. Even us raging-peace-at-all-cost-pot-smoking-Shrub-hating-liberal-tree-hugging-hippies support our troops.

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I know that. :) I was only trying to refute his specific point where he said the draft would help dilute the military community. That makes no sense, since draftees wouldn't be in any better position to make a difference in foreign policy than the soldiers we have today are (unless you're going to draft senators or something ;) .) Hell, I know a few fairly high ranking officers who still feel like they can't make a difference. The elected leaders are the ones we need to worry about - the military doesn't get to declare war and do stuff on it's own.

Absolutely right.

My father was career Army. Joined the cold war fight and worked hard to protect our freedom. Seperated as Major, but continued to work as a civilian for the Pentagon.

Then came Vietnam.

He became very disillusioned with the wrong decisions being made for the wrong reasons, but he had less say than you or I. After all, his career, his ability to put bread and butter on the table was in jeopardy if he spoke up.

Honestly, I think that a military man, like Clark, would be less likely to risk lives than someone who has never lived with the risks and failures of lost battles.

While warmonger is not the right word, you completely misunderstand me.
Base life is not real life. Base life could use more outsiders.

There is a danger of a military culture.

I apologize if this is offensive to you. Despite others intent, that is not mine. My intent is to try to get those that can think to do so.

I don't think I misunderstand you, I just disagree with you. My experience in the military was filled with people who had a wide variety of life experiences and political opinions, whether or not they could always voice them publicly, there was still plenty of off the books discussion. And it certainly depends on the base, the unit and who's in charge - maybe I was just lucky. I'm just saying I think you're underestimating the variety of people and opinions that already exist within the military. But hey, you're welcome to your opinion.

I'm referring to career military people and you're supporting the concern: opinions are not allowed.

Military culture is not civilian culture. The more dissent and civie culture pervades, the better. Having a draft >>>MIGHT<<< change that.

But, I am tired of being misunderstood and you do misunderstand the tone in which the posit is made. I said >>>>****maybe****<<<< it's a good thing. I don't know.

I'm being defensive of the posit. I apologize, I'm going to go get wet.

I agree Mr. Gyptian, no one president does affect the economy the way the statement implies. However, the World Monetary Fund just issued a release stating that The current deficit spending of the Bush administration is threatening to destabilize the world's economy. His fiscal policy is reckless just like his corporate cohorts from Texas were. Would you trust Ken Lay with your life savings? We will suffer in the end. I predict it.

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Originally posted by str8line
However, the World Monetary Fund just issued a release stating that The current deficit spending of the Bush administration is threatening to destabilize the world's economy.

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Do you have a link for that? I'd really really like to read that.

Edit: Are talking about this?

KQ's post about the parallel's between Bush and Hitler should be on the front page of every newspaper in the nation. Downright FREAKY. As I said in a long ago post on the Powder site, Bush will go down as the most damaging person in US history.

Yeah, cause then he would be impeached. It's amazing how educated everyone is on this board.:rolleyes: I wonder why the rest of America can't see it. His approval ratings aren't great, but they're definitely not 0 either.

Here's the link about the World Monetary Fund warning of the danger of Bush's fiscal policy:


http://www.sltrib.com/2004/jan/01082...n_w/127173.asp

To be honest I believe the Dems and Repubs are all full of shit and then some. Both have done fantastic jobs making this country look bad over the last 40 years. But speaking as person that has spent time in many of those third world countries I've seen some things to reflect upon.

1. UN representatives in Thailand (hell all over the world) passing out microwaves and tv's to a village chief when the village has no electricity or clean water, and a serious health problem from the human waste laying everywhere. They spent a total of 8 hours there and left. However we atleast got some septic ditchs dug for them to only watch them get the stuff out in buckets to spread as fertilizer for their crops. :rolleyes:

2. Watching every person desperately trying to get to the USA, and then say how bad we are. Then turn around an desperately try to get here again. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways. And if I have to pay to be seen in a hospital than all illegals have to pay too.

3. Countries that owe the good ole USA billions of dollars, then demand we forgive the loans, then they talk shit about us. I say call in all the loans. We would have no more deficet, and we would have health care for everyone paid for. Here are few countries that come to mind. France, Germany, Russia, Saudi Arabia (we paid for their oil wells), Egypt, Italy, Libyia, Japan, Philipenes, Tiawan, India, etc etc etc etc etc .

4. And the thing that just kills me the most. Arab terrorists that say we are all infidels because of our open culture and how we are all going to hell. The day before they kill 3000 people on 911 they spend the night partying away at a titty bar getting drunk. Heh! In Gulf War Part 1 we were told to look the other way when we see these rich Saudi/Kuwaiti men escaping with women that have blonde hair and blue eyes, that were reaching out to us to get away from them. You know all those beautiful little girls you see on milk cartons that are missing. 3 guess's the first 2 don't count where they end up. I've seen it. :mad:

Call in the loans, Close the checkbook, then tell them to bad. Live without us. If you wanna play ball then knock off the stupid shit and we will do our best to knock our stupid shit off as well. Otherwise. PAY UP. See what happens to your countries economy when we call in the loans and freeze your assests. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I really love the idea of spending $1.5 billion to promote marriage. yeah. Facking Brainstorm.

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
str8, the fact that what ever source you got that from actually attributes the downward turn in the economy to a president underlines the stupidity with which you post. The largest asset bubble in recorded history popped. It was not Clinton's fault(though he took credit) it inflated or popped during his presidency. the effects fell upon the bush presidency. no one president affects the economy the way this implies. to contend that is baseless. Additionally, stating things such as "I presided over the largest stock market drop in history" and believing it is a presidents fault. debases any argument formed around spotty parts of his record as a governor or businessman.

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I'm not sure what 'illustrates the stupidity with which you post', but you certainly are poorly informed and a hopeless right wing ideologue. The president always receives credit/blame for what happens with the economy, and the country as a whole. It's debatable how much credit/blame is deserved, but it is a certainty that Bush and the Republicans deserve blame for spending and tax-cutting us into impending economic disaster. In order to win this election they are risking our economic stability. Bush has been fiscally reckless, and this combined with his policy of talking the Dollar down for short term 'gain' is risking the U.S.'s position of ecnomic superiority in the world.
Plus he's a downright stupid man.

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He got a DUI. so fucking what. does that say anything about anyone's character???

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Yes, Republicans have never made issue of such character issues. I'd love to see what would have happened if Clinton had had a DUI--the Republicans would be going apeshit.
And it is just one indication of a hundred that he is a downright stupid man.

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did drugs. who on this board has not, or does not.

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I doubt anyone on this board with a history of cocaine abuse would expect to be taken seriously as a Republican candidate for president. Especially not if they were a downright stupid person.

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please post it again, though.

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Don't bother until you figure out the basics, such as the fact that Shrub is downright unintelligent.

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Originally posted by Buster Highmen
While warmonger is not the right word, you completely misunderstand me.
Base life is not real life. Base life could use more outsiders.

There is a danger of a military culture.

I apologize if this is offensive to you. Despite others intent, that is not mine. My intent is to try to get those that can think to do so.

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Though I have never felt censored, I can definitely say others in a uniform probably have. Just as I'm sure it's hard to be a liberal if you work for the NRA or in a conservative investment banking or law firm. That said, a draft would do nothing to change that. Military culture has its assholes, but so does every demographic. My experiences in the military were positive. Mostly people who did not have a future handed to them who were most concerned about the welfare of those around them. Hard to complain too much about a culture like that.

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Originally posted by str8line
KQ's post about the parallel's between Bush and Hitler should be on the front page of every newspaper in the nation. Downright FREAKY. As I said in a long ago post on the Powder site, Bush will go down as the most damaging person in US history.

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Short of the lives of 10 million Jews.

I loved Parental Advisory, one of the best ever.

Originally posted by Telephil
Yeah, cause then he would be impeached. It's amazing how educated everyone is on this board.:rolleyes:

???

OK Blurred, you know who I am. Who are you? Give me some background so I can maybe gain a modicum of respect for you.

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Originally posted by str8line
Give me some background so I can maybe gain a modicum of respect for you.

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yeah, that won't help.

don't sweat him g.

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Originally posted by str8line
OK Blurred, you know who I am. Who are you? Give me some background so I can maybe gain a modicum of respect for you.

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I loved Parental Advisory, one of the best ever.

Ah yes. I remember it well. But please. Forgive me.

Just don't offer to suck my dick again.

“To give good counsel’s our appointed task
But spears and steeds are all the faith we ask;
With daggers we will make the earth blood red
And crowd the sky with lances overhead.”
- From the story of Jandal and the King of Yemen, Shahnameh (Persian Book of Kings).

I guess this is the real question here. Where is the good counsel here? The words you know in you heart to be real truth and real wisdom. The ones that ring with compassion and understanding but are also not afraid to seek out and fight for justice. Are “spears and steeds” all the faith we need in this age or could there be something more?
Shortly before we invaded Iraq, I put up a long post in the PMag forum in one of these political threads detailing why I thought this war was a correct decision (I still have it and can repost it if need be). My goal with that post was to hint at the complexities of the situation and the possible alternate reasons why it might be a good idea. While I think that in the long run it may still prove a worth while undertaking I am very troubled at the continued lack of understanding of the situation by the American public and the lack of any showing by the administration as to their proper understanding of the situation.
Let me be blunt here. The Muslim faith is in trouble. It is struggling. It is going to change drastically in the coming years and the only question is whether it will change peacefully and to the betterment of all who worship under its Mosques or whether it will die a violent death taking millions of bystanders with it. And America’s war on terrorism is our nation’s involvement in that struggle and should be framed as such with the requisite action, compassion, and understanding. To go about this war on terror as just the effort to keep Americans safe is a potentially very damaging road to take. My most sincere hope every day is that someone in the administration knows and believes this and gives voice to this.
Because of accidents of history, politics, geology, technology, and economics, Islam is at this time structured in a way incompatible with the modern 21st century connected world. It is very much a medieval society where Ayatollah’s, Sheiks, and Princes rule the tribal landscape and their word is divine law piped through them directly from Mohammed himself. Then they take their oil riches from the west and use it to beat down the poor of their societies and to drill into the heads of their privileged youth the teachings of a tyrannical version of their faith leaving both wholly unable to accept or deal with the modern world growing around them at both matters of practical skill and faith. This works fine if the situation is as I said before, a tribal landscape. One where distinct kingdoms exist as islands of civilization and interact with one another at the time scale of the camel and the horse. But now as we stand here the last of the islands are swallowed up and the time scales are now that of the photon and electron and the children of Mohammed are left behind to ponder their situation in the streets crowded around the nearest power hungry Mullah looking to gain a few more foot soldiers to fight along side his own personal demons when all they want is something productive to do to feel worth while to themselves and to their god.
As someone who was raised in the Sufi traditions and the great works of love, compassion, and knowledge of Gilgamesh, Rumi, Omar Khayyam, and Mullah Nasrudin this makes me beyond sick. But I am not a citizen of these diseased kingdoms. I am an American. All I can do is my part to guide my own country to help out in the healing where possible and to look out for such similar diseases taking root among my own streets and under my own roofs. Sometimes this will mean and invasion, sometimes it will mean standing idly by. Sometimes it will mean ruling with an iron fist and sometimes it will mean getting hit hard and still standing there with arms open ready to give unflinching love. But whatever the action and circumstance, I hope and pray that America never looses sight of the larger struggle the victory of which is rooted in the very truths this country was founded upon and the victory of which will be the only real victory in the war on terror.

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Originally posted by str8line
Ah yes. I remember it well. But please. Forgive me.

Just don't offer to suck my dick again.

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I loved Parental Advisory, one of the best ever.