PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

Wow. This thread took a turn. Left? Or right?

Rent.
Yes. It was once payment for lodging.

But now we have the phrase “rent seeking” which is basic capital allocation for maximum profit. Which is capitalism.
I don’t blame anyone that wants to turn an honest buck

But with our corruption we no longer have a constitutional republic let alone a democracy. It’s government for sale to the highest bidder.

I guess that’s why the musk thread got sent to the dungeon of Polly ass.
He’s a grifter. Sucking the electric car tax teat.

And yes. Ronny raygun zap broke the air traffic controller union. I member.

Unions have their place. Historically they created standard work weeks and ot and ended child labor. And increased safety.

thanks.
That is not what I was told, and that is not what the uta.libraries website says about the 1981 PATCO strike.
( The Reagan administration refused to negotiate ( Reagan is quoted, "no negotiations" ) with PATCO ( the union ) and enforced a never-before-enforced 1955 law firing the air traffic controllers. According to the uta.libraries website, PATCO was decertified ; I consider that union busting.

And none of this is important to this thread -
I was acknowledging my bias, and this is part of the reason for that bias. )

This thread is off-track, and I would like to see it get back on-track.

Those that support the union - that's great !
I am trying to express my support for the patroller.
Today, we got side-tracked by posts about taxation and capitalism ( and etcetera ).

When one's contribution to the thread is, " Are you autistic? "
' Thank you for your contribution. ' is the best response you will get from me
( although my reply in another thread was, 'skiJ is a hack. ' Perhaps that would have played better. )

Topic. PCPSPA potential strike.
the topic is dear to me ; patrolling and patrollers are important to me. ( Skiing is important to me. )

I have offered my input up-thread, and tried to recently summarize it this evening.
I am not going to regurgitate it again now.


There are a couple of good posts today that deserve consideration - one mentions reviewing the National Labor Relations Act
( to which I would ,,, suggest reviewing Utah's ' at-will ' state legislation ), and the question of does one want Patrollers to be 'highly-trained professionals' (?)

-Unicorn, (clearly) my posts are not for you, and I have encouraged you to ignore them.

enough from me for now.

peace. tj

At the time the raygun deal was that air traffic control was a national safety issue
And the gripe of the controllers was too many hours under intense pressure.
And they wanted some more pay for keeping us safe
And yes. They were overworked and stressed out.

Much like ski patrollers that keep us safe we need to pay fair wage. Although I must say that first tracks are hard to price. As Walter Blum said to us in my taxation class, they can’t tax psychic income. I need to get more of that income.

My personal gripe about unions is bullshit regulations and the top dogs grifting. Just take care of your people. That’s what unions are for

SkiJ, you brought up air traffic controllers and the PATCO strike. I asked questions because I couldn’t figure out what it had to do with the thread topic. Your posting style is strange and not really easy to understand, hence the autistic comment. You clearly have some emotional investment in the topic but I’m still not sure on your position. I’ll leave it be but I doubt I’m the only one that doesn’t get your point.


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( my post was a response to -Unicorn's post, not Core Shot's post.

skiJ )

Well Wanker Park Patrol had this to deal with yesterday https://unofficialnetworks.com/2024/...r-park-resort/

And the mechanics got it fixed in 30 hours with a part for GJ


And actually there is a price for First Tracks https://www.ikonpass.com/en/local-pa...rly-ups-add-on

Can you imagine a scab crew pulling of that rescue?

Not too shabby for $20/hr. ......

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Originally Posted by new yabyum

Can you imagine a scab crew pulling of that rescue?

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Actually, I can (and yes I know WP isn't VR).

Years ago, VR started promoting standardization of departments across their resorts. I honestly don't believe the reasoning was to allow an outside crew to run the mountain in the event of a strike; this is really common within corporations. However, there were very regular conversations among the patrols regarding who does what and how in a particular scenario to establish best practices.

I know there's a lot of discussion here and elsewhere with the talking point being that a patrol's skill set, in this case Park City, is somehow proprietary, but that just isn't true. Medical/trauma call responses mostly look the same everywhere; get the patient to a higher level of care and move on. No ALS interventions available? Lots of ski areas still don't offer this. Lift evacuation is remarkably consistent everywhere in the world, to include gondola evac. Avalanche control requires WAY more institutional knowledge, but with enough explosives you can get some terrain open. Shoot the obvious places, follow with SAE, and finish with large grain testing if you really want to get crazy and CYA. You may destroy the skiing, but you can protect the open terrain below. Lastly, I'd rather work with a 10+ year patroller (a scab, if you will) from another ski area than a rookie with 2 months experience from the home mountain or even a second year. This depth of experience argument is a bit shaky. Will the mountain operate normally or at full speed? No. Can an imported crew get the lights turned on? You bet.

Again, I hope all the patrols get what they're asking for, but some of their messaging doesn't hold up.

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Originally Posted by mr walker

Lastly, I'd rather work with a 10+ year patroller (a scab, if you will) from another ski area than a rookie with 2 months experience from the home mountain or even a second year.

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So you would take a 10 year patroller from Vail-owned Boston Mills Ohio over a second year at Park City? Running a wreck 100' from the base lodge, sure, take the experience. For a lot of other things I think the local would be better at the job though.

OMG I had no idea Vail owns Boston Mills now. The world is going to shit. Vail does nothing for the ski industry. Only buying resorts like monopoly properties. Never investing anything into them just collecting resorts to be the biggest conglomerate. Sad day for all those that live in NE Ohio that ski.

For those who don't know I grew up skiing at Boston Mills. Live and ski in Utah now.

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^^^ vail has a long history of buying shitty midwestern hills. Then the customer gets an epic pass and can’t say no to free skiing at vail properties out west.
It’s not a stupid biz model.

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

So you would take a 10 year patroller from Vail-owned Boston Mills Ohio over a second year at Park City? Running a wreck 100' from the base lodge, sure, take the experience. For a lot of other things I think the local would be better at the job though.

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Valid point, I won't double down to argue that.

There are a lot of experienced patrollers at major western ski areas owned by VR who do not view the unions favorably, and in fact, resent them. I could see them flying in at VR's request and compensation. That was the crowd I was referring to, I could've been more specific.

“Resent them?” Really? I know pro patrollers at a few western ski hills, one is vail-owned, that definitely do not resent the unions.


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It would be amusing to see some Ohio scab trying to ski in more than 3 or 4” of snow in PC.

All the patrollers and former trollers I know in CO & UT ( snow science guys) think the unions are needed and Vail has been dragging their feet. These folks save lives ( mine included) mitigate risk andmake the resort skiing experience p[possible. Pay them a fair wage

Stumbled into a link to an interview with fucker Carlson and the current teamsters boss. He had to defend his appearance at RNC. Wasn’t invited to DNC. I guess times change. The most rabid dumps fans I know are union.

He did say the RNC wanted him to edit his speech. He calls drumpf and the quote is “say whatever the fuck your want”
Yeah. Typical Donny. Say anything to be liked.
But I found it interesting insofar as the left has lost the working man. Get your shit together!

Posted a quick summary to save you from having to watch the blue blood bow tie wearing erudite Yankee

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Originally Posted by F#*k you cat

OMG I had no idea Vail owns Boston Mills now. The world is going to shit. Vail does nothing for the ski industry. Only buying resorts like monopoly properties. Never investing anything into them just collecting resorts to be the biggest conglomerate. Sad day for all those that live in NE Ohio that ski.

For those who don't know I grew up skiing at Boston Mills. Live and ski in Utah now.

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The only reason I used Boston Mills is that it's the wife's home hill. There's actually a lot of you out west.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

That would be Palisades (Squaw/Alpine).

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Which is my home mountain. Some of the routes are no joke. It's exposed and steep. Lots of ice and large snow accumulation from storms.

I'm sure there are mountains than any average skier can patrol at, but you better be able to ski at Alpine/Squaw to do the routes.

E. Knudsen still around SVSP?

I did a patrol exchange with Alpine way back when they and Park City were owned by the same family, 1988 I think. Terrible winter, extreme low tide conditions made it really hard to picture the avalanche that destroyed the Alpine base area. Did 1 day over at Squaw but the skiing was so awful we went to Reno for some day drinking. Meanwhile we were getting snow in UT.:fmicon:

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

“Resent them?” Really? I know pro patrollers at a few western ski hills, one is vail-owned, that definitely do not resent the unions.


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I was a pro patroller at one of the VR heavyweights when they unionized. I left before the curtain fell on the voting results. The following is coming directly from some of those patrollers as recently as a few months ago who did not support unionization at the time or now: a large part of the union messaging has been "career wages" and "improve retention", which is something we can all get behind. The problem with the execution was that the patrollers who received the most drastic wage increases were generally in the early career stage, while line patrollers who had 10, 15, 20+ years under their belt (i.e., the ones already making a career run) saw marginal wage increases by comparison. Patrollers who were supervisors were not eligible to be in the union. So there was a perception, and likely at least some reality, that patrollers who had a ton of sweat equity, institutional knowledge, and a disproportionate level of responsibility within the organization were not being compensated in an equitable way. This was coupled with what is assumed to be historic levels of senior patroller attrition since COVID (don't have the numbers to back that up, but it's unanimously agreed on). We're talking hundreds of years of experience. When you put those two together, it once again creates a perception and a messaging problem for the union that fosters resentment.

Those patrollers or that particular patrol are clearly not representative of larger trends, but there's this belief that patrol unions are universally adored, good for everyone, and competently managed - and it's patently false. Don't get it twisted. I vividly remember the state of things when the union was being voted on. Something had to be done in the absence of action by patrol management. But when you have a union leader saying "I don't care if this all goes to shit, my wife's family has money so Vail can fire me" (direct quote), you can count on the smartest brains in the room being drowned out by the loudest voices. That's how you arrive at mismanagement, division within the patrol, and lack of transparency, which is a bit of a paradox as the union is supposed to prevent that. That part is obviously anecdotal from my personal experience and observations, I'm not speaking for PCSP or their current situation.

To clarify my stance, not that anyone asked, I'm not pro or anti union. I chose not to vote because I was appalled by the division which had been created. I want nothing but the best for everyone at my old patrol and elsewhere. If that's with a union, great. If that's without a union, also great. I'm trying to present the facts and opinions shared with me as objectively as possible, which I'll admit, is hard to do when discussing something as personal and subjective as the decision to unionize.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

All the patrollers and former trollers I know in CO & UT ( snow science guys) think the unions are needed and Vail has been dragging their feet. These folks save lives ( mine included) mitigate risk and make the resort skiing experience possible. Pay them a fair wage

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I totally believe you, and I totally agree with you. Everyone supports increased compensation. And now you have senior VR patrollers being pulled away from their families to PC during Christmas as part of the Patrol Support Team. You're right, Vail has been dragging their feet, and it's totally possible they'll lose complete control of the narrative if they don't act. I suspect the majority of VR patrollers want some kind of unionization just like you said. There is, however, a "silent" population out there, which is way larger than you think, isn't stoked on their union representation, and they don't get a voice outside of the patrol hut. It's a big world out there.

This thread has me digging up some weird memories, so on a way more positive and completely unrelated note...

When I left Vail Resorts, I was near rock bottom and was going to leave the ski industry. One of the people who gave me some guidance was Bunion, who started doing this shit before a lot of us were alive. Looong story short, I stayed, and got involved with the greatest ski area ever conceived. Thanks, Bunion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnowMachine

Which is my home mountain. Some of the routes are no joke. It's exposed and steep. Lots of ice and large snow accumulation from storms.

I'm sure there are mountains than any average skier can patrol at, but you better be able to ski at Alpine/Squaw to do the routes.

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so you’re saying that every single patroller at swqalpine runs all of those lines every single day? or is the reality that a small portion of their total numbers actually has the responsibility of running the avie routes?

Thanks for sharing all of that! And sorry to dig up bad feels/memories.

The conflict or issues between supervisor and nonsupervisor in a unionized shop is common, and sometimes abused by the employer. A good employer will adequately compensate those in the manager/supervisor roles.

One Tahoe area pro-patrol are openly wearing items visible by guests (ski stickers) to indicate their desire to unionize.

A long time pro-union friend is no longer pro-patrol. They’re in management now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goldenboy

The only reason I used Boston Mills is that it's the wife's home hill. There's actually a lot of you out west.

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"Ohio is a good place to be from." Someone told me that one time and it's become something I say frequently.

The thought of an Ohio ski patroller traversing into avy terrain to throw bombs or do a ski cut is pretty funny.