Let's Talk About The Opioid Problem

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Fat shaming is not comparable, and is borderline offensive to equate to opioid addiction (which is what you did by bringing it up out of the blue in this thread). .

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I didn't bring it up jong and you'd know that if you had read the context I was responding to... You'd also see that your conclusions are probably way off base and counter to the latest obesity research. Oh no! You don't get to claim you're superior to fat people anymore.. that is unless you want to claim some sort of genetic "supremacy" angle.

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Perhaps more interesting than opioid addiction and a bigger public health crisis is the concept of endogenous opioid release after consumption of “hedonistic” foods. Lotta studies looking at naloxone and reduction in binge eating/weight loss…Hence Contrave, the Wellbutrin/naloxone combo FDA approved weight loss med with a hypothesis of blocking “anticipatory food reward”….

A bigger public health crisis involving opioid receptors/obesity….[/thread drift]

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Didn't you see that 60 Minutes a few weeks ago? It turns out that obesity is mostly genetic ;)

Naloxone has also been shown to block the antidepressant effect of ketamine despite ketamine having no direct action on the mu opioid receptor. Weird shit that really shows that we don't fully understand the mu opioid receptor's function.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Point being if you're good with people using weed as a daily maintenance routine it's hard to be critical of people using other similar things for the same purpose..

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Everybody has to make their own choices, so you do you. However, I DO have a problem with drugging children, telling them there's something wrong with them, and sending them down a path of requiring chemical crutches as "daily maintenance routines." I don't care if it's Adderall, weed, tobacco, or alcohol. When a person tells themselves they need ANY of those things to successfully make it through the day, that's a dependency by its very nature. If I had to crack open a cold one on my morning smoke break at the factory to "take the edge off" and be able to better focus on my tasks, people would call me an alcoholic. Yeah, I'd argue that weed/Adderall is less physically destructive, but the reliance on it is the point. I have a tendency to be pretty scatter brained and hyper, but I wouldn't call it ADHD (although a doctor surely would). I've found it preferable to increase exercise and improve diet/hydration when I notice I'm having fits of it to achieve what I at least hope are superior results. Like a dog that's being a spaz. They often times just need a good hard run. Daily.

Perhaps instead of sending too many Adderall hooked kids to University who can't concentrate and be studious enough on their own, perhaps we should be guiding them down different paths more suited to their natures. But hey, that's just my opinion. And while seemingly a bit off-topic, does anybody else wonder if its the regular, more normalized use of prescription drugs like Add that leads to an easier slip into opioids? Like for me personally, I've always hated the idea of putting anything lab created synthetic stuff into my body, so I've always avoided it until I REALLY need the medical intervention. But if a person is totally conditioned to swallow pills, having done it their entire lives since childhood, then it'd be NBD to take other pills. I mean a pill's a pill to many, right? Back when I used to hit the clubs and bars in my single days, I was always shocked by the amount of people that would gladly accept a pill from a person they didn't know at all and just pop it with a shot chaser. Girls would ask me all the time if I had any ex or molly. That always seemed like a bad idea (to swallow pills from strangers I mean). A certain amount of mental conditioning has to coincide with this, right? I just have to wonder. Can anybody else chime in on if there's any correlation to psychiatric medications leading to opioid use later on?

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

You'd also see that your conclusions are probably way off base and counter to the latest obesity research. Oh no! You don't get to claim you're superior to fat people anymore..

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My conclusion that conservation of energy is the solution to obesity? Or my conclusion that you cannot be healthy at any size? Or my conclusion that opioid addiction is far more destructive and dangerous than obesity? Or my conclusion that obesity should not be celebrated? Which one?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Depends i guess. Do you think 10% or greater of the population has brain chemistry that could be improved/optomized?

I guess what im getting at is maybe its not the drugs, but the method of administration and oversight of the patient that needs the be much better regulated.

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I personally won’t START someone on ADHD meds. I will refill/monitor, but not initiate. I send them for neuro/psych eval for formal diagnosis. If they meet criteria per expert consultation, fine. If not, nope, no ADHD meds.

I’m not a pill mill like the online predatory clinics.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

My conclusion that conservation of energy is the solution to obesity? Or my conclusion that you cannot be healthy at any size? Or my conclusion that opioid addiction is far more destructive and dangerous than obesity? Or my conclusion that obesity should not be celebrated? Which one?

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Obesity ? No problem >they have a DRUG for that

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Originally Posted by Trackhead

Perhaps more interesting than opioid addiction and a bigger public health crisis is the concept of endogenous opioid release after consumption of “hedonistic” foods. Lotta studies looking at naloxone and reduction in binge eating/weight loss…Hence Contrave, the Wellbutrin/naloxone combo FDA approved weight loss med with a hypothesis of blocking “anticipatory food reward”….

A bigger public health crisis involving opioid receptors/obesity….[/thread drift]

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Didn't you see that 60 Minutes a few weeks ago? It turns out that obesity is mostly genetic ;)

Naloxone has also been shown to block the antidepressant effect of ketamine despite ketamine having no direct action on the mu opioid receptor. Weird shit that really shows that we don't fully understand the mu opioid receptor's function.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Everybody has to make their own choices, so you do you. However, I DO have a problem with drugging children, telling them there's something wrong with them, and sending them down a path of requiring chemical crutches as "daily maintenance routines." I don't care if it's Adderall, weed, tobacco, or alcohol. When a person tells themselves they need ANY of those things to successfully make it through the day, that's a dependency by its very nature. If I had to crack open a cold one on my morning smoke break at the factory to "take the edge off" and be able to better focus on my tasks, people would call me an alcoholic. Yeah, I'd argue that weed/Adderall is less physically destructive, but the reliance on it is the point. I have a tendency to be pretty scatter brained and hyper, but I wouldn't call it ADHD (although a doctor surely would). I've found it preferable to increase exercise and improve diet/hydration when I notice I'm having fits of it to achieve what I at least hope are superior results. Like a dog that's being a spaz. They often times just need a good hard run. Daily.

Perhaps instead of sending too many Adderall hooked kids to University who can't concentrate and be studious enough on their own, perhaps we should be guiding them down different paths more suited to their natures. But hey, that's just my opinion. And while seemingly a bit off-topic, does anybody else wonder if its the regular, more normalized use of prescription drugs like Add that leads to an easier slip into opioids? Like for me personally, I've always hated the idea of putting anything lab created synthetic stuff into my body, so I've always avoided it until I REALLY need the medical intervention. But if a person is totally conditioned to swallow pills, having done it their entire lives since childhood, then it'd be NBD to take other pills. I mean a pill's a pill to many, right? Back when I used to hit the clubs and bars in my single days, I was always shocked by the amount of people that would gladly accept a pill from a person they didn't know at all and just pop it with a shot chaser. Girls would ask me all the time if I had any ex or molly. That always seemed like a bad idea (to swallow pills from strangers I mean). A certain amount of mental conditioning has to coincide with this, right? I just have to wonder. Can anybody else chime in on if there's any correlation to psychiatric medications leading to opioid use later on?

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Agree not to start to young and try other behavioral routine changes first.

However, growing evidence is showing that weed is really bad for the adolescent brain development. If they're doing a lot out on their own, a professionally prescribed and monitored regiment is better than self service weed and other stuff..

They won't get arrested for Adderall unless they get caught selling it. A weed conviction is still a pretty bad look when applying to colleges and professional jobs.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

My conclusion that conservation of energy is the solution to obesity? Or my conclusion that you cannot be healthy at any size? Or my conclusion that opioid addiction is far more destructive and dangerous than obesity? Or my conclusion that obesity should not be celebrated? Which one?

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Your conclusion that obesity is something to be criticized. It's no different that criticizing someone for the results of having diabetes, I or II. Celebrated? no but not criticized either. If you don't have anything "positive" to say to someone suffering from a legit disorder or disease just STFU.

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However, I DO have a problem with drugging children, telling them there's something wrong with them, and sending them down a path of requiring chemical crutches as "daily maintenance routines." I don't care if it's Adderall, weed, tobacco, or alcohol. When a person tells themselves they need ANY of those things to successfully make it through the day, that's a dependency by its very nature

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Your conclusion that obesity is something to be criticized. It's no different that criticizing someone for the results of having diabetes, I or II. Celebrated? no but not criticized either. If you don't have anything "positive" to say to someone suffering from a legit disorder or disease just STFU.

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I love that there's more obese people now a days, they cant do shit physically and have to hire me to work on their home ..cha-ching$

People don't need special drugs to lose weight either... my buddies wife just started walking 5-7 miles a day...a few months later she was hot as fuck again!

We may need a break from the super serious attitudes(not pointing any fingers) ...how about a clip from South Park >Heroin Hero :)

Satire and Humor can be more helpful than a Drug, sometimes

Criticizing a fet person for being fat is no different than criticizing a gay person for being gay. There are now documented hereditary/genetic traits that make those urges stronger than there are in people not predisposed that way. Neither one has to act on the urges that result in them being different.

Back on topic, the same goes for alcohol/drug addicts. Best we can do is build a world and environment that promotes the best health possible without victim blaming..

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

So fructose corn syrup is the fentanyl of the food world?
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Ya I know that's the worst hyperbole ever.

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It may be hyperbole, but it's actually pretty much on target. Listen to this, (particularly the part that starts 2:17 in), and tell me it's not the same dynamics at play.

https://www.nprillinois.org/2023-03-...rom-the-border

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

There are now documented hereditary/genetic traits that make those urges stronger than there are in people not predisposed that way.

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The prevalence of those genetic traits is the same as it was 50 years ago, but obesity has increased 300%. Modern obesity rates are not a genetic issue.

I only critisize people for being left-handed

some people self medicate with opiods, some with weed, some with food, some with sex, some with booze etc.

And other people can use those substances recreationally/for pleasure and not have a problem nor do they "need" them in any sort of disruptive/destructive way

complicated stuff

for example some people might "treat" their anxiety by smoking weed. Some might treat it by eating a whole bag of chips - or even literally just spoon feeding butter into themselves. A lot of time they are doing this in secret due to shame ie they know they are messed up and treating that via binge eating

to complicate matters further - some of these people get help for this harmful eating behaviour with meds like Adderall - couple that with some concurrent counseling and benefits have been shown (less destructive habits -> better self esteem -> better diet -> increased motivation to exercise -> weight loss - > better self image overall -> healthier lifestyle and so on)

The blanket statements above saying shit like "these pills are unnecessary!" is ignorant of the reality - the same shit has been discussed in here about antidepressants: "these pills are overused! therefore no one needs them! use common sense and bootstraps to fix your own problems - I did!"

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Everybody has to make their own choices, so you do you. However, I DO have a problem with drugging children, telling them there's something wrong with them, and sending them down a path of requiring chemical crutches as "daily maintenance routines." I don't care if it's Adderall, weed, tobacco, or alcohol. When a person tells themselves they need ANY of those things to successfully make it through the day, that's a dependency by its very nature.

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this is illogical - there are kids who something wrong with them. just like there are adults that have something wrong with them. Some of them need to be on pharmaceuticals - it's stupid to say otherwise.

If you want to argue that our society says too many people are labeled this way you'll get no argument from me.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Criticizing a fet person for being fat is no different than criticizing a gay person for being gay. There are now documented hereditary/genetic traits that make those urges stronger than there are in people not predisposed that way. Neither one has to act on the urges that result in them being different.

Back on topic, the same goes for alcohol/drug addicts. Best we can do is build a world and environment that promotes the best health possible without victim blaming..

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Pretty sure there isnt a way to turn a gay guy straight. But i can 100% guarantee i can turn a fat guy skinny in 6months or less. Also, being gay isnt objectively bad for your health or ability to function in society. Horrible comparison, and again fairly offensive to equate the two.

How can you promote the best health possible without identifying what is unhealthy? Which will be taken as shaming?

hrm.. I'm sure there's some kids that do need medication, but diagnosing a large % of the population is not cool. Kids can act pretty weird and it could be way to easy to label them in some 'category' to early.. that can give them an excuse to act out.

Like the Montey Python skit states > (new mother) Is it a Boy or a Girl doctor? (doctor replies) its a bit early to be asserting roles in it.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

But i can 100% guarantee i can turn a fat guy skinny in 6months or less.

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I'd bet you could. Problem is we have millions of fat guys and girls.

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Originally Posted by baron

hrm.. I'm sure there's some kids that do need medication, but diagnosing a large % of the population is not cool. Kids can act pretty weird and it could be way to easy to label them in some 'category' to early.. that can give them an excuse to act out.

Like the Montey Python skit states > (new mother) Is it a Boy or a Girl doctor? (doctor replies) its a bit early to be asserting roles in it.

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I agree (as I already stated) with regards to the % of people labeled and prescribed medications - whether they are kids or adults and whether we are talking about hyperactivity, obesity, depression, blood pressure, cholesterol and so on and so on.

But I get triggered by the illogical argument that what I typed above means these pills are not needed by anyone.

Or that society's reluctance to consider therapy/counseling to go along with medications (regardless of what they are being used for - anxiety, hyperactivity, obesity, blood pressure, cholesterol) is somehow a strike against the medications.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

this is illogical - there are kids who something wrong with them. just like there are adults that have something wrong with them. Some of them need to be on pharmaceuticals - it's stupid to say otherwise.

If you want to argue that our society says too many people are labeled this way you'll get no argument from me.

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I'm not so sure we're disagreeing all that much. We both believe that kids are WAY over diagnosed. There is no freaking way that the 45 million Americans "NEED" Adderall. If you look up the stats on American children and ADHD and furthermore, medication, the statistics are staggering. I'm not buying it. Is there a tiny % that have miswired brains? Sure, but not to the extent we're being told.

And again, I'll double down on the notion that with many (ok, not ALL) of these people, there's nothing "wrong" with them. More that we're trying to force everyone into the same box. We want nice little obedient cogs in the machine. Go to grade school, go to college, get a nice little white collar office job, pay your taxes, take your medication, be happy and shut up, retire, die... Good citizen. This works out GREAT for the drug manufacturers and their shareholders. "Feeling sad? We gotta pill for that. Feeling a little tooo frantic? Got one for that too. Feeling anxious? Guess what? We gotcha."

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

"Feeling sad? We gotta pill for that. Feeling a little tooo frantic? Got one for that too. Feeling anxious? Guess what? We gotcha."

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Is that a bad thing? I think its pretty cool that there is a pill (or combination) available to optomize how i want to feel at any given time.


If a Rx isnt NEEDED, but a patient would benefit from it... do you think the patient should be prescribed the RX if they want it?

https://youtu.be/26GAP7FAMXU

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Is that a bad thing? I think its pretty cool that there is a pill (or combination) available to optomize how i want to feel at any given time.

If a Rx isnt NEEDED, but a patient would benefit from it... do you think the patient should be prescribed the RX if they want it?

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Setting potential subjective morals and ethics aside, when it comes to a person's health, it absolutely CAN be a bad thing. Rx can have negative effects on gut health, which of course in turn effects EVERYTHING including you guess it, mental health.

NOT saying that individuals and physicians can't properly utilize them as tools, but I do have concerns about people using them willy nilly with zero regard to the downstream effects. Again, it's YOUR choice as to what you decide to put into your body or not, but people should pay more attention to the potential effects on their health and weigh their options accordingly. Don't forget, there is ALWAYS an underlying profit motive when it comes to this stuff, so buyer beware. I mean Purdue Pharma (Oxy) ARE the assholes that got us into much of this whole opioid mess to begin with by them blowing off the drug's ramifications. "Nah. It's not addictive. Don't worry 'bout it, guy. Would I lie to you?"

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Is that a bad thing? I think its pretty cool that there is a pill (or combination) available to optomize how i want to feel at any given time.


If a Rx isnt NEEDED, but a patient would benefit from it... do you think the patient should be prescribed the RX if they want it?

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I think it’s horrible to train your body to rely on external chemicals to “optimize” feelings. I’m using “optimize” specifically

You now have assigned yourself a life long crutch and are dependent on chemicals. If you stop, then you feel worse than you felt before the medicine.

Not good in my opinion and to be honest this mentality is many times the catalyst to dependency.

There is a huge difference between “needing” and “wanting”

Do I like taking an adderall and banging out a bunch of high quality work fast? You betcha, it “optimized” my performance.

Should I go and try to get a prescription because I like how it optimizes my work and makes boring shit interesting? Definitely not.

Lots of slippery slopes in this world with substances to “optimize”.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

I think it’s horrible to train your body to rely on external chemicals to “optimize” feelings. I’m using “optimize” specifically

You now have assigned yourself a life long crutch and are dependent on chemicals. If you stop, then you feel worse than you felt before the medicine.

Not good in my opinion and to be honest this mentality is many times the catalyst to dependency.

There is a huge difference between “needing” and “wanting”

Do I like taking an adderall and banging out a bunch of high quality work fast? You betcha, it “optimized” my performance.

Should I go and try to get a prescription because I like how it optimizes my work and makes boring shit interesting? Definitely not.

Lots of slippery slopes in this world with substances to “optimize”.

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I guess, IMO, it doesnt seem all that much different than how i treat coffee, or many people treat alcohol to optimize their feelings- coffee in the morning or when needing a boost, and alcohol for the celebratory buzz or numbing effects. These become long term habits that many/most see great benefit from, even if we become somewhat reliant. Obviously i am now talking about drugs with lower probability for true dependence, which is quite off topic from the OP.