Why your SUV sucks in the mountains

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Originally Posted by nomad_games

yeh I’m not sold on subies. I hear about a lot of issues on them from friends. See them broken down a lot on my commute. But yes. I mean that part of 70. I live near Idaho Springs up in the national forest. Also drive Berthoud a lot. Currently have a 4runner which is great except the gas costs. In the summer I was off-roading deep into the backcountry and camping a lot, so the 4x4 and interior space was nice but the gas is killing me.

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I've never seen a broken down Subaru on my commutes. And I live in Subbie country. I drove a 3.0R Subbie, fully loaded for 12 years. Had to replace the rear wheel bearings at 120k miles, probably due to the deicer they use and not being more diligent in washing off the road grime. Otherwise it was oil changes, and the usual maintenance. That car was a mountain goat with winter tires. I guess some people got lemons, and understand why they wouldn't want to buy another one. I wouldn't hesitate to get one if I were in the market, but the wife wanted something different and went with the Mercedes ML250 Bluetec. Great vehicle for long trips. Get's about 36 MPG in HWY driving. No issues driving in winter weather either. (With winter tires of course!)

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

I feel that having a hard on for one particular brand of tires is a personal thing.

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Agreed. There are plenty of very good snow tires out there. With compounding and tread design where it's at today, there's very little performance margins between major brand snow tires. Heck, even the tier 2 tire brands like Hankook, Falken, Sumitomo all build decent snow tires.

If we want to really nit pick 4wd or awd cars do actually stop a tiny bit faster on snow with similar tires than a 2wd version of the same vehicle. Something to do with the additional rotating mass on the extra axle or maybe just the extra sprung weight down low. Kind of slicing the dice close to the skin though.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

I think there are plenty of decent non-studded winter tires besides blizzak. Michelin Xi3, for example.

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Yup. In fact, I *prefer* the Michelins significantly. Dry performance is good and they are way quieter than the Blizzaks. And they wear much better. Which is a good combo, since almost all of our "winter" driving ends up being on dry roads, but when we need snow tires, we really need snow tires.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

You can get a 6 speed manual Golf Sportwagen AWD for 19k easily right now probably cheaper and such a great car at that price. I am getting upper twenties with a box at sea level with my slightly more upscale and lifted Alltrack which is only a little bit more money...6/72 warranty. Cargurus.

Or just get an Outback 2.5i. A little more money with way better residual values (only matters if you will sell it) and predicted reliability is better.

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i really want an Audi but two nightmarish summer roadtrips in a Passat wagon with endless electrical and mechanical problems make me squeamish about vw/Audi.


the Blizzak thing is personal bias based on 1000’s of miles of very excellent performance with never a single issue. Ymmv.

It only takes one drive in a Subaru/AWD from Bellingham to Mt Baker (or Enumclaw to Crystal on 410) on all seasons when the "snow" is at sea level and the road is just glazed over the whole drive... to make you go buy snow tires the next day. After you clean the poo off the drivers seat that is.

This is something that you can never, ever convince anyone, they have to experience it first hand.

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Originally Posted by ridinshockgun

It only takes one drive in a Subaru/AWD from Bellingham to Mt Baker (or Enumclaw to Crystal on 410) on all seasons when the "snow" is at sea level and the road is just glazed over the whole drive... to make you go buy snow tires the next day. After you clean the poo off the drivers seat that is.

This is something that you can never, ever convince anyone, they have to experience it first hand.

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Bingo.

Or I 80 anywhere with wind, glazed ice and semis encroaching from every angle. Complete nightmare on anything but snow tires. $400 seems so cheap when you are out in it.

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Originally Posted by nomad_games

<snip>
the Blizzak thing is personal bias based on 1000’s of miles of very excellent performance with never a single issue. Ymmv.

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Genuinely curious - what other winter tires do you have experience on?

Read up on the new Nokia’s wrg4 AS using better winter style rubber temp I believe

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Originally Posted by Summit

Since you and other have to be pedantic...

People brake with a need to decelerate at a much greater rate than they need to accelerate, thus 4WD leads to a false sense of security because you don't start losing traction under regular acceleration with shit tires in conditions that will lead to skids and slides under regular braking/steering, much less emergency braking. People end up in the ditch because of it.

Now do you understand the expression?

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Nope. Still a stupid thing to say. Get some fuckin snow tires on there.

Try to keep up with the conversation.

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Originally Posted by m2711c

Nope. Still a stupid thing to say. Get some fuckin snow tires on there.

Try to keep up with the conversation.

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M series jong calling out long time mag. Instead of hanging on every post in this thread and insulting people go get a username so we don't keep confusing you with m2711b.

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All ice tires (e.g., Blizzak, X-Ice, Hakka, Conti WinterContact) are snow tires. But not all snow tires are ice tires.

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

Yup. In fact, I *prefer* the Michelins [over Blizzaks] significantly.

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We have X-Ice xi3 on one vehicle, Blizzak DM-V2 on the other vehicle. I've had older Blizzaks on 2 other vehicles. X-Ice are wee better for all-around driving, although the DM-V2s are much better all-rounders than my older Blizzak models. Blizzaks seem a wee better on ice. Both are much better on ice than non-ice snow tires. Overall performance score where we drive Dec-March is a tie. Research suggests X-ice ice compound may last longer than Blizzak. If that's true, that would be the tie breaker.

That's a great comparison.

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Originally Posted by GeezerSteve

My research suggests X-ice ice compound may last longer than Blizzak.

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AFAIK, Blizzak runs a double compound and X-Ice does not. I'm assuming you're comparing the usable life of the XI3 to the first, softer compound of the Blizzak?

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Originally Posted by m2711c

Nope. Still a stupid thing to say. Get some fuckin snow tires on there.

Try to keep up with the conversation.

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I don't seem to be the one struggling to keep up with the discussion... or having severe problems with reading comprehension, JONG.

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Originally Posted by GeezerSteve

All ice tires (e.g., Blizzak, X-Ice, Hakka, Conti WinterContact) are snow tires. But not all snow tires are ice tires.

We have X-Ice xi3 on one vehicle, Blizzak DM-V2 on the other vehicle. I've had older Blizzaks on 2 other vehicles. X-Ice are wee better for all-around driving, although the DM-V2s are much better all-rounders than my older Blizzak models. Blizzaks seem a wee better on ice. Both are much better on ice than non-ice snow tires. Overall performance score where we drive Dec-March is a tie. Research suggests X-ice ice compound may last longer than Blizzak. If that's true, that would be the tie breaker.

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It does, in my experience. The new Xi3's actually offer a 40K mile warranty, but it's got quite a few disclaimers for that...

Blizak DMV2 only has special compound for the first 55% of tread so by the time you're at 5/32 you don't have the nice compound, but 5/32 is not enough tread for me in the winter. Unless it's the end of the season I'm going to replace my blizzaks at 6/32. If it is the end of the season then I can probably get the summer out of the tires.

I've driven dunlop's, pirelli, bridgestone's, and good years. None of them have impressed me with tread life. However if a Michelin Xi is truly a near equal of a DMV but with more tread life that's pretty cool.

A major reason I keep choosing the blizzaks is not just all the miles I have on them with excellent performance and their great reviews, but they were available in the height and section width that advantage slush traction and fit the vehicles I have. That's why I've never driven a Nokian, not just the cost, they don't make narrow tall tires for the vehicles I have.

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Originally Posted by Summit

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I've driven dunlop's, pirelli, bridgestone's, and good years. None of them have impressed me with tread life. However if a Michelin Xi is truly a near equal of a DMV but with more tread life that's pretty cool.

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Performance is close: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=205

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Originally Posted by Summit

A major reason I keep. choosing the blizzaks is not just all the miles I have on them with excellent performance and they're great reviews, but they were available in the height and section with that advantage slush traction and fit the vehicles I have. That's why I've never driven a Nokian, not just the cost, they don't make narrow tall tires for the vehicles I have.

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Ah, DMV2 does come in a 215/70 R17 (perfect for the Gen5 Outback). Maybe I'll give them a try next time I need winter tires. Thanks for the response.

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

Performance is close: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=205

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Fwiw In my experience xice3 is better (own 3 sets for cars) than Latitude xice2 (own 1 set for 4R) and also owned the old xice2 for cars which didn't turn as well on snow as the xice3.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

I'm assuming you're comparing the usable life of the XI3 to the first, softer compound of the Blizzak?

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Comparison by reviewers/testers, not me personally, otherwise yes. I may have a personal opinion in the 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Summit

Blizzak DMV2 only has special compound for the first 55% of tread so by the time you're at 5/32 you don't have the nice compound, but 5/32 is not enough tread for me in the winter. Unless it's the end of the season I'm going to replace my blizzaks at 6/32.

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Yeah, that's pretty much my strategy, although IME older Blizzak model performance sucks in warmer weather.

I've read numerous places that warmer ambient temperatures (even if wet) accelerates ice tire wear more than cold dry. The key is to switch to summer tires as soon as temps start to warm up. That's early March around these parts most years, although last year I switched out in late February due to warm long-range forecast. I also delay installing ice tires as late as long term forecasts indicate.

Ice tires are strongly indicated on the E side of the Cascades, where in a typical winter roads are either snow-covered or icy nearly every day and ambient temperatures usually stay low day-to-day throughout the winter. Ice tires are less indicated for those living W of the crest, where temps are mild many days in winter -- but they are nice for icy days in hilly Seattle.

RE: East/west side of cascades

I'm happier driving in the cold zones at elevation. I feel like it's drier & more predictable at elevation, rather than the transitional wet/icy zone that I invariably need to cross coming up from the lowlands.

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Originally Posted by Cabinfever

This


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always remember when there would be cars on both sides of the road in CO, Sherriff would say. "They should tell these folks when they rent the SUV, 4 wheel drive sure helps ya go but it dont help ya stop"

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

Fwiw In my experience xice3 is better (own 3 sets for cars) than Latitude xice2 (own 1 set for 4R) and also owned the old xice2 for cars which didn't turn as well on snow as the xice3.

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That's a very good point - I didn't even notice that test was the older Xi2. I recently installed Xi3's on our Subaru as well as our van, but have yet to really try them out on snow/ice.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

RE: East/west side of cascades

I'm happier driving in the cold zones at elevation. I feel like it's drier & more predictable at elevation, rather than the transitional wet/icy zone that I invariably need to cross coming up from the lowlands.

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Totally agree. We live in/around the transition zone (Welches) and it’s much more sketchy around here than in Govy or on T-Line road, most of the time.

Loving the Mich xi3. On my second pair, one on a Forester, now on a pilot