WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

Back in the eighties we'd build snow caves in the cornices along the ridge of Dutches. One winter there was a multiple room cave so more than one group could camp.
Access was from the BCC store, now a real estate and prival outfit.
The 9990 lift was controversial prior to construction. I attended an on site show and tell with the FS, mountain manager from American skiing and various other groups. At that time the consensus was top of the lift on the bench below 9990, lacking a view of Dutches. Wasn't done because the goal was expansion onto adjacent public land which the forest service wouldn't give the ski area.
Minimal solution would be a beeping beacon sign, with a White Pine style exit gate, much better.

BTW, I remember Ned Randolph and Jimmie with his homemade whippet for skiing lines no one had thought of. I think Ned skied tele?

I would be in favor of a gate at Saddleback. Makes sense. Early season people ducking the rope and skinning up anyway. I have lived here too long and have known/seen too many people either get seriously injured or die in avalanches accessed by the current gate. I would bet money that something changes there before the beginning of next season

For the record, it is 100% PCMR's decision whether they want to have gates open or closed. The gate is on private land and the Forest Service has no say in their decision either way.

Ben Kraja, a U.S. Forest Service official who manages special use permits for ski areas in the Cottonwood Canyons, said the agency does not govern whether the gate, which is on private land, is open or shut.“It’s entirely up to the ski resort,” Kraja said of managing backcountry access gates. “We don’t mandate it, but we do encourage the ski resorts to provide some sort of access to public land. It’s totally up to them — it’s on private land, it’s their own private gate.”

https://www.parkrecord.com/news/summ...ets-attention/

So in some ways it’s the same as going up to my ski hill on a 1-2’ dump day with a Dodge Charger or minivan and all seasons. People slide off the road, collide and deaths may occur. Similarly IMO - leaving backcountry gate with no equipment or knowledge or a partner is a bad choice

Now I’m of the belief that not all of this is ever going to be policed. Let’s examine last weekend at my home resort. Gate was closed with ropes up for control work. People tried and some did duck the rope. Now ski patrol can’t do control work or these people may get buried. The rope line is long and they found spots to duck. I can’t expect patrol to be at every point on the line

Same with gates. Should someone have to be there all day like a lifeguard?

There is a point where some folks should not be in the canyon on a pow day, or going out gates with no gear or ducking lines into big resort exposure that has not been controlled

It’s a learning experience and we all make mistakes as evidenced by my ducking ropes at Alta in 2010 or spending a night down by the river after going out a gate at revelstoke.

Hopefully we live and learn and don’t impact others, hurt someone else or die.

But if it’s a 16% grade and there is 6 inches on the road turn your minivan around. If it’s a gate in considerable Avy danger and you have no gear, partner or knowledge turn around

That said accidents will happen and we just try to learn. But policing everything will never happen. We have to learn and police ourselves. I also ask people when I see them on the road, at the gate or trying to duck the rope. But I’m just another skier trying to balance risk. I don’t duck ropes, I got snow tires and have Avy gear and training. I’m trying to reduce risk as much as possible and come home to my family. I also try to help others learn when I can

Be safe out there! Not a rant, just some thoughts from Jack Handy....


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Also: D-Roc. Thanks for sharing your experience of getting caught. I'm glad you're still around and hope we can grab a few turns together once you've got the knee sorted out.

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Originally Posted by whyturn

Same with gates. Should someone have to be there all day like a lifeguard?

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I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.

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Originally Posted by mc_roon

I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.

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i'd take a shift up there. i don't have the gravitas of some of the older, more experienced members of our community, but i would be more than willing to sit up there and chat with people and maybe drink a beer while doing it. great fucking idea.

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Originally Posted by mc_roon

I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.

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The PCMR clientele doesn't like to be scolded by locals, if they wanted that they would have gone to Alta

At the risk of being insensitive and overly morbid: leave the bodies up there like they do on Everest?

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Originally Posted by Phall

USFS has restrictions on what they can and cannot close, for public access I believe. That being said, they close areas for wildfires, but I'm not aware of anywhere in the US where the USFS can or does cloes trailheads in winter for avy danger. The PCMR gate is on PCMR property and is not governed by the USFS as I had once thought. I believe this is the apples to oranges situation. I think it would be a MASSIVE undertaking to shut trailheads due to Avy danger, and with how the USFS is funded, traffic issues, lack of USFS LE, etc, it will never be able to be enforced in BCC/LCC. I'm no statistics wiz but I'd say that gate has the highest ratio of user vs. fatality than any other trail in the Wasatch, and with three deaths in just over a year they are feeling community pressure.

I'd love to see that gate stay open, and I think a White Pine type shack on top with beacon checks, SP signout, etc would be the best option.

ON top of all this has there been any resolution to the PCMR Patrol issues going on?

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I agree impossible for usfs to control trailheads.

Also agree with a snowbird like situation Al la gad2 (white pine). They control when it opens and you have to check in to go. It won't prevent all deaths but should minimize the riff raff with the realization that the reason they are checking in is because they may never come home.

Vibes to the Utah crew for the recent avies/deaths. Never fun and with pent up covid, low snow, well. Stay safe y'all

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

At the risk of being insensitive and overly morbid: leave the bodies up there like they do on Everest?

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i'm a big fan of memorial posters - "In loving memory of _____. S/he exited out this gate just like you are doing now" etc., with pictures of the deceased (while they were alive, obviously)

People die every year at angels landing. People die every year on Portal. We would never think it appropriate to close those. I see no distinction here.

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Originally Posted by Canada1

People die every year at angels landing. People die every year on Portal. We would never think it appropriate to close those. I see no distinction here.

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Vail isn't out $11 per hour in patroller pay to sled the bodies out in those instances.

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Originally Posted by mc_roon

I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.

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Hey you! Yeah you young whipper snapper. Did you see the Avy forecast this morning? Are you sure you want to go out in those big zones? Show me your beacon and gear! Hey, where is your helmet. I told you last time no helmet, no access.

Dudes like just laying into them in a crusty “ I remember when we did this on 200 cm with rear entry.

“ Where’s your buddy! “

What do you mean you left your beacon in the car. Your car is on the lot. We know where your car is. We are trying to ensure your buddy can dig you out if we have to. Dang man, come on help me out here. I don’t sit here for the tan!

Volunteers needed
Experience required
Crusty, backcountry experience and don’t take no crap.

Perks, sun yelling at people and keeping them safe


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Originally Posted by Canada1

People die every year at angels landing.

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no, they don't

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Originally Posted by Canada1

People die every year on Portal. We would never think it appropriate to close those. I see no distinction here.

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maybe so for portal, but the distinction is that the exposure on both of those is obvious and the terrain referenced in this case appears relatively benign such that it lures unexpecting riders into a very dangerous situation.

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Originally Posted by jackattack

unexpecting riders into a very dangerous situation.

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Calling them "unexpected" is not giving them enough credit. There are skull and crossbones signs and it is very clear to anyone leaving the gates that they are entering uncontrolled avy terrain

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Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

Vail isn't out $11 per hour in patroller pay to sled the bodies out in those instances.

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People put themselves at risk responding to injuries on both. Both attract similar #’s of low experience riders and hikers. I think if you talked about closing Angels Landing, lawsuits would ensue. We should close whole enchilada too. Heck, half the riders on that trail are over their heads and rescue / recovery is probably out there every week at a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

Vail isn't out $11 per hour in patroller pay to sled the bodies out in those instances.

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I see what you did there....

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Originally Posted by Benneke10

Calling them "unexpected" is not giving them enough credit. There are skull and crossbones signs and it is very clear to anyone leaving the gates that they are entering uncontrolled avy terrain

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right, so ignorant? inexperienced? inebriated?

still, the terrain distinction stands

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Originally Posted by jackattack

right, so ignorant? inexperienced? inebriated?

still, the terrain distinction stands

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Most of the people that boot out that gate with no gear probably have no idea that mellow-looking 35* slopes are the ones most likely to kill you. However, this latest fatality was not one of those people.

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Originally Posted by Canada1

People put themselves at risk responding to injuries on both. Both attract similar #’s of low experience riders and hikers. I think if you talked about closing Angels Landing, lawsuits would ensue. We should close whole enchilada too. Heck, half the riders on that trail are over their heads and rescue / recovery is probably out there every week at a minimum.

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this is a tough appeal you are trying to make considering that you are asking a private landowner in northern utah, a national park in southwest utah, and a forest service & blm unit in southeast utah to all collaborate on managing their different lands in the same manner.

Everyone should be allowed to use explosives in the backcountry. problem solved.

Ever heard of a piss bomb?

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Originally Posted by Benneke10

The PCMR clientele doesn't like to be scolded by locals, if they wanted that they would have gone to Alta

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lol, golf clap

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Originally Posted by new yabyum

Ever heard of a piss bomb?

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nah, I got a Dyno Nobel hookup.