The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

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Originally Posted by gregliest

I gave these bindings a bit of a run through, and had a bunch of issues.

Setup:
- Skis: Rossy Soul 7's
- Boots: Tecnica Cochise 130s with tech compatible sole inserts

Days on the skis:
- Hardpack day at Killington
- 4 day hut trip in Idaho
- Storm day at Squaw

Me:
- 5'10", 160lbs
- Former racer
- Aggressive in bounds skiier (straightlines, drops up to ~30ft)
- Limited experience going uphill
- Normal din setting for resort skis: 11

The skis came back from the shop with the dins at 9, and I decided to give them a try at Killington on groomers to see how the release felt. At 9, they felt about as easy to step out of as I would expect. However, on my first run, they released on a groomer while I was in a carve. I've never had that happen before, and I've skied my gs skis set at the minimum (~6), although of course there is a major width difference. I set them to 11 and didn't have anymore issues on groomers.

On the hut trip, I routinely twisted out of the pins while going uphill. Yes, I had the tab pulled all the way up in the locked position. It's possible I had snow or ice issues, but I was attentive to that issue and I came out ~10 times over the 4 day hut trip.

At Squaw, I pre-released twice. The first time, I was traversing a chute above the Fingers with some exposure. I hit the far wall with my tips (intentionally, and not hard). My uphill ski popped off, and luckily stayed right next to me. The heel was down, indicating that I came out forward out of the heel piece (of course, consistent with the mechanism). The second time, I dropped off about 10 feet onto a wind slab that was a little firmer than I expected. My ski popped off again on landing, and in trying to ride out on one ski, I caught my boot in the snow and sprained my MCL. When I found my ski, the heel was again down, indicating that I released forward out of the binding. I didn't take any twisting falls to test the toe release. In both incidents, I would've expected my old resort setup to have stayed on. It's also worth noting that I did do a bunch of other drops that day in the neighborhood of 10 ft, and the skis stayed on.

To recap, the issues I found:
- Bindings seemed to pre-release more easily than expected, both sideways (on the groomer at 9), and forwards out of the heel (at 11)
- Twisted out of the toe pins repeatedly while going uphill.
- Brake lock is prone to getting snow and ice under it.
- Brake lock is easy to disengage while going uphill by hitting the brake levers.


Do I have a faulty setup, or am I using the binding incorrectly? Any help would be appreciated, I don't think these bindings are usable moving forward unless something changes. I'm not super stoked about solving the pre-release problem by just cranking up the dins, without some reasoning as to why that's appropriate.

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I'm the same height and weight and had a similar experience wearing Lange freetours. Pre-releases in exposure, afraid to lay the ski on edge. Seems like a lot of aggressive skiers are blowing out of these things. Sucks it caused an MCL sprain for you. Probably not the last person that will happen to. Amer should take some accountability for this binding and recall.

These sound increasingly craptastic.

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Do you have the 1st gen Cochise's with the interchangeable alpine/tech soles?
If yes then I've got a Shift customer who's recently back from his first week of use on his Shifts (on Nordica Enforcer 100's) that's had real difficulty with that boot and my suspicion is that the boot toe inserts could be out of spec. He had real difficulty getting the boot on to the binding pins to start with (pins wouldn't open wide enough) and then couldn't get the toe lever to reliably lock up (and he did know that it's mega tight to lift when new etc). IIRC I don't think Tecnica used Dynafit approved inserts back then but I'd have to try and find some old literature to support that. He had a couple of lateral toe pre-releases in downhill mode and, not surprisingly, repeated twist-outs when skinning.

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Interesting, yes they are the interchangeable ones. I'm not sure the gen, but the boots are old, maybe 6-8 years.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

These sound increasingly craptastic.

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I wouldn't quite say that yet. The AFD has definitely been a nuisance for me, but that's it. If it stays put the rest of the season it was worth the trouble. My guess is that most of the "walkout" issues have to do with forward pressure as a few people have mentioned hearing rumblings from shops that they are very sensitive to it being perfect. The marks don't quite line up when you're flush with the back of the housing (from the top down the little arrows aren't dead center on the hash mark), and it seems entirely possibly that either Solly ended up a millimeter or two off in their recommendations or the bindings are behaving inconsistently - with the standard forward pressure being okay for some and others needing more.

Went on a 3 day hut tour with these bindings this weekend, a few observations.

1. The toe lockout lever requires a lot of force to initiate.
At first I thought the first "click" was the full lockout, but after the pins came undone on the skintrack I realized that the toe lever has to be completely vertical to be fully locked out. This was user error and once corrected it never let go again. I'm using Lange XT130 Freetours

2. The brake-lock mechanism is a little finicky at first use, but once I figured it out it was fine.
I found out that snow can get under the mechanism and cause it to have a bit of trouble latching in place. To remedy this, I lock the brakes manually before putting my toes in the pins, and then once the toes are locked I give the ski 3-4 hard stomps. After doing this I never had any inadvertent brake releases on a straight 6 hour tour, even when bumping the skis into each other.

3. Uphill performance is solid. Very pleased with how easy it is to step in and out of this binding once you get the hang of it. The riser isn't quite as easy to operate nor is the binding as light as the G3 Ion. The only real noticeable downside I found on the uphill was the single riser setting. There were some really steep portions where I wish I had another higher riser setting, but it's probably not a major deal. The two incline settings are perfect 90% of the time.

4. The downhill performance is incredible. I have the AFD set to barely touch the boot sole (using paper tear test) and the forward pressure is set correctly. I'm 5'10" and currently 160lbs, so I set my DINs to 9.5. Didn't have any issues with prerelease on steep'n'deep runs. Felt exactly like an alpine binder.

I'm sold on these. It's an awesome binding.

Sorry to hear about your MCL, @gregliest. My combined condolences and thanks to all of you beta testers. I feel bad for Cody and the team 'coz you can't test everything.

So on one hand, we have suspect toe inserts (Cochise), and on the other, folks are popping out with XT Freetours (Dynafit issue inserts). Hmm ...

As far as releasing from the heel with the heel remaining down, I think this is what you described.

I recall @reckless toboggin commenting about a "no-release" heel release with Solly 916s in the current Look forward pressure thread (https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...73#post5586973). At "TGR-approved speeds", he reported coming out at the heel without the heel popping open. He surmised that the forward pressure spring couldn't keep up with the chatter.

I have no clue as to the validity of his conclusion, but I'm throwing it out there for consideration.

I wouldn't call all of the failures to pull the toe lockout lever to its fully locked position to be user error but rather crappy documentation and possibly poor visual design. It sounds as if they need some sort of visual indicator - you know - an icon of a skier skinning that we see on some binders ;-)

Hopefully, the toe lockout is more about this, than a design flaw.

While Cody and the team can only test so much, the design team CAN specify testing for an intuitive installation, setup and user operation (adjusting documentation as necessary, and possibly taking note of design revisions for future versions).

This is probably in part due to them falsely assuming that only trained shop personnel would take a screwdriver to the bindings. It's a flawed assumption, given the likelihood of folks running a quiver of boots.

As far as user operation they failed to specify adequate use-case testing. In my experience, you put something in the hands of a user who knows very little about the product and you watch them interact with it. Simple, n'est ce pas? When you've lived with a design for a long time, you tend to lose track of how a fresh set of eyes will interact with it (locking out the toe, etc.).

Another key consideration with respect to the toe lock is that for a fairly significant portion of the customer base, these may be the first binders they they tour with, tech or otherwise (assuming they tour with them at all) :eek:

... Thom

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

burrito, my comment was related to the use of a Hawx boot (thats sole has been modded to fit the Shift AFD) then being used in a STH2 WTR binding. The STH2 has a fixed AFD on to which the smooth section of the boot sole sits.

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The mod wouldn't effect use with other bindings. The part that is modded wouldn't be touching anything (modded or not) on a compatible alpine clamp.

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Originally Posted by gregliest

Interesting, yes they are the interchangeable ones. I'm not sure the gen, but the boots are old, maybe 6-8 years.

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If the Cochise boot in question is the original brown version, I have that boot with tech inserts and have never had anything weird happen in older dynafit tech bindings... So it may be premature to say the inserts are faulty.

I have never tried the shift, but wanted to throw that in the discussion.

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

This is probably in part due to them falsely assuming that only trained shop personnel would take a screwdriver to the bindings.

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a lot of good points up there, numero...
I've been thinking about a shops liability with the quirks that we are theoretically trying compensate for...AFD, din setting, forward pressure...
Assuming a shop is aware of "the issues"....what do they do?
"hey, we're going to set your din 3 higher" or do they say, "we'll set you at the chart but when you leave crank it up"? ( and a gazillion folks won't want to touch their din screws)
Or we''ll crank your AFD tighter than the specs, sign off on that please"...

this must be why some smart folks suggested don't buy a first year binding (even though this has been 7 years in development)
personally I never claimed to be smart ..

That said I still love this binding!....until I don't

I wish I could say that I follow my own advice. I have a pair of Spring skis coming in and I'm giving serious consideration to either ATK Crests or Haute Route 2.0s - both with a new toe design.

I have time to wise up, however.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by Shorty_J

If the Cochise boot in question is the original brown version, I have that boot with tech inserts and have never had anything weird happen in older dynafit tech bindings... So it may be premature to say the inserts are faulty.

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An opposite view - I had the original brown Cochise, and the original tech inserts were known to be problematic, even in Dynafit bindings. They would prerelease with any pressure on the toe and Technica was replacing them on request.

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Originally Posted by train07

That said I still love this binding!....until I don't

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Nervously on the same page...

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Originally Posted by snoboy

An opposite view - I had the original brown Cochise, and the original tech inserts were known to be problematic, even in Dynafit bindings. They would prerelease with any pressure on the toe and Technica was replacing them on request.

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I had them too, and while I never had an issue with the swappable tech soles, I was very much aware of this. Constant swapping between soles would also eventually lead to just the slightest bit of wiggle, which can't be good for retention and also why I upgraded to the latest version a few years back where the tech inserts were built in with the alpine soles.

I didn’t have issues coming out when touring with my XT Free Pros. It was always in said boots when skiing when I had issues.


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Can someone please detail the info regarding forward pressure? I'd be curious to see pictures on what is appropriate / correct.

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Originally Posted by thejongiest

Can someone please detail the info regarding forward pressure? I'd be curious to see pictures on what is appropriate / correct.

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Posted umpteen times before in this thread and am reluctant to spam. My NS two articles have pictures showing the forward pressure. I believe other pics in this admittedly very long thread also have pictures. If you want to self-mount then you can take the time to do your own homework. Not thejongiest you but the apocryphal "you"

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Originally Posted by thejongiest

Can someone please detail the info regarding forward pressure? I'd be curious to see pictures on what is appropriate / correct.

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Bottom of Page 25 here:

https://issuu.com/salomonnz/docs/sal...wtr2019_300dpi

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Originally Posted by Judo Chop!

FYI - I went by the Whistler solly shop yesterday. Word from them is to set the forward pressure so the back edge of the little rectangle lines up with the arrows. This is slightly tighter than flush back edge. And slightly tighter than a shop manual I once saw. Not sure if it makes a difference or not.

I also noticed that the rear DIN screw can be tightened well past the 13 mark. Anyone have some insight on doing this? Would I get effectively more DIN (just without the cert) doing so? Or just cause some problems?

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So you're are saying its more like 1 rather than 2? That kind of makes sense, because there are markers/arrows further in from the ledge.

Attachment 269367

I found that ^^hard to read until i clicked on it to enlarge

so adjusting past the edge of the heel piece to line up with the arrows is the correct setting

while normally a binding is set with the heel piece or screw or whatever is flush with the mounting plate, which would be not enough forward pressure

i wonder how many SHIFT might be set this way ?

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Originally Posted by jdadour

So you're are saying its more like 1 rather than 2? That kind of makes sense, because there are markers/arrows further in from the ledge.

Attachment 269367

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not quite.
#2 is the official recommended.

#1 is too tight.

what the shop guys told me is somewhere in between. If you look closely there is a tiny rectangle shape on top of the metal piece. they recommended lining the rear edge of that with the triangles. That is slightly more pressure than #2. I haven't had a properly charging ski since I adjusted mine to really test it though.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I found that ^^hard to read until i clicked on it to enlarge

so adjusting past the edge of the heel piece to line up with the arrows is the correct setting

while normally a binding is set with the heel piece or screw or whatever is flush with the mounting plate, which would be not enough forward pressure

i wonder how many SHIFT might be set this way ?

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Yes. This doesnt seem like the standard "flush" way of setting forward pressure. I bet a lot of shops just assume is flush the correct way for the shift, and is leading to a lot of the pre release problems.

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Originally Posted by Judo Chop!

not quite.
#2 is the official recommended.

#1 is too tight.

what the shop guys told me is somewhere in between. If you look closely there is a tiny rectangle shape on top of the metal piece. they recommended lining the rear edge of that with the triangles. That is slightly more pressure than #2. I haven't had a properly charging ski since I adjusted mine to really test it though.

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Got it. That makes sense. That rectangle on the top of the metal piece definitely is there for a reason. Thanks for clarifying.

Just made myself some delta reducing shims:

http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/da...elta_shims.jpg

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Just made myself some delta reducing shims:

http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/da...elta_shims.jpg

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Thanks for posting this
What boots are you using? And How much shim did you need?

I'm on my second set with XTDs. 9mm first and now up to 13mm. Finally feels right.

For what it is worth, with Alpine din soles I am comfortable at toe height=heel height.
And I am a very lame skier if heels are high. Kinda sucks to be so sensitive.

What boots are you using? And How much shim did you need?

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Originally Posted by Spyderjon

Just made myself some delta reducing shims:

http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/da...elta_shims.jpg

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ramp Delta with Alpine soles 1mm? When adjusting for different boot sole styles, the wings of the toe stay at the same height and the only the the AFD moves up or down. Meaning the ramp Delta stays constant at 1mm, but only the stack height changes.



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turnfarmer, I've got Mercurys/Vulcans which have 8mm of delta in the Shift. I like 2mm of delta so I'll use a 6mm shim. Previously ran a 5mm shim with Beast 14's to give the same angle.

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Originally Posted by jdadour

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ramp Delta with Alpine soles 1mm? When adjusting for different boot sole styles, the wings of the toe stay at the same height and the only the the AFD moves up or down. Meaning the ramp Delta stays constant at 1mm, but only the stack height changes.

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That's not correct. Mock it up yourself and see how the angle for the boot sole changes versus the same boot sat on a level surface. Your hypothesis is correct with a Warden type binding were the AFD is fixed and the toe wings move up and down to accomodate different boot soles.