Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/live/tOeSHpwA8Ac?feature=shared

Didn't bother to click your link Meconium. If it's not worth your fucking effort, it damn sure ain't worth my time.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

That's North Korea's argument: abandoning nuclear weapons sealed the fates of Saddam and Gaddafi. in reality the Libyan & Iraqi programs were ineffective and had little chance of success. Whereas Ukraine had nukes. Ukrainians are arguing believing the United States’ would stand by its long-term commitment was a fatal mistake. Last year, Bill Clinton even said he regrets demanding Ukraine give up nuclear weapons.

The phrases "NATO expansion" and "NATO enlargement" originated in the Kremlin before gaining traction in a few Western academic circles. NATO didn't so much "expand" as Poland, the Baltic states, and other Eastern European countries begged to join. They begged to join in a way not unlike Ukraine is wanting to join today. Like Ukraine they were met with similar resistance from the West.

Poland explicitly said we don't trust Russia. Let us into NATO or we're going to build a nuclear arsenal. We now know they had good & valid reasons for wanting to either join NATO or join the nuclear club. Nuclear nonproliferation is one of the benefits of NATO. Now we face a similar choice with Ukraine

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Weve already torn up every nuclear non proliferation treaty. Treaties that took decades to build, and no one cared. Not even a fucking mention.

The main thing the "this thing is over" folks need to understand is that this is not a zero-sum game. Neither Trump nor Putin can dictate terms to Ukraine and Europe. Trump can demand concessions. But they're not for him to take, only for others to give. If he wants a deal Trump will also need concessions from Putin.

The most important thing, even if Ukraine's border changes temporarily, is that the territorial integrity of Ukraine is upheld. The language in any ceasefire agreement must *not* say territorial changes are permanent. As we've seen with treaties, nobody can predict the future. Perhaps Ukraine will agree to wait a decade for EU and NATO accesion but there should be no promises saying 'never'.

Ukraine is clearly on a glide path to becoming part of Europe and there's nothing Putin can do to stop it. Trump should also restart bilateral nuclear arms control talks with Putin. In return for the above the United States can discuss easing sanctions that are crushing the Russian economy

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

Weve already torn up every nuclear non proliferation treaty. Treaties that took decades to build, and no one cared. Not even a fucking mention.

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None of that is true.

In fact, it is Russia who has done this, most specifically with the INF treaty, New START, and OST. Russia stopped following INF, has said they don't recognize but are still following New START, and threatened to put bombs in space violating OST.

The only treaty we withdrew from was the ABM treaty back in 2001 because we were looking at the needs around smaller rogue states.

The big problem is that China had not signed ABM, INF, or any SALTs/STARTs. It is actually very hard for the US or Russia to stick to a START style treaty once China built up massive intermediate range missile forces and then moved their strategic deterrent strategy from minimum credible to counterforce by which I mean they are building a massive amount of ICBMs

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Originally Posted by summit

None of that is true.

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At some point you will realize that this is irrelevant to cono. :nonono2:

Or you just need to read it differently. Cono and Putin are a "we" now.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

The main thing the "this thing is over" folks need to understand is that this is not a zero-sum game. Neither Trump nor Putin can dictate terms to Ukraine and Europe. Trump can demand concessions. But they're not for him to take, only for others to give. If he wants a deal Trump will also need concessions from Putin.

The most important thing, even if Ukraine's border changes temporarily, is that the territorial integrity of Ukraine is upheld. The language in any ceasefire agreement must *not* say territorial changes are permanent. As we've seen with treaties, nobody can predict the future. Perhaps Ukraine will agree to wait a decade for EU and NATO accesion but there should be no promises saying 'never'.

Ukraine is clearly on a glide path to becoming part of Europe and there's nothing Putin can do to stop it. Trump should also restart bilateral nuclear arms control talks with Putin. In return for the above the United States can discuss easing sanctions that are crushing the Russian economy

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This. If Trump just gives what Putin is selling, then Trump looks like the weak cuck that he actually is. But he will have DNI Gabbard, and DoD Hegseth sitting on his left shoulder in their devil suits whispering in Trump's ear to get out of Ukraine and stop all military aid to end the "suffering".

NATO/EU need to have a seat at the table and they better speak up or in 4 years time, Putin will be taking a bite out of their Eastern hide.

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Originally Posted by Toadman

This. If Trump just gives what Putin is selling, then Trump looks like the weak cuck that he actually is. But he will have DNI Gabbard, and DoD Hegseth sitting on his left shoulder in their devil suits whispering in Trump's ear to get out of Ukraine and stop all military aid to end the "suffering".

NATO/EU need to have a seat at the table and they better speak up or in 4 years time, Putin will be taking a bite out of their Eastern hide.

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Actually, Trump can and will dictate what Ukraine should do. All he has to do is withdraw military aid, because Europe will not be able to give Ukraine enough, especially with some countries, like Germany, being tapped out money wise.
And politically, supporting the war is becoming unpopular in Europe.

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Europe cooling to the support for Ukraine is an interesting opinion unencumbered facts or the thought process.

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Originally Posted by highangle

Didn't bother to click your link Meconium. If it's not worth your fucking effort, it damn sure ain't
worth my time.

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Apparently you can't link live feeds

If you have been following coverage of Ukraine, the link is commonplace and obvious.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Actually, Trump can and will dictate what Ukraine should do. All he has to do is withdraw military aid, because Europe will not be able to give Ukraine enough, especially with some countries, like Germany, being tapped out money wise.
And politically, supporting the war is becoming unpopular in Europe.

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NO

Every morning, I watch Willy oak, first thing, and every morning Ukraine loses more.

Has anyone given any thought to how long those brave, poor bastards can keep this up?

A cease fire benefits Ukraine the most, by far.

Let Ukraine make that decision, meanwhile keep feeding them all the ammunition they need. Putin must not be rewarded.


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Ukraine is in a tough spot. So is Russia. Russia is paying for every inch of ground with record high losses. They are now losing more people to war than are being born. Ukraine doesn't need a useless Minsk 3. To exist Ukraine needs to be well armed:

- A bad peace deal will leave Ukraine in a constant state of crisis and embolden dictators elsewhere

- Without a strong army & alliances no deal is enforceable. Paper can't stop missiles

- Without deterrence the country can't rebuild because it won't be able to repay its loans and it won't attract investment

Ukraine needs a just peace and a strong military. Unwavering support for Ukraine and isolation for Russia is the best way to leverage Putin into ending his war through diplomatic means. It would be an absolute disgrace for America to turn its back on Ukraine

Zelensky is changing his tune, this is just the beginning.

“will end faster with the policy of this team that will now lead the White House,” referring to the incoming Trump administration.”

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/16/europ...ntl/index.html


Thanks for good info Multiberse, you know you shit, I hope you’re somekind of professor, or you should be.

I would make no deal without a pathway to either nato or EU.

What would you expect him to say now? Did he say that? I don't know as I wasn't there.

Do you think he'll ask for the 5000 Ukie kids kidnapped by Russia to be returned?

Zelensky no dummy. He knows he needs to puff up tyrant Trump to keep from getting royally screwed. There will be a lot of this type of horseshit flattery from all sorts of diplomats and nations. Give Trump the stroke and you won't get the stick. Good for our nation? Probably not. Good for other nations? Well, they'll do what they have to. There's already a heart breaking dismissal of facts and morality to cater to the ego and prevent total loss.

Grift and meaningless flattery is cheap if you can get your strategic goals.

Should be interesting.

Nobody knows what the plan is, I guess. Not even trump has a plan yet! But something is going to happen by the sounds. The options are endless. If the Kreml has a lever on trump they gonna use it and that’s a different game. I assume macron, scholz and whoever the new Brit is are preparing for all eventualities but still gonna be surprised and unprepared. Gonna need 3 month to get there shit together and Ukraine going to suffer.
On the other hand start of winter is primo oil and gas sales time and the Rubel is at 100usd.
The us has still capacities to ship lng. This could weaken to market and have some impact. But maybe there is no tonnage available on the ocean.

If I look at the Ukrainian map I don’t see any major changes in a long time. It looks like standstill on the overall picture. Like 12 month ago the shape of the frontline is the same more or less.

If trump stops the military aid and doesn’t sell armes to the eu. It is going to be a bloodbath for the Ukrainians.
And the war will stop with new territorial realities. But if Uncle Sam wants to make money selling weapons to Europe would be super profitable and goona make America great again.
But the tactic of capturing land and destabilising a country has worked in Moldova and Georgia and in Ukraine with the crimea annexation.
The pentagon and nato will have a word too. It looks like it vlads and Donald’s show now.

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Originally Posted by twat

If I look at the Ukrainian map I don’t see any major changes in a long time. It looks like standstill on the overall picture. Like 12 month ago the shape of the frontline is the same more or less.

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Minus a lot of dead Ukrainians.

Unless we lift restrictions on Ukraine, they are grinding to a slow death.

Joe Biden will be hated by all over there in not time, he already is.

everything is going great for putin and i’m sure he will one day enjoy a long retirement by the sea and not get assassinated at the earliest opportunity.


barracks trashed a few days ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarV...t/s/bqunRVFUpu


riots earlier:

https://www.politico.eu/article/vlad...ussia-protest/


who knows if this true or psyops but chechnya could reopen:

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/31889

russia is also grinding their country to dust and despair:

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-casu...kraine-1984557

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Originally Posted by Cono Este

I would make no deal without a pathway to either nato or EU.

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Having a hard time following the arguments here. I thought the threat of NATO expanding to Ukraine was the justification for Putin’s invasion, but now NATO membership is going to be a requirement for peace?

Putin fears democracy, not NATO