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From my reading the issue with cheap grinders and espresso is course settings and wide particle size distribution. I am sure my maestro can get fine enough but with little precision or repeatability for consistent shots. The nicer grinders have stepless adjustment and tighter size distribution.
Does it matter? Maybe only to nerds.
Grinders are a nasty rabbit hole I don’t recommend anybody going down. I settled with the basic hand grinder that can go down to Turkish and save the electric grinder for drip or cold brew.
Coffee nerd here. If you’re mainly doing dark roast shots I think the grinder matters less and you can getaway with what XXX posted. But you’ll still get lots and lots of fines and a more bitter cup.
High end grinders matter more for light roasts. My DF64 struggles with some light roasts (city-city+ 75-90 seconds after 1cs). Right when the grind gets course enough clumps start forming.
Frankly, m y $200 hand grinder does a noticeably better job with light roasts.
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Cali, Don’t cheap out on the grinder. You’ll be grinding 2x the coffee at half the particle size and brewing at over 100 psi. Find a used Niche Zero, DF64, etc and avoid some frustration.
If you’re afraid of a rabbit hole what are you doing here?Quote:
Originally Posted by mud
I spent about a decade thinking I could skill/art my way out of needing a great grinder. I was wrong. Last five+ years of owning a quality grinder has confirmed my decade+ of ignorance.
How is the df64 for darker roasts? Sounds like some prefer a conical burr for them but a niche zero is twice the price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
Watching idiots fall down rabbit holes thinking something as subjective as taste can be perfected.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
Aren't those a PITA to use if making a big chemex batch (50-60g beans)? I always figured those single serve high end grinders were pure espresso grinders. Should I just keep my capresso infinity around for bigger pour over batches?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
Exactly. Once you dial in a bean you won’t want to change the grind on the espresso grinder.Quote:
Originally Posted by californiagrown
The coffee journey is different for everyone, but getting the grind right was key to my own success. And by success I mean a great tasting shot of espresso.
I have found that you have to trust yourself to known when something tastes right, but if you are never exposed to something that is actually good then you might wind up with a misconception of what good really is.
When I found my Pavoni I had more time than money (and an internet connection) on my hands, so I did a bit of a dive and found out some things that I was able to try on a budget to get the taste that I had been reading about.
I read about syrupy coffee that tasted like chocolate and caramel and then one day after many attempts I made such a thing for myself. It took weeks to get the machine fixed before I even tried my first shot, but only after I made a bottomless portafilter, a proper tamper and got my Zassenhaus knee grinder did I get that first dose of what a good shot of espresso can taste like. For a long time after that I would have a shot of espresso at any new coffee place I saw and I can say that not once did I get a shot as good as the ones I was pulling.
Anyway, a bad shot can be covered up with steamed milk, so not many will ever notice.
Great story. I’d love to have a shot out of your Pavoni.
Ignorance is bliss.. er mud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Jakal
This is good advice. If you really don’t want to spend much get a hand grinder. Something like 1zpresso J Ultra will only take 30 seconds to grind a shot and will out perform pretty much any electric grinder that’s less than $1k.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
I think the df64 does a great job with dark roasts. My hand grinder is conical and I can’t tell a difference until the roast gets light.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlh
Thanks manQuote:
Originally Posted by jackattack
yeah could be, I 've been given a cup of some very expensive light roast and it just doesn't do it for me at allQuote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
I've been to cupping sessions at the local roaster and I didn't really get it
I like dark roast, the grinder setting hasn't moved in years possibly decades, all I have brewed for many years possibly decades is the Kicking Horse Kickass blend ( its not even espresso ) from invermere BC, made from Indonesia, Central & South America beans, calls itself "sweet smoky audacious" I don't even like their other 6 blends
I get crema, call er good and that is as much coffee nerding as i care to do but you should go for it if you like
100%. Electric grinders cost a lot, take up huge amounts of counter space, and usually waste coffee because you have to grind a bunch at a time. With a hand grinder you can grind one serving just before you brew it.Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
There is a lot of BS around brands with hand grinders, but all the good ones are machined from a big chunk of aluminum and use the same replaceable stainless burrs whether they cost $30 or $200. Here are the differences I've found:
1. The fancy ones that let you dial in grind size from the outside usually don't work very well. They lose zero the instant you disassemble them once for cleaning, and the contraption that holds the burr in can wobble. (The 1zpresso probably works better and is more convenient, but it also costs $170+ vs. $30 for a no-name with the same burrs.)
2. The grinding handle WILL break off the cap over time, unless you buy the ones with the obviously stainless handle. (Or unless you only grind really dark roasts that crumble easily.) The stainless handles will probably break eventually, but they last a lot longer.
3. Most of these hand grinders come with a 5-core burr, but for espresso you want the 6-core or 7-core burr, which not all of them come with. The 6-core is fine for espresso, but it's worth getting the 7-core if you want to make Turkish coffee.
4. The ones that have 12 indents for grind size around the circle can sometimes leave you in-between, where one is too coarse and the other too fine to get that perfect 20-second extraction time. A few of them have 24-30 indents, but they're harder to find.
5. With some grinders you can only replace the inner burr. With some you can replace both the outer and inner burr. If you can see a seam line around the grinder, about the thickness of the outer burr above the grind container, it probably unscrews with a pipe wrench and you can replace the outer burr. Or the retaining ring around the adjuster will have screws, and you can remove them and get the outer burr out that way.
The hand grinders that cost $70-200 aren't any better than the ones that cost $30-40. The moving parts are all the same and they probably come out of the same factory. The above points are what's important, in my experience.
Have you actually seen or used a singe dose grinder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats
Half the size of a small toaster.
Grinds exactly as much as you dose.
From the sound of it you have exactly no experience with quality hand grinders or electric grinders. There is certainly a point of diminishing returns, but it’s not $30 or less. Frankly, if you’re not brewing light-medium roasted coffees for espresso, you’re out of your depth in regard to Caligrowns request.
For those with Breville Bambinos, I think I finally figured out how to up our game. After you already have your beans/grind dialed to your liking that is. This AM, I accidentally hit the 1 shot button. As soon as it started making noise, I realized what I had done and cancelled it. Got barely a drip from it, but I realized I may have inadvertently pre-infused things. Hit the 2 shot button and got probably the best espresso I've made out of this thing yet. Thinking I might be on to something, I did a couple more later on with similarly good results.
So I looked it up and apparently it has a manual pre-infusion function. Instructions say "Press and hold the 1 CUP or 2 CUP button for the desired pre-infusion time. Release the button to start the extraction. Press the flashing button again to stop the extraction." I'm assuming I'll be better off doing the pre-infusion then letting it sit for a bit before continuing with the extraction? Anyway, was a happy little accident this morning. Just got that last little incremental improvement I've been seeking!
I used a La Pavoni Europiccola lever for the first 15 years I made espresso at home.
Ultimately I replaced it (it's still in the cupboard) mostly due to shot size. I was pulling two of the little 14 gram doubles to make a latte every morning. They're finicky, but I loved the old "chrome peacock" dearly. Made some custom mods, changed a lot of O rings, made some good memories.
GRINDERS! Haha. Fun. Y'all certainly hit on some good points. I've been having a little showdown between conical and flat burrs at my house. Conclusion: conical machine is quieter, faster, and produces less static hence less clumping and retention in the chute, but the flat burrs, especially if you break up the clumps with a WDT (weiss distribution tool - fancy name for 7 needles in a handle) - it really does taste better, brighter.
I also believe after 25 years of fucking up espresso shots all over many kitchens in many locales, that the grinder makes a huge difference.
Umm what? The vast majority of home espresso grinders are single dose. What is your source for your claim that all burrs are the same? A coated and heat treated steel burr is significantly different than an uncoated lower quality steel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats
This was one of the reasons I bought the bambino. It’s a nice feature after you get done chasing the dragon of how fine to grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by MontuckyFried
But then the long pre-infusion means you have to grind finer.Quote:
Originally Posted by mud
Really? I'll take your word for it, but just doing the pre-infusion has been an instant improvement. In fact, just made a fantastic Americano I'm enjoying now. So you're saying I can improve this even more then? CraP. [runs off to adjust grinder]Quote:
Originally Posted by neufox47
That’s always been my experience. Depends on how long your preinfusion is. Did the shot run faster than normal when you started extraction ?
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I was planning on mentioning this as something to consider if you are thinking about getting a La Pavoni lever, so thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by lowsparkco
If you are someone that enjoys a visceral experience and like to learn a skill that is as much a science as it is an art then this machine may be for you.
If all you want is a coffee drink then a super-automatic might be a better fit.
I’ve come to terms with the small size shots and now my go to drink is a cortado.
Cheers, Darren