the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

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Originally Posted by gregL

More likely you turned into a flip-flop wearing wussie, ate too much, and ingested too much sodium over the last 9 months. Don't ask me how I know. Or you had a baby and your feet actually became larger. If it's just the length, heat the liner with a hair dryer on "high" and stretch the toe with a broom handle or something with a similar shape. If it's volume or width, liner foam doesn't really "regenerate" much over the summer, though if you've had the boot punched some plastics retract over time so a punched boot may become a bit narrower and have to be redone. What liner is this?

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First, quit watching me through my webcam. Second, did not have a baby that I’m aware of. Not sure how that would even work biologically. Third, salt and flip flops are fantastic.

Salomon S/Max liners. I heated up the toes and put the liners on for a bit with thick socks. Liner now seems to be back to old length. Then wore the boot while I worked for nearly an hour and a half. Much better. Still painful, but way better. May try the broom trick but not certain it’s needed. Will wear again for a bit today then try them on the slopes tomorrow.

Biggest problem left is the my old surefeet in there pushing on my arch and it hurts a good bit. They ground it down as far as they thought they could. I’m wondering if it’s a little to wide for the boot and is getting jacked up in the air a little pushing on the arch. Gonna work on this today.

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Originally Posted by EWG

First, quit watching me through my webcam. Second, did not have a baby that I’m aware of. Not sure how that would even work biological. Third, salt and flip flops are fantastic.

Salomon S/Max liners. I heated up the toes and put the liners on for a bit with thick socks. Liner now seems to be back to old length. Then wore the boot while I worked for nearly an hour and a half. Much better. Still painful, but way better. May try the broom trick but not certain it’s needed. Will wear again for a bit today then try them on the slopes tomorrow.

Biggest problem left is the my old surefeet in there push on my arch and it hurts a good bit. They ground it down as far as they thought they could. I’m wondering if it’s a little to wide for the boot and is getting jacked up in the air a little pushing on the arch. Gonna work on this today.

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Good to know.

Re-cooking the liner isn't going to do much. Footbed having too much support (arch shape has changed) or too wide is more likely. Keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by gregL

Good to know.

Re-cooking the liner isn't going to do much. Footbed having too much support (arch shape has changed) or too wide is more likely. Keep us posted.

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Pulled the footbed out and it is indeed what’s hurting. Not sure if the new boots are different or if I had just made peace with it in the old Falcon CS Pros I had forever, but even standing on the thing I can feel a limp under the back of my arch in the middle of my foot. You can see it to look at it.

So regardless of why I don’t think the insole (custom cork superfeet) is gonna work anymore. Trying the boot without it today using the factory footbeds that came with the S/Maxs but I definitely get pressure of the inside side of my foot right where the arch starts without it. Might be that the liners were molded with the insole in and now I’m slipping further down.

Might just need new inserts. Kinda considering just grabbing an off the self Sole footbed for that left foot.

I don’t know. It’s not terrible I don’t think so now I’m just fooling with it to dial it in.

There's a constant battle with ski boots. On one hand, using a footbed often helps with getting the foot into a good position to align with contours in the shell and the liner. On the other hand, if your foot has changed shape, has gotten used to having your arch on the floor, or has gotten lazy - all things associated with NOT having your foot jammed into a ski boot - there will be a break in period getting your foot back into a condition where you won't hate wearing footbeds.

I rag on chacos, but to their credit, they have a significant arch support. Wearing shoes with a significant arch in them before you hop back into ski boots has helped some people.

Getting my foot back into shape and redeveloping my arch over the years has helped me. Getting into the correct shoes is key here I think; I started running in shoes that put me into a more neutral foot-strike, less support in certain areas so my arch had to do more work, and I do some weight training in more of a zero-drop shoe (but not those shitty 5-finger shoes).

I'm fairly convinced that proper foot alignment and strength before skiing is key in getting footbeds to work in a shorter amount of time, as well as getting an overall better fit. The path to getting there kinda sucks though; I really became more aware of it after losing the shoes that encouraged bad posture - getting into a shoe that required good posture took a fair amount of pain & time to restrengthen all the ligaments and muscles that got lazy from wearing shoes that overcompensated for my bad posture.

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Tecnica Mach 1 100 26.5. Bought in February 2019, have may be 20 days on them. Custom foot beds.

+Heel locked - love it.
+They are easy to flex in doors but get stiffer on the slopes. Probably good enough for jong like me.

Last season, I noticed a bit of room in the toe box. Feels like I can curl my toes easily. Can rotate the foot: lift pinkie toe or lift big toe. The instep is firm against the boot: no real forward and aft sliding. And feels crushed if I tighten the lower buckles.

A fitter in the shop that sold me boots recommended shims under the lining. One shim makes it a bit better. Two are very tight. Either way felt odd to lift the whole foot. And then last season ended.

Went back to store few weeks ago to try low volume Tecnica. Feet got numb after 10 minutes. Felt snug af. Bootfitter that time was a noob, didn’t even know what shims are...

so I lost confidence in the shop and did some research. Found pads that take volume in the toe box and some that go on the sides of the instep. Somewhere (this thread?) it said try pads with duct tape before glueing. Found some packing foam and did just that:


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...341962b8e9.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7ebde3bb07.jpg


Tried this getto fix yesterday on the slopes. It felt reasonably good. I can curl the toes but only half way. Less rotational movement too. I could have a thicker (or proper) paring. Could have padding a bit higher and on the sides.

So WTF is wrong with my boots? And am I trying the wrong things?

Looking for some help with boots for my 16-yo son. He deals with a severe over-pronation problem. Very flat feet and ankles that roll inward. We danced around this when he was younger with wider lasts. As he grew, we went with a narrower last and some boot work, with his latest boots being Cochise 100's as of last season, when he weighed 135-lbs.

Fast forward to this year, and he has bulked up through working out (he's now 5' 10" and 170-lbs...and all muscle). He would benefit from a stiffer boot as he keeps getting more aggressive. On his first day out on Friday, his feet were killing him. That added 35-lbs seems to adding to his over-pronation problem and the boot work we did last year seems to now be insufficient as his added weight is pushing his ankles in and his feet out...if that makes sense.

My question is, since he would benefit from a stiffer boot, what last and models would work for 2020? I was thinking something like a Lange LX120? Am I on the right track or are there other models? He doesn't tour, so something that has a walk mode would be a plus, but not required. Appreciate the help! Dude needs something to change so he can enjoy skiing and not have feet that kill him all day.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Fast forward to this year, and he has bulked up through working out (he's now 5' 10" and 170-lbs...and all muscle). He would benefit from a stiffer boot as he keeps getting more aggressive. On his first day out on Friday, his feet were killing him. That added 35-lbs seems to adding to his over-pronation problem and the boot work we did last year seems to now be insufficient as his added weight is pushing his ankles in and his feet out...if that makes sense.

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That makes sense to me. Adding weight to already pronating feet causes a lot of trouble. Is he getting pressure on the medial malleolus? Proximal 5th metatarsal? Both common hotspots for people with pronation problems, but not necessarily.

I think if it's just pressure on the 5th metatarsal, you can probably get into something like the LX. If the medial malleolus is also a big problem, I think you'll have a fair bit of trouble without addressing the pronation directly - usually the foot starts to actually drop inside the boot, putting the malleolus into a narrower part of the shell - that shit hurts.

If you haven't done so already, a varus wedge on the inside of the heel has helped a lot of teenagers. If not that, custom footbeds ground flat with a slight lateral twist in the heel has worked for me in the past as well; it shifts weight away from the inside heel and alleviates some of the collapsing of that arch.

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So here’s a question for you pros. I mentioned my daughters new boots: 22.5 Nordica ProMachine 105. They seem to fit well but like all new boots starting off snug. We are supposed to ski for 3 days next weekend. Earliest boot fitting appointment available is a week after that. I think heat molding the liners would make her far more comfy next weekend.

What are your thoughts on me molding the liners myself before the fitting? Stupid? Just wait for the pro to do it? Or should I do it at home so she’s less miserable and then let the pro tweak and tidy things up in a couple weeks.

Ive never molded liners at home.


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1) go ski day 1 and see if this IS a problem

2) super thin socks, remove stock footbeds, toe buckles 100% open

3) https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...rs-and-shells)

4) can you get an appointment at another shop in the area? or only 1?

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Originally Posted by EWG

So here’s a question for you pros. I mentioned my daughters new boots: 22.5 Nordica ProMachine 105. They seem to fit well but like all new boots starting off snug. We are supposed to ski for 3 days next weekend. Earliest boot fitting appointment available is a week after that. I think heat molding the liners would make her far more comfy next weekend.

What are your thoughts on me molding the liners myself before the fitting? Stupid? Just wait for the pro to do it? Or should I do it at home so she’s less miserable and then let the pro tweak and tidy things up in a couple weeks.

Ive never molded liners at home.

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Have her wear the boots at home for a few hours before you go skiing; she'll be able to tell if she can ski three days in them or not.

If no, heat molding liners only does so much to increase comfort; you should probably bust your butt to find a decent bootfitter who will take a look - not sure about your local situation, our shop is technically fully booked for the next month, but there are lulls in the day when we will see walk-in customers.

The stock Promachine liner is not one I'd normally put in the oven, and you probably don't have heat stacks at home. In an emergency, I'd try using a hair dryer set on medium and blowing air into the liners for 5 minutes or so, then having her put them on and stand with toes up on a 2x4 for ten minutes (remove the stock footbeds first).

PS It's a primary rule in bootfitting that you can't expect a boot to be comfy out of the box and still have a reasonable performance fit two months into the season. The full break-in period for a quality boot (a 105 flex Promachine qualifies, generally this is any women's boot over 95 flex and any men's boot over 100 flex) is roughly 35-40 hours. For most people, this translates to 7-8 days of skiing.

You can help expedite the break-in by wearing the boots at home and doing your regular chores, watching TV, etc. but you have to start the process a little earliler in the year . . .

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Looking for some help with boots for my 16-yo son. He deals with a severe over-pronation problem. Very flat feet and ankles that roll inward. We danced around this when he was younger with wider lasts. As he grew, we went with a narrower last and some boot work, with his latest boots being Cochise 100's as of last season, when he weighed 135-lbs.

Fast forward to this year, and he has bulked up through working out (he's now 5' 10" and 170-lbs...and all muscle). He would benefit from a stiffer boot as he keeps getting more aggressive. On his first day out on Friday, his feet were killing him. That added 35-lbs seems to adding to his over-pronation problem and the boot work we did last year seems to now be insufficient as his added weight is pushing his ankles in and his feet out...if that makes sense.

My question is, since he would benefit from a stiffer boot, what last and models would work for 2020? I was thinking something like a Lange LX120? Am I on the right track or are there other models? He doesn't tour, so something that has a walk mode would be a plus, but not required. Appreciate the help! Dude needs something to change so he can enjoy skiing and not have feet that kill him all day.

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dunno if he needs new boots but I got flat feet/ pronate big time, I can't even get an edge in without a foot bed, so I use the red SOLE, to support the flat feet, they are not expensive

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Originally Posted by gregL

Have her wear the boots at home for a few hours before you go skiing; she'll be able to tell if she can ski three days in them or not.

If no, heat molding liners only does so much to increase comfort; you should probably bust your butt to find a decent bootfitter who will take a look - not sure about your local situation, our shop is technically fully booked for the next month, but there are lulls in the day when we will see walk-in customers.

The stock Promachine liner is not one I'd normally put in the oven, and you probably don't have heat stacks at home. In an emergency, I'd try using a hair dryer set on medium and blowing air into the liners for 5 minutes or so, then having her put them on and stand with toes up on a 2x4 for ten minutes (remove the stock footbeds first).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mntlion

1) go ski day 1 and see if this IS a problem

2) super thin socks, remove stock footbeds, toe buckles 100% open

3) https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...rs-and-shells)

4) can you get an appointment at another shop in the area? or only 1?

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Thanks to both of you. Yeah, she wore them for a short day last weekend and complained. She had previously worn them in the house and thought they were tight but good, but then said her feet got cold after a while. It's been a kind of epic struggle getting her boots over the last few years. Feet always cold, calves always hurt. Tried many different boots. I'm still convinced these fit the best. She has a tall top of foot/instep and always gets pressure there. She's also only 5'-2" so I think boot cuffs tend to be tall on her. I keep telling her she'll need to wear these 10 times before they start to feel decent, but she's a pain in the butt about it. 16 yo, and while she's a good kid, she's pretty noncommunicative about what is uncomfortable and kind of a pain in the butt to deal with about this issue.

I'll try another local shop. I just trust the one we have an appointment with and trust the others less.

I didn't think of taking the stock insoles out. I will do that. Good idea. Her socks are already pretty thin, but maybe like hosery socks would work.

Her specific complaints on all boots she's tried so far, including the nordica's (though she does say these have felt better than any others):
1. her feet get really cold (I have had hotronics in them, but she says that doesn't help. wears footwarmers every time)
2. calf hurts at top (calves are wide - soccer player muscles, and the buckles get moved to the widest setting, plus she has short legs)
3. boots hurt at the top of the instep between buckle 2 and 3. She definitely has a tall instep.

She's skied before in salomon x/mas and x/pros. Tried all Alltracks, Hawks, Diabellos, Mach 1s and Langes as well as the Nordicas ProMachines. Both the shops and her thoughts the promachines fit best. However, we had to order them since noone had the promachines in a stiff flex in 22.5 locally.

Again, I think the fitter will make good progress here but the covid world is making the timing crappy.

re calf:

1) if its a height thing, you can always cut them down (lange SC is a normal lange with a 20mm? lower cuff that is just cut down. you can do this with any boot

2) if its a diameter thing, some shops might be able to flair the back cuff of the shell a bit? or if the pressure is less, when you press the liner away/back from her, then heat spot heat the liner and bend it back

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mntlion

re calf:

1) if its a height thing, you can always cut them down (lange SC is a normal lange with a 20mm? lower cuff that is just cut down. you can do this with any boot

2) if its a diameter thing, some shops might be able to flair the back cuff of the shell a bit? or if the pressure is less, when you press the liner away/back from her, then heat spot heat the liner and bend it back

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Great tip. I will check that tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lvovsky

Tecnica Mach 1 100 26.5. Bought in February 2019, have may be 20 days on them. Custom foot beds.

+Heel locked - love it.
+They are easy to flex in doors but get stiffer on the slopes. Probably good enough for jong like me.

Last season, I noticed a bit of room in the toe box. Feels like I can curl my toes easily. Can rotate the foot: lift pinkie toe or lift big toe. The instep is firm against the boot: no real forward and aft sliding. And feels crushed if I tighten the lower buckles.

A fitter in the shop that sold me boots recommended shims under the lining. One shim makes it a bit better. Two are very tight. Either way felt odd to lift the whole foot. And then last season ended.

Went back to store few weeks ago to try low volume Tecnica. Feet got numb after 10 minutes. Felt snug af. Bootfitter that time was a noob, didn’t even know what shims are...

so I lost confidence in the shop and did some research. Found pads that take volume in the toe box and some that go on the sides of the instep. Somewhere (this thread?) it said try pads with duct tape before glueing. Found some packing foam and did just that:

...

Tried this getto fix yesterday on the slopes. It felt reasonably good. I can curl the toes but only half way. Less rotational movement too. I could have a thicker (or proper) paring. Could have padding a bit higher and on the sides.

So WTF is wrong with my boots? And am I trying the wrong things?

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Bumping my question selfishly...

Another data point today: added one shim in addition to my getto pads. The boot felt damn snug but the toes where getting cold. Took the shim out and it took few re-tightening after lunch to get it to feel ok again. No cold toes tho. 18F with wind. Went home and took a nap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWG

Her specific complaints on all boots she's tried so far, including the nordica's (though she does say these have felt better than any others):
1. her feet get really cold (I have had hotronics in them, but she says that doesn't help. wears footwarmers every time)
2. calf hurts at top (calves are wide - soccer player muscles, and the buckles get moved to the widest setting, plus she has short legs)
3. boots hurt at the top of the instep between buckle 2 and 3. She definitely has a tall instep.

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Outside of genetics, the primary factors in cold feet are usually circulation-related - pressure on the calf (sounds like this is at least partially the cause) and/or pressure on the instep (reducing flow of the deep plantar artery just underneath, also probable). Personally I like the Lenz toecap 5.0 socks, but they are $$$

Calf pressure? Lower cuff, remove extra spoiler on cuff, flare cuff with heat, compress liner cuff, reduce forward lean, drill extra holes for buckle ladders. I am not a fan of heel lifts, but lots of other bootfitters do this as a matter of course with big calves.

Instep pressure? Remove elastic/vinyl at top of liner, grind footbed thinner, grind bootboard thinner or cut off front of bootboard completely and grind ribs off underneath (caution, changes ramp), heat mold/punch instep area depending on tools and intermediate cuneiform shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gregL

Outside of genetics, the primary factors in cold feet are usually circulation-related - pressure on the calf (sounds like this is at least partially the cause) and/or pressure on the instep (reducing flow of the deep plantar artery just underneath, also probable). Personally I like the Lenz toecap 5.0 socks, but they are $$$

Calf pressure? Lower cuff, remove extra spoiler on cuff, flare cuff with heat, compress liner cuff, reduce forward lean. I am not a fan of heel lifts, but lots of other bootfitters do this as a matter of course with big calves.

Instep pressure? Remove elastic/vinyl at top of liner, grind footbed thinner, grind bootboard thinner or cut off front of bootboard completely and grind ribs off underneath (caution, changes ramp), heat mold/punch instep area depending on tools and intermediate cuneiform shape.

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Great stuff. I am on it. Will report back. I appreciate the help.

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Originally Posted by Lvovsky

A fitter in the shop that sold me boots recommended shims under the lining.

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I assume you mean Bontex (fiberboard) shims under the liner?

You pretty much figured this out on your own; shimming under the entire foot makes the already tight instep too tight even it it doesn't entirely solve the forefoot height problem. Get some denser self-adhesive foam (lose the duct tape), cut some semi-circular pads like the ones you made of packing foam, and stick them on top of the liner toes. Start with 1/8" and add extra layers as desired.

(If this is an MV Mach 1, think about going to a LV as well).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

Looking for some help with boots for my 16-yo son. He deals with a severe over-pronation problem. Very flat feet and ankles that roll inward. We danced around this when he was younger with wider lasts. As he grew, we went with a narrower last and some boot work, with his latest boots being Cochise 100's as of last season, when he weighed 135-lbs.

Fast forward to this year, and he has bulked up through working out (he's now 5' 10" and 170-lbs...and all muscle). He would benefit from a stiffer boot as he keeps getting more aggressive. On his first day out on Friday, his feet were killing him. That added 35-lbs seems to adding to his over-pronation problem and the boot work we did last year seems to now be insufficient as his added weight is pushing his ankles in and his feet out...if that makes sense.

My question is, since he would benefit from a stiffer boot, what last and models would work for 2020? I was thinking something like a Lange LX120? Am I on the right track or are there other models? He doesn't tour, so something that has a walk mode would be a plus, but not required. Appreciate the help! Dude needs something to change so he can enjoy skiing and not have feet that kill him all day.

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Hard to make suggestions without seeing him and his foot/alignment - generally you still want to fit the volume of his foot and ankle, and let a bootfitter make it wider in the medial midfoot as necessary. If he doesn't need a 102mm boot for his foot/midfoot/ankle, why give him a sloppy fit when he just needs it wider in one spot?

Tougher is the stance question - do you want to correct the pronation problem or just widen the boot to accommodate the extra width? Something in between? Not always easy to make this call, simply jacking up the arch to keep the alignment through the talus isn't always the best in terms of actually skiing, especially if you aren't doing it in all his footwear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mntlion

re calf:

1) if its a height thing, you can always cut them down (lange SC is a normal lange with a 20mm? lower cuff that is just cut down. you can do this with any boot

2) if its a diameter thing, some shops might be able to flair the back cuff of the shell a bit? or if the pressure is less, when you press the liner away/back from her, then heat spot heat the liner and bend it back

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I’m an idiot. There were spoilers on the back of the liner. I took those out. Also took out the insoles for today. Hopefully now a lot more room at instep and calf per you and gregL. Which hopefully means warmer feet.

Skiing them in an hour or so. We will see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWG

I’m an idiot. There were spoilers on the back of the liner. I took those out. Also took out the insoles for today. Hopefully now a lot more room at instep and calf per you and gregL. Which hopefully means warmer feet.

Skiing them in an hour or so. We will see.

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Calf pressure points are gone. Sweet! Feet super cold though. I think that’s just new tight liners. It was also cold and she had no warming apparatus. I think we are gonna make this work. Just gotta break in liners I hope.

Any more ideas for warmer feet lemme know.

glad to help:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gregL

I assume you mean Bontex (fiberboard) shims under the liner?

You pretty much figured this out on your own; shimming under the entire foot makes the already tight instep too tight even it it doesn't entirely solve the forefoot height problem. Get some denser self-adhesive foam (lose the duct tape), cut some semi-circular pads like the ones you made of packing foam, and stick them on top of the liner toes. Start with 1/8" and add extra layers as desired.

(If this is an MV Mach 1, think about going to a LV as well).

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Yes, bontex. I’ll try some neoprene with self-adhesive next. LV Mach 1 was numbing my feet after 10 minutes standing in a shop. Too much pressure on the instep.

One of these days, I’ll find a competent boot fitter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lvovsky

Yes, bontex. I’ll try some neoprene with self-adhesive next. LV Mach 1 was numbing my feet after 10 minutes standing in a shop. Too much pressure on the instep.

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It's very easy to create a bit more instep height in the Mach 1 LV by simply grinding the bootboard - there are divots molded into the top surface, grind until you don't see them in the midfoot area and you have another 2mm of space. Toebox is significantly lower, which is what you are looking for. My foot went numb in my Mach 1 130 LV's in about 12 minutes, after the bootboard grind, cutting out the neoprene and elastic over the top of the liner, and big punches to accommodate my super wide feet they were great.