OFFICIAL I70 BITCH THREAD....

Sorry, laying out the detailed plan takes more time than I'm willing to commit to this thread. Once again, I get that you guys don't see it. I've had three meetings already just today with people who do. You know what kept coming up? Corridor access, rail, residential density.

You guys need to see the bigger picture. The future is going to happen somewhere. If we want it to be here, the infrastructure needs to exist. We're not planning for 2025. We're planning for 2125. And while you might not want that to happen, there are too many other people who do.

stfu; I don't disagree with you the economic growth of the Front Range region has been vast and it's only accelerating. However seeing this happen to other places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Seattle etc... it shows how behind the Front Range area is in infrastructure. Phoenix in the 80's built a freeway in the middle of now where, when questioned why build the 101 and the 202 so far away they said it won't be far away forever. Now fast forward 30 years. Boom they are building yet another set of freeways outside the area to accommodate growth.

Compare that with Denver which has had more growth in the past 5 years that most of the rest of the western region. The investment hasn't been made, people are moving closer to the city because of the lack of infrastructure. I-25 / T-Rex isn't enough and the plan on I-70 doesn't seem to move the region forward either. Traditional rail won't work either to the mountains due to the number destinations as mentioned before, however if you had a rail system that allowed you to port your vehicle similar to other systems in Euroland maybe.

285 is another option that really should be explored vs additional lanes on I-70. Multiple paths is much better than additional capacity with a "single point of failure".

And at the core of it all is TABOR / Tolls. Infrastructure in Colorado will continue to suffer (roads, schools, telecommunications) until TABOR is eliminated. The not my problem to specific issues is why people won't approve tax increases. (e.g. additional funding for schools in Delta and Grand Junction... screw that I live in Cherry Hills... got the best schools in the state.) Paying to play is going to be the rule of thumb, it will only continue to get worse as people, business and industry continue to move here. You can't have all the increase in property value, salaries etc... with out the trade offs.

As long as Vail can continue to get the volume of people to the mountains they won't be motivated to do anything, however when needed they will get involved just look at the ticket fee / deal they worked out with the town of Breck this fall.

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Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw

Sorry, laying out the detailed plan takes more time than I'm willing to commit to this thread. Once again, I get that you guys don't see it. I've had three meetings already just today with people who do. You know what kept coming up? Corridor access, rail, residential density.

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Just what I figured. Planners with ideas but no clues are step 1 then the preliminary engineering happens. We engineers come up with the outrageous costs and then it goes back to planners and the cycle continues.

Admit you can't come up with a financial plan that works and walk away. Go fix a problem somewhere else. I70 is fine. Front Rangers can suck it up and deal with the congestion. The influx of millennials will taper off as they overcrowd urban Denver. They will not move to the suburbs because "eww that is lame". The price of skiing will make it so the lower middle class quits going. The congestion will continue but not get worse.

There is our future. 2125 will look like Idiocracy and you'll be fat happy little piggies

Microphone drop. Ha-ha

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Originally Posted by admx

stfu; I don't disagree with you the economic growth of the Front Range region has been vast and it's only accelerating. However seeing this happen to other places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Seattle etc... it shows how behind the Front Range area is in infrastructure. Phoenix in the 80's built a freeway in the middle of now where, when questioned why build the 101 and the 202 so far away they said it won't be far away forever. Now fast forward 30 years. Boom they are building yet another set of freeways outside the area to accommodate growth.

Compare that with Denver which has had more growth in the past 5 years that most of the rest of the western region. The investment hasn't been made, people are moving closer to the city because of the lack of infrastructure. I-25 / T-Rex isn't enough and the plan on I-70 doesn't seem to move the region forward either. Traditional rail won't work either to the mountains due to the number destinations as mentioned before, however if you had a rail system that allowed you to port your vehicle similar to other systems in Euroland maybe.

285 is another option that really should be explored vs additional lanes on I-70. Multiple paths is much better than additional capacity with a "single point of failure".

And at the core of it all is TABOR / Tolls. Infrastructure in Colorado will continue to suffer (roads, schools, telecommunications) until TABOR is eliminated. The not my problem to specific issues is why people won't approve tax increases. (e.g. additional funding for schools in Delta and Grand Junction... screw that I live in Cherry Hills... got the best schools in the state.) Paying to play is going to be the rule of thumb, it will only continue to get worse as people, business and industry continue to move here. You can't have all the increase in property value, salaries etc... with out the trade offs.

As long as Vail can continue to get the volume of people to the mountains they won't be motivated to do anything, however when needed they will get involved just look at the ticket fee / deal they worked out with the town of Breck this fall.

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^ I generally agree, except TABOR. TABOR can facilitate this development just as easily as prevent it. Unfortunately, while some people may prefer their backwards little mountain communities and all the developmental stasis that comes with it, too many other people see these opportunities for what they are - access to a fantastic lifestyle, and an incredible financial opportunity.

Mark my words. In our lifetimes, Idaho Springs will be one of the most desirable neighborhoods in the state.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by simple

Just what I figured. Planners with ideas but no clues are step 1 then the preliminary engineering happens. We engineers come up with the outrageous costs and then it goes back to planners and the cycle continues.

Admit you can't come up with a financial plan that works and walk away. Go fix a problem somewhere else. I70 is fine. Front Rangers can suck it up and deal with the congestion. The influx of millennials will taper off as they overcrowd urban Denver. They will not move to the suburbs because "eww that is lame". The price of skiing will make it so the lower middle class quits going. The congestion will continue but not get worse.

There is our future. 2125 will look like Idiocracy and you'll be fat happy little piggies

Microphone drop. Ha-ha

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Lol... good luck with that. FWIW, my background is engineering, and no one appreciates the development costs as much as I do. I also see the nonsensical inefficiency in the projects going on here today for what it is. Watching these crews work is like traveling back in time to NYC 1977. There's efficiency and opportunity all over the place, and the single greatest obstacle is that the people who've lived here for the last 50 years don't want to admit that they've failed to recognize and capitalize on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by admx

stfu; I don't disagree with you the economic growth of the Front Range region has been vast and it's only accelerating. However seeing this happen to other places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Seattle etc... it shows how behind the Front Range area is in infrastructure. Phoenix in the 80's built a freeway in the middle of now where, when questioned why build the 101 and the 202 so far away they said it won't be far away forever. Now fast forward 30 years. Boom they are building yet another set of freeways outside the area to accommodate growth.

Compare that with Denver which has had more growth in the past 5 years that most of the rest of the western region. The investment hasn't been made, people are moving closer to the city because of the lack of infrastructure. I-25 / T-Rex isn't enough and the plan on I-70 doesn't seem to move the region forward either. Traditional rail won't work either to the mountains due to the number destinations as mentioned before, however if you had a rail system that allowed you to port your vehicle similar to other systems in Euroland maybe.

285 is another option that really should be explored vs additional lanes on I-70. Multiple paths is much better than additional capacity with a "single point of failure".

And at the core of it all is TABOR / Tolls. Infrastructure in Colorado will continue to suffer (roads, schools, telecommunications) until TABOR is eliminated. The not my problem to specific issues is why people won't approve tax increases. (e.g. additional funding for schools in Delta and Grand Junction... screw that I live in Cherry Hills... got the best schools in the state.) Paying to play is going to be the rule of thumb, it will only continue to get worse as people, business and industry continue to move here. You can't have all the increase in property value, salaries etc... with out the trade offs.

As long as Vail can continue to get the volume of people to the mountains they won't be motivated to do anything, however when needed they will get involved just look at the ticket fee / deal they worked out with the town of Breck this fall.

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I've been saying for years 285 has to be expanded. Stop the I70 band aids and create another viable alternative.

What deal was worked out with Breck?

Where the fuck is 285 going to take you? Breck? Already full. Monarch? Ha!

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Where the fuck is 285 going to take you? Breck? Already full. Monarch? Ha!

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The magical new ski area on Guanella Pass. Duh.

I know... Colorado's full! We should all just go home!

Wishful "native" thinking.. I wonder how the original natives felt about it? At least we're not bringing smallpox this time.


Not yet, anyway...

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Where the fuck is 285 going to take you? Breck? Already full. Monarch? Ha!

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Re-aligned 285. Tunnel under Georgia Pass. Expansion for Breck along Peak 1-5.
That will fix everything.

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Originally Posted by shredgnar

Where the fuck is 285 going to take you?

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A quicker trip to Almart.

Idaho Springs is in the middle of a canyon ya old kook. Improve Clear Creek? No. Blow up or tunnel through Floyd Hill? Right back to the $20 billion dollar plan. Man your dream future is lame. I'll stick with mine where the rich get richer and the poor kill each other over the scraps.

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Originally Posted by simple

Idaho Springs is in the middle of a canyon ya old kook. Improve Clear Creek? No. Blow up or tunnel through Floyd Hill? Right back to the $20 billion dollar plan. Man your dream future is lame. I'll stick with mine where the rich get richer and the poor kill each other over the scraps.

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Don't let yourself get hung up on $20B... We're at least $100B away from the new Denver Metropolitan Area.

I know... it'll never happen...

lol.

[emoji12] not unless we develop some new commodity to make Colorado super wealthy. Legal meth? Bagged snow? Cattle farts?

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Originally Posted by simple

[emoji12] not unless we develop some new commodity to make Colorado super wealthy. Legal meth? Bagged snow? Cattle farts?

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Quality of life. The Idaho Springs express train will be two stops away from Union Station. 30 minutes. One of the most walkable communities in the metro area. Easy access to one of the nation's secondary tech hubs. Sometimes this phrase is used as hyperbole, but in this case you literally have no idea what you're missing.

So I assume you're snapping up every bit of Idaho Springs real estate that hits the market?

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Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive

So I assume you're snapping up every bit of Idaho Springs real estate that hits the market?

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Not my piece of the puzzle. But working with others....

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Originally Posted by stfu&gbtw

Quality of life. The Idaho Springs express train will be two stops away from Union Station. 30 minutes. One of the most walkable communities in the metro area. Easy access to one of the nation's secondary tech hubs. Sometimes this phrase is used as hyperbole, but in this case you literally have no idea what you're missing.

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How much acid did you do in the 60s? Utopian dream man. Did you get kicked out of Aspen?

LOL - stfu&gbtw has a really special combo of Visonary ("We can do it! Just watch! $20B is nothing!) and Elitist Asshole (It's all Coloradoans/Natives fault! New Yorkers would solve this in a week! You idiots are just too pessimistic -- stop saying it can't be done! Tabor will actually help us!). Ha ha.

CDOT's complete yearly budget is $1B. This does not maintain and repair the bridges and roads we already have. I-70 is a twice-a-week problem 6-8 months a year. The Front Range is full of twice-a-day problems 365/year. The math / economic benefits of a big solution on I-70 is an uphill battle. (heh heh). Bonding a twenty-year $20B project would take the ENTIRE CDOT budget to pay the bonds.

No one likes to hear it, but the solution on I-70 is to spread the weekend peaks across the other times when all that capacity just sits there wasting. Toll the shit out of all lanes on sat morn, sun afternoon. Use the money for modest improvements and to run sweet, cheap (or free during the peaks) rapid buses pimped out with amenities. Put a tax on sat/sun lift tickets that pays for discounts during the week. Work with schools to add 5-10 Wednesdays/year off for kids to ski. Work with employers to market mid-week passes. Etc. Etc. Side benefits are no environmental destruction of the corridor / no massive expansion of new construction in the mtns and solves the resort crowd issues. Plus it's the most cost effective / efficient.

Everyone thinks about this all wrong. Building capacity for two peak periods a week (with any type of train/road/whatever) is a losing proposition. If all the other cultural dynamics (5-day work weeks and schools, etc) are unchanged, currently pent-up demand will swamp all new capacity gains and we'll be right back where we are now without our $20B. Not only that, but imagine how the resorts look if the road/train can carry 5x the people up there on a Saturday morning.

The closest analogous situation is I-80 from the Bay Area to Tahoe. Train would make even more sense there (lower grades, larger metro area, etc). They're probably just stupid like Coloradoans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by simple

How much acid did you do in the 60s? Utopian dream man. Did you get kicked out of Aspen?

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No. I've lived in and around communities like the one I'm describing my whole life. And while they haven't been in the MOUNTAINS (queue the ominous music) they've been built in far more difficult places than this one. If anything, the fact that all the natives view this stuff as being impossible only makes it that much easier. You guys should keep taking yourselves out of the game for as long as possible. Hopefully you guys sell all your shit before you realize what it's really worth!

There's 1,600 people in Idaho Springs. You already have to tear down a third of the buildings for the rail line... might as well tear down the other 2/3 and build new high rise condo/retail for you dream bedroom-exurb? Don't forget the old-timey facade on the buildings... and budget for the sound insulation to block out the trains 1-2 blocks away from everything. I'm sure if you have enough money to buy the politicians to get the eminent domain seizures of the entire town, you can finance the rest.

You don't think your stuff all the way through.

http://www.summitdaily.com/news/1788...eement-a-study

We'll still be here when you and whatever idiot investors are flat broke from trying to develop a 2125 utopian dream plan that has no chance of happening unless the coast go under water from global warming and every rich fuck runs to the highest ground possible.

...oh wait...that is your future isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Summit

I don't think your stuff all the way through.

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Nailed it.

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Originally Posted by dino

LOL - stfu&gbtw has a really special combo of Visonary ("We can do it! Just watch! $20B is nothing!) and Elitist Asshole (It's all Coloradoans/Natives fault! New Yorkers would solve this in a week! You idiots are just too pessimistic -- stop saying it can't be done! Tabor will actually help us!). Ha ha.

CDOT's complete yearly budget is $1B. This does not maintain and repair the bridges and roads we already have. I-70 is a twice-a-week problem 6-8 months a year. The Front Range is full of twice-a-day problems 365/year. The math / economic benefits of a big solution on I-70 is an uphill battle. (heh heh). Bonding a twenty-year $20B project would take the ENTIRE CDOT budget to pay the bonds.

No one likes to hear it, but the solution on I-70 is to spread the weekend peaks across the other times when all that capacity just sits there wasting. Toll the shit out of all lanes on sat morn, sun afternoon. Use the money for modest improvements and to run sweet, cheap (or free during the peaks) rapid buses pimped out with amenities. Put a tax on sat/sun lift tickets that pays for discounts during the week. Work with schools to add 5-10 Wednesdays/year off for kids to ski. Work with employers to market mid-week passes. Etc. Etc. Side benefits are no environmental destruction of the corridor / no massive expansion of new construction in the mtns and solves the resort crowd issues. Plus it's the most cost effective / efficient.

Everyone thinks about this all wrong. Building capacity for two peak periods a week (with any type of train/road/whatever) is a losing proposition. If all the other cultural dynamics (5-day work weeks and schools, etc) are unchanged, currently pent-up demand will swamp all new capacity gains and we'll be right back where we are now without our $20B. Not only that, but imagine how the resorts look if the road/train can carry 5x the people up there on a Saturday morning.

The closest analogous situation is I-80 from the Bay Area to Tahoe. Train would make even more sense there (lower grades, larger metro area, etc). They're probably just stupid like Coloradoans.

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Seems your logic on a penalty to play on the weekends, just seems really out of touch with reality, how does that benefit anyone but you guys at CDOT who can't schedule properly to begin with?......what a disaster..

Lots of words and you missed the biggest 2x a week issue, the number of Semi-trucks fucking up the flow....even just the number of them makes a huge difference, besides the fucked up way some of them drive.
Our culture's insistence on transported goods will not change, but how we throttle those goods getting through Colorado can change.

I want my time back, and will wait longer for goods and services based on those goods....trucks should not have rights, they are the ones needing to be throttled.....