Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

There's 4 million people in the Seattle metro, which is predicted to climb to 5.8 million by 2050. Everyone wants a slice of that Crystal pie. Rather than try to reserve that pie for the rich, or people who have been there the longest, Crystal should try to cram as many people as they can. No reservations, no paying for parking. If you can't find a parking spot, you can circle the lots all day until you do. Don't want to deal with this, get up early. Or come up in the afternoon. Or ski when it sucks. Or ride the bus. Or go to White Pass or Hurricane Hill. Or move to Montana. Adapt. I don't see any other equitable way to deal with it. The only thing complaining about crowds got us was californiagrown's KSL investment to surge. I learned to ski at Crystal in the 80s but I am not going to pretend I should get a bigger slice of that pie than the guy who just got here. It's NATIONAL Forest and should be managed as equitably as possible for all users. Rich, poor, backcountry, snowshoers, immigrants who have never seen snow in their life who come up to sled only to see a bunch of signs everywhere saying no sledding.

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Originally Posted by phatty

Do we know how many of these reserved spots they were selling? Curious how many went for it. I'll be interested to see how those people with reserved spots get treated (e.g. poop under the handles, etc.).

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scuttlebutt in the b-lot facebook group (where I merely spectate) was that they sold 25 of the $7k season pass RV slots and that there's some fine print making them definitely not-sublet-able (whether crystal has the will to enforce that seems an open question)

one may also wonder if the reservation holder's camper were there but some other people were in said camper, how that would play with the fine print but I don't even own a sprinter van so my speculation is the purest kind of idle

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Originally Posted by Northway

You keep saying this. It’s a nice stereotype in your mind, and surely applies to some.

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I appreciate your historical sentiment North.

I have a similar (well, slightly later) vintage pass to Schweitzer which I think is what has driven my ski-area cynicism a notch higher a whit sooner. Schweitzer never had to contend with the public land issues that have hemmed Crystal (and much of Pugetopalis ski areas) in. I watched a family owned resort land in bankruptcy because they tried to run a ski resort instead of play the real estate hustle, then eventually sell out to a family (backed by real estate developers) who had figured out that the land was the asset, not the "ski experience". Even as they continue to parcel out the land, the experience just gets more expensive because the gentry have a huge sunk cost and the ski area needs to extract maximal rents lest they lose face among the shareholders.

Crystal is (now) managed with the same money-hustle ethos that now governs basically every ski area (aside from the weird treasures that still survive through strange tax code loopholes like Loup Loup and Badger Mountain). I hesitate to fault the ski areas because, hell, this is America and this is the ethos that drives… everything these days. I don't even know what the reality looks like if you try and run a ski area in a region with so few acres/capita and don't use price as a barrier… I imagine the experience wouldn't be good for anyone.

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Originally Posted by altasnob

There's 4 million people in the Seattle metro, which is predicted to climb to 5.8 million by 2050. Everyone wants a slice of that Crystal pie. Rather than try to reserve that pie for the rich, or people who have been there the longest, Crystal should try to cram as many people as they can. No reservations, no paying for parking. If you can't find a parking spot, you can circle the lots all day until you do. Don't want to deal with this, get up early. Or come up in the afternoon. Or ski when it sucks. Or ride the bus. Or go to White Pass or Hurricane Hill. Or move to Montana. Adapt. I don't see any other equitable way to deal with it. The only thing complaining about crowds got us was californiagrown's KSL investment to surge. I learned to ski at Crystal in the 80s but I am not going to pretend I should get a bigger slice of that pie than the guy who just got here. It's NATIONAL Forest and should be managed as equitably as possible for all users. Rich, poor, backcountry, snowshoers, immigrants who have never seen snow in their life who come up to sled only to see a bunch of signs everywhere saying no sledding.

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Yikes.

The tough thing about seeing what happened to Crystal is that even though the region has been growing steadily for decades, is that the change to the current situation happened overnight. The year following the sale to Alterra when the Ikon pass went for sale to the public as CM’s pass.

Before: parked out on a powder day by 10am.
After: parked out before the lifts spin.

Let’s strive for equitable access for ski areas on NF land. I’m for that:

Let’s change policy to cap profits.

Let’s mandate individual, local ownership. Or better yet community ownership a la bridger bowl.

Let’s get back to reasonable day tickets. Where it took about 20 days to break even for a season pass purchase. So someone who can’t afford a winter of skiing can come for a day.

What else?

For the love of all things good, let the mega corp/mega passes be a thing of the past.

And create some more ski areas in the cascades.

Yup,
Sudden drop in cost of passes, increase in ‘paper value.’

Despite a bunch of people staying on, it seems like all the local knowledge in decision making either left or was usurped by Altera. At least frozen. The never ending last minute updates and relatively drastic changes to policy throughout the process leave a bad taste in the mouth and loss of trust.
It’s not just the increase in costs, it’s the constant changes and unforeseen policy. Fortunately it appears they didn’t sell out all the RV slots. But how families made financial sacrifices to buy the more expensive passes, only to worry today they wouldn’t be able to park their RV like they have for the last few years.

Paying a premium is fine. Until Altera came around Crystal was a premium priced product. People can make financial adjustments if they see the value there. All many of us ask is just don’t add restrictions or change the product after we purchase it.

I'll eat your other one.

Also, Norse, don't know how long you were on the A-lot waiting list but prices did increase a lot under Kircher. Much less than under Alterra, but I think when I finally got one it was like $350 and eventually was close to $1000. The wait list was a weird bro deal too. My position on the list moved around a lot from year to year until I finally was blessed by the king. Pretty sure there was a lot of horse trading.

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Originally Posted by ptavv

I will eat my shoe if that classroom isn't the quid for some quo involving Crystal/Alterra using tribal resources or land for their own purposes. No shade to the tribes at all, they should extract everything they can at every opportunity from Crystal/Alterra. I just don't believe that the corpos did this for any reason other than their own interest.

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Originally Posted by Northway

For the love of all things good, let the mega corp/mega passes be a thing of the past.

And create some more ski areas in the cascades.

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RE: mega corp passes. As much as I want to agree with you; there's no way to put that toothpaste back in the tube. And more likely, many of these resorts under these multi-passes probably couldn't make it if there weren't a part of some pass. For me, the happy medium was something like the Mountain Collective; it wasn't an all-access pass to a list of resorts. Instead, it gave only a few days at a handful of resorts allowing for people like me, who travel to ski, a bit of incentive to visit various places, see old friends, and spread some tourism dollars around.

RE: new ski areas. Good luck. As it's been discussed here and in other threads, the likelihood of that happening in the PNWet is exceptionally slim. Not only do we have an ever-growing list of Wilderness or Wildnerness-designated areas - all of which prevent a ski hill near - we also reside in the cradle of forest preservation. Not only would any new ski hill idea get litigated into the dirt before any lift is installed, but any local town or municipality also would likely be vehemently opposed to such a thing.

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Originally Posted by XavierD

All many of us ask is just don’t add restrictions or change the product after we purchase it.

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That's the rub, unfortunately. The ol' Pandy changed that for a lot of ski areas. It almost became license to to whatever they wanted, agreements and pass sales be damned. Crystal seems to be the worst offender at the moment.

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Originally Posted by oftpiste

Also, Norse, don't know how long you were on the A-lot waiting list but prices did increase a lot under Kircher. Much less than under Alterra, but I think when I finally got one it was like $350 and eventually was close to $1000. The wait list was a weird bro deal too. My position on the list moved around a lot from year to year until I finally was blessed by the king. Pretty sure there was a lot of horse trading.

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640 for the 18/19 season, Kircher’s last year of ownership.
1033 for the 19/20 season, Alterra’s first year of ownership.

Alterra grabbed the $.

Definitely some funny business on the wait list, I recognized that too. I was on for many years and never got to the top of the list. Of course I didn’t help my own position as I sublet someone else’s for years.

I know the mega passes won’t go away, and I know WA won’t see any new ski areas. But one can dream.

I don't really think the mega-corps make a very big difference here in Puget Sound because I think that in the price ranges that they operate the marginal value of destination skiing isn't a factor in pass purchases. I think it's a nice bonus that a bunch of people get/got (depending on Vail vs Alterra and the new Crystal pass) but that most of the people filling up the hill (look around… it you) were going to buy any similarly priced pass to notch 10-20 days at the "local" hill and maybe there was some margin on which people in Seattle proper chose Stevens vs Crystal but that geography and traffic patterns were the prime movers.

I guess this year will start to evidence whether the new Crystal pass and its elevated price have changed things and some people are now "priced out" but I think that even (especially?) in a local environment where there were no mega passes and Stevens and Crystal ran their own passes there would still be a need to ratchet prices up, to increase profits, sure, but also to control the number of skiers. Not necessarily because the lift infrastructure can't support more (Kircher has said it can support more per Alterra's calculations) but because the rest of the infrastructure (parking, bathrooms, food, etc) cannot. Same constraints also apply at Stevens (their parking situation is quite similar to Crystal's).

I just can't see a world where the population and wealth explosion in Puget Sound, combined with snow sliding's growing popularity, and the stagnant number of lift served acres in the region wasn't going to result in enormous price increases (in real, and nominal terms) at all the local hills. The only thing preventing Snoqualmie and Baker from the same dilemma being caught between moderate prices leading to crazy crowds is geography (elevation in the former, distance in the latter case).

Season passes at Crystal were very expensive in the far distant past. If we adjust those prices for inflation, the current pass price is likely similar.

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Originally Posted by Northway

The tough thing about seeing what happened to Crystal is that even though the region has been growing steadily for decades, is that the change to the current situation happened overnight. The year following the sale to Alterra when the Ikon pass went for sale to the public as CM’s pass.

Before: parked out on a powder day by 10am.
After: parked out before the lifts spin.

Let’s strive for equitable access for ski areas on NF land. I’m for that:

Let’s change policy to cap profits.

Let’s mandate individual, local ownership. Or better yet community ownership a la bridger bowl.

Let’s get back to reasonable day tickets. Where it took about 20 days to break even for a season pass purchase. So someone who can’t afford a winter of skiing can come for a day.

What else?

For the love of all things good, let the mega corp/mega passes be a thing of the past.

And create some more ski areas in the cascades.

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Mt Hood Meadows, and all Mt Hood areas, have the same issue Crystal does with land

Being parked out before the lifts spin has been happening for at least 10 years, and has gotten worse after the pandemic.

MHM cheap pass sales has driven this. A MHM pass today is still about $250 cheaper than it was in 1999

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Originally Posted by RichV

Season passes at Crystal were very expensive in the far distant past. If we adjust those prices for inflation, the current pass price is likely similar.

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I actually had this thought and tried to dig some info up. It is hard to find concrete historic data on season pass prices but I did find an old article saying the 09/10 season pass was $899, a $200 reduction from the 08/09 price pass.

Adjusted for inflation the 09/10 price would have been $1,243.75 and the 08/09 price was $1,515.04 in today's dollars.

There are also A LOT more people in the area now that can afford a $1500+ pass than there were back then.

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Originally Posted by Ørion

I actually had this thought and tried to dig some info up. It is hard to find concrete historic data on season pass prices but I did find an old article saying the 09/10 season pass was $899, a $200 reduction from the 08/09 price pass.

Adjusted for inflation the 09/10 price would have been $1,243.75 and the 08/09 price was $1,515.04 in today's dollars.

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Snoqualmie and Stevens were also cheaper at the time. When Xtal was $1000 +/-, Stevens was ~$700, and Snoqualmie was <$500, and had more reliable drives.
Last season Stevens was more expensive, Snoqualmie about the same (without Ikon bennies) and both had highways you could count on closing or atleast becoming complete shit shows with a hint of snow.

For all the heat we give them for increases and inventions of various fees, Altera made Xtal more affordable to most people. Can’t be that surprised it led to an increase in users.

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Originally Posted by bfree

There are also A LOT more people in the area now that can afford a $1500+ pass than there were back then.

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I work for Seattle largest tech employer. I’m one of the few people in my department that have been in the greater Seattle area longer than 5-years. As has been stated, people make good money (most north of $200K/year) and they want to be a part of the REI/EVO promoted lifestyle.

The prevailing attitude seems to be “learn to ski/ride at Snoqualmie and graduate to Crystal”, which is more of less the traditional progression cycle around here. I don’t think a single one will ever get passed runs off Silver Queen. So, if the “I bought a pass since since I four” customer bows out, there are people who don’t have “the good ole days” perspective who will pay for the privilege. And I see those Ikon stickers plastered all over people’s laptops. I just snicker when I see them since I know where they will be on the weekend.

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Originally Posted by Bandit Man

I work for Seattle largest tech employer. I’m one of the few people in my department that have been in the greater Seattle area longer than 5-years. As has been stated, people make good money (most north of $200K/year) and they want to be a part of the REI/EVO promoted lifestyle.

The prevailing attitude seems to be “learn to ski/ride at Snoqualmie and graduate to Crystal”, which is more of less the traditional progression cycle around here. I don’t think a single one will ever get passed runs off Silver Queen. So, if the “I bought a pass since since I four” customer bows out, there are people who don’t have “the good ole days” perspective who will pay for the privilege. And I see those Ikon stickers plastered all over people’s laptops. I just snicker when I see them since I know where they will be on the weekend.

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Do they not ski at Stevens? If not, do you know why?

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Originally Posted by Dromond

Do they not ski at Stevens? If not, do you know why?

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When I used to work there, they sold 5000 Ikon passes the first year just to Amazon employees including over 1000 through the employee group buy. Crystal is seen as "the best" and that's why they all want to go there. These people only want "the best". Also, the resorts for traveling are better on Ikon vs Epic. Whistler is the saving grace for Epic in their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Norseman

Fuck Alterra and their ilk. Fuck the corporate grabs of ski hills. It is ruining skiing.

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Mmhmm

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Originally Posted by phatty

When I used to work there, they sold 5000 Ikon passes the first year just to Amazon employees including over 1000 through the employee group buy. Crystal is seen as "the best" and that's why they all want to go there. These people only want "the best". Also, the resorts for traveling are better on Ikon vs Epic. Whistler is the saving grace for Epic in their eyes.

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^^^This. Most people I work with either don’t know that Stevens Pass exists or have only driven passed it that one time they went to Leavenworth. Crystal is the biggest, has the Gondola, and despite being farther, the driving is typically less “demanding” when the roads are bad. The only Stevens skiers are locals or long term transplants. Not that Stevens isn’t it’s own version of screwed up recently. I’m hopeful this year will be an improvement. Plus, there is always Whistler.

As an aside, remember when used we to pull the “Crystal is better than your mountain” nonsense? I don’t think any of us are lobbying for any additional bodies at our respective “home” mountains. I haven’t skied Crystal in a few years. I’d rather go across the border and ski an even better mountain. Although WB is bound to be a cluster this year, too.

Terrain aside, 5 years ago Crystal was far less crowded than Whistler. Those differences may be eroding. That said, I skied Whistler once last winter and left with the feeling that I wasn’t rich enough to ski there again. So many people and so much money is flowing around that place. Going to a restaurant you are in line with people wearing fur coats and the lodging prices just seem insane to me now. Maybe you know some sweet hacks that I don’t.

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Originally Posted by Dromond

Terrain aside, 5 years ago Crystal was far less crowded than Whistler. Those differences may be eroding. That said, I skied Whistler once last winter and left with the feeling that I wasn’t rich enough to ski there again. So many people and so much money is flowing around that place. Going to a restaurant you are in line with people wearing fur coats and the lodging prices just seem insane to me now. Maybe you know some sweet hacks that I don’t.

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I totally agree with your take on what Whistler has become. My buddies and I joke that we save our Arcteryx gear for apres ski and for walking around the village. Whistler is a place where many people come for a “ski vacation” not just to ski. The recipe that town has put together really seems to be working.

https://blog.crystalmountainresort.com/reimagine/

Bullion Basin lift and grooming Northway terrain

How about the “Campbell Basin Gondola”? I must have missed that before.

Attachment 431829

My understanding is they're changing the main gondola to have a much higher load capacity, and then taking the existing gondola and running it to Campbell Basin Lodge to 1) facilitate summer operations and 2) make it so Forest Queen is more accessible in spring skiing sessions when you can't get to the base.

Either way, it provides a route to lessening the shitshow that is the morning lift line/gondy line at the base.