What have you bought/upgraded today.

I think the question would be do XC bikes need to be built for 250 lbs riders to be able to make bad line choices on technical terrain?

If the answer is ‘yes’ then there are tradeoffs for the 160lbs rider who is making good line choices. Last year Keegan Swenson blew the doors off most people at Downieville (on rhe descending day) on a Blur with race tires when a lot of people were on bigger bikes.

My tin hat theory these days is that the industry is slowly saying “weight doesn’t matter” and also “gosh pedaling uphill is hard here is an EBike”.

Bikes with 700 gram tires, 1300 gram wheels and light builds are just a riot to ride once you get used to them. And knock on wood, I have broken zero spikes on my light wheels in 6,000 miles of riding and the rims are true.

Big bikes with heavy tires are also fun.

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Originally Posted by VTskibum

Definitely agree with that. Geometry in particular even make xc/short travel bikes just so much more confident smashing through and into things. I’ll take modern geo bikes anytime, weight to be damned (mostly).


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Eh maybe loosen the tin foil, heavier and more capable bikes w dropper posts and 34/35mm xc forks, have been coming slowly well before the e-bike push of past 5 years.

Keegan is clearly an edge case, plenty of XC guys have won Downieville over the years, Carl Decker comes to mind. I’m 160lbs and have definitely broken my fair share of rims and spokes on <1500g wheelsets on rock and root filled trails we regularly race xc on. I still do run some 700g tires so agree there, but the alu crest or god forbid race golds BITD were terrible.

I would say your SB115 is clearly not a true xc bike, downcountry or light trail for most people would benefit from a >1500g wheelset and EXO tire casing as OEM.


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The downieville "dh" course still has 1,000 feet of climbing in it. Not particularly surprising that an xc guy on an xc bike can win it.

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To be clear, this is more like a 1700g 32 spoke wheelset.

It is plenty burly for the bike and I STILL managed to shave off a pound vs the stock wheels. That’s why I think the original 2000+g set (might be 2100+) was such an odd choice on a bike with a high MSRP and otherwise nice build kit.

Maybe it was covid supply chain issues? Its not like they specced crappy WTB OEM wheels, they were a nice enough e*thirteen alloy enduro wheelset that was probably cheaper than some DT XM1700s, but in the same price range as some other <2000g options.

Agreed on all fronts. XC stuff is certainly less durable.

The “tin foil hat” comment which is conspiratorial and likely wrong more relates to average riders buying 36lbs 160mm bikes for their twice a month evening ride with friends. Would they feel better on a 27lbs downcountry bike? Less margin for error but that’s likely a skill thing as the bike is fine. IE buy a light build on a SB120 not a SB160.

My comment on Keegan does have some flaws. I’ve just ridding with a lot of VERY fast XC people on bald tires who corner way better than I can on Minions and somehow don’t flat all the time.

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Originally Posted by VTskibum

Eh maybe loosen the tin foil, heavier and more capable bikes w dropper posts and 34/35mm xc forks, have been coming slowly well before the e-bike push of past 5 years.

Keegan is clearly an edge case, plenty of XC guys have won Downieville over the years, Carl Decker comes to mind. I’m 160lbs and have definitely broken my fair share of rims and spokes on <1500g wheelsets on rock and root filled trails we regularly race xc on. I still do run some 700g tires so agree there, but the alu crest or god forbid race golds BITD were terrible.

I would say your SB115 is clearly not a true xc bike, downcountry or light trail for most people would benefit from a >1500g wheelset and EXO tire casing as OEM.


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My tin foil hat theory is mtb companies convinced us all we need 38lb+ Enduro rigs, then pitched us emtbs when we got sick of pedaling them

They certainly capitalized on the overbiking trend with them now pushing e-bikes, but given the short-sighted supply chain, I don't hold high hopes of a great bike conspiracy theory.

The positive trend from overbiking is the absolutely massive capability increase in downcountry bikes like tailwind's SB115/120 and similar! Riding a 130mm Stumpy on trails that would have warranted much longer travel & heavier bikes than in the past. While also generally using the same bike, with some slight suffering, through long XC grinds with guys on XC or downcountry bikes.

We're kind of complicit in this. We've convinced ourselves that we need 1300gram armor plated tires & run flat inserts.

There's been a couple of 'big' changes influencing the mountain bike market in the last decade or so IMHO:
More ski resorts want to become 'all season' resorts
More cities investing money in bike parks and building trails.
Everything is lighter and pedals better
So kind of like with fat skis the downhill has gotten more accessible and well, fun for a lot of people.

So with minimal effort you can shuttle/ride a lift/peddle a low grade road/trail to the top of a downhill trail and let it rip. Add in an e-bike too and the physical effort bar is really low.

I also think the modern geo is allowing people to push a their XC bikes harder. I went from a Norco Revolver with a steep head tube to a Trek Top Fuel with a slacker head tube a month ago and have crushed all my 'downhill' XC times. On the Revolver it was pre-brake before the tech sections so I didn't die, on the TF I have a lot more time to correct a steering bobble, etc.

I just built up a Revel Rail last week and took it out Sunday for it's first ride. Holy shite, you have no idea of how fast your going on that thing. You just point it and go...

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

average riders buying 36lbs 160mm bikes for their twice a month evening ride with friends. Would they feel better on a 27lbs downcountry bike? Less margin for error but that’s likely a skill thing as the bike is fine. IE buy a light build on a SB120 not a SB160.

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That's probably true.

I really have been enjoying the SB115 a lot (and hope to enjoy it even more with a livelier wheelset and grippier tires). I tried a couple true XC bikes, but I'm not racing and the extra bit of oomph from a bike like this just makes it a pleasure to ride.

I still ride my Ripmo where it is appropriate, and it *could* work as a single-bike-quiver, but the SB115 really is more fun to pedal. It is perfect for the two-wheeled equivalent of going for a hike or a trail run...not seeking out jumps or technical descents, just enjoying being out in the woods doing something physical.

But it is still capable enough that I don't feel constrained. I can ride it up to the summit of the local mountain and ride down some of the bike park trails without feeling like everything is going to explode (and it is more comfortable on the poorly maintained trails than a hardtail).

And that's probably where the average rider lands. Maybe they dip into some harder descents (if they even have any nearby), but mostly they are just riding pretty accessible terrain and not hammering it hard. Modern geo has allowed big bikes to climb well...but it has also allowed smaller bikes to be plenty capable while pedaling even better and weighting a few pounds less for the price.

I think my neighbor falls into that category. He started MTBing early last year. Bought a YT Capra after borrowing bikes a few times...that's what his roommate had.

But his roommate was someone who goes fricking hard and spends most of his time at the lift or shuttle served bike parks (except he unfortunately keeps breaking his collarbone...).

He seems to have quickly realized that he likes MTBing, but doesn't really have the skill or risk-tolerance/desire to ride like that. More into mellower singletrack/flow trails. Will try some harder stuff, but nothing that needs a 170mm bike.

Except now he's doing it on a bike that's probably close to 40lbs with 64-degree head tube and beefy tires...

I've been really impressed with how well my 36lb SB160 pedals. Once I got some Dominions and said goodbye to dragging brakes, it floats surprisingly well uphill especially when traction is at a premium.

I've always had a short travel bike to complement it for the pedaly CO rides but for the typical Front Range fast, chunky, and loose stuff the SB160 is within a hair of something like a Ripmo or a SB140 climbing.

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Originally Posted by singlesline

I think my neighbor falls into that category. He started MTBing early last year. Bought a YT Capra after borrowing bikes a few times...that's what his roommate had.

But his roommate was someone who goes fricking hard and spends most of his time at the lift or shuttle served bike parks (except he unfortunately keeps breaking his collarbone...).

He seems to have quickly realized that he likes MTBing, but doesn't really have the skill or risk-tolerance/desire to ride like that. More into mellower singletrack/flow trails. Will try some harder stuff, but nothing that needs a 170mm bike.

Except now he's doing it on a bike that's probably close to 40lbs with 64-degree head tube and beefy tires...

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Same thing with back country skiing. Buy the gear for how your going to use it. If you live next to a resort with a bike park, get a heavy bike. But if you have to climb for the down find the sweet spot.
My BC ski rig is 95 underfoot most days and is fine when the snow is good.

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Originally Posted by sfotex

Same thing with back country skiing. Buy the gear for how your going to use it. If you live next to a resort with a bike park, get a heavy bike. But if you have to climb for the down find the sweet spot.
My BC ski rig is 95 underfoot most days and is fine when the snow is good.

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Pretty much this.

But keep in mind that you’re going to get the shit judged out of you if whatever the daily ride is doesn’t match the equipment, whether over or under biked. There seem to be a lot of people that don’t realize not everyone has a quiver of $5k bikes, it’s a bit different than skiing in that regard.

Also amusing how many people think there’s a motor on my enduro.

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Originally Posted by McShortyShorts

My tin foil hat theory is mtb companies convinced us all we need 38lb+ Enduro rigs, then pitched us emtbs when we got sick of pedaling them

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The only scheme the industry has is to make you want the bike you don't already have.

In 2014 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a fat bike.

In 2017 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a plus tire bike

In 2019 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed an enduro bike

In 2020 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a downcountry bike

In 2021 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed an ebike

In 2023 they tried hard to convince everyone that they needed a high pivot enduro bike. They also tried to convince everyone they needed a lightweight ebike.

I predict 2025 will be the year that hardtails are in vogue. Because hardtails are always in vogue.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

The only scheme the industry has is to make you want the bike you don't already have.

In 2014 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a fat bike.

In 2017 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a plus tire bike

In 2019 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed an enduro bike

In 2020 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a downcountry bike

In 2021 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed an ebike

In 2023 they tried hard to convince everyone that they needed a high pivot enduro bike. They also tried to convince everyone they needed a lightweight ebike.

I predict 2025 will be the year that hardtails are in vogue. Because hardtails are always in vogue.

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Don't forget around 2013 when they tried to convince everyone they needed a 650b bike.

And what year was it they started to try to convince everyone they needed a 29'er?

2007/2008 29er were must have in XC racing


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

Don't forget around 2013 when they tried to convince everyone they needed a 650b bike.

And what year was it they started to try to convince everyone they needed a 29'er?

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Ha, yeah. 29er trail bikes were around 2015. There was a year or so where specialized and a couple others were pushing to keep 27.5 as the main wheel size, but they lost that one.

Speaking of which, 2023 was also the year of the mullet. Everyone definitely needs one of those.

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Don't forget the whole Touring -> Hybrid -> Cyclocross -> Gravel bike chain, 'cuase you can market to mountain bikers and roadies with the same product.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toast2266

The only scheme the industry has is to make you want the bike you don't already have.

In 2014 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a fat bike.

In 2017 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a plus tire bike

In 2019 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed an enduro bike

In 2020 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed a downcountry bike

In 2021 they tried hard to convince everyone they needed an ebike

In 2023 they tried hard to convince everyone that they needed a high pivot enduro bike. They also tried to convince everyone they needed a lightweight ebike.

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However, a counterpoint:

In 2012, I bought a 27.5…because they were finally better than what I had cobbled together.
In 2014, wifey bought me a fat bike…because they were finally better that what I had cobbled together.
In 2017, I bought an Enduro Altitude…Because it was better than all the stuff I had put on my ‘13 Altitude to make it capable. I never bought a plus bike, because those tires always felt bouncy and shitty.
In 2020 I got a ‘Downcountry’ bike, because the Enduro bike was kind of a pig for 4K + days, and they finally put a reasonable HTA on a short travel bike. (I really ended up disliking it, SB 100)
‘21 Bought a better Altitude, (started as ‘29, but very quickly became mullet) because it finally climbed better than anything I had ridden, but still shredded downhill.
‘22 also bought an Element, but same problem, blew through the travel on every ride.
‘22 bought an E-Bike, because the Rocky Power play just kicked so much ass.
‘23 also built up a 150/160 Instinctitude, which actually was what I wanted the Element to be, but wasn’t.
Still have never ridden a high pivot enduro, however, the Rocky Powerplay is a ‘mid-high Pivot, I guess.
In summary, the bikes got much, much, better, and as such, that created the desire far more than any industry push or campaign.

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Originally Posted by rideit

However, a counterpoint:

In 2012, I bought a 27.5…because they were finally better than what I had cobbled together.
In 2014, wifey bought me a fat bike…because they were finally better that what I had cobbled together.
In 2017, I bought an Enduro Altitude…Because it was better than all the stuff I had put on my ‘13 Altitude to make it capable. I never bought a plus bike, because those tires always felt bouncy and shitty.
In 2020 I got a ‘Downcountry’ bike, because the Enduro bike was kind of a pig for 4K + days, and they finally put a reasonable HTA on a short travel bike. (I really ended up disliking it, SB 100)
‘21 Bought a better Altitude, (started as ‘29, but very quickly became mullet) because it finally climbed better than anything I had ridden, but still shredded downhill.
‘22 also bought an Element, but same problem, blew through the travel on every ride.
‘22 bought an E-Bike, because the Rocky Power play just kicked so much ass.
‘23 also built up a 150/160 Instinctitude, which actually was what I wanted the Element to be, but wasn’t.
Still have never ridden a high pivot enduro, however, the Rocky Powerplay is a ‘mid-high Pivot, I guess.
In summary, the bikes got much, much, better, and as such, that created the desire far more than any industry push or campaign.

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What about the gravel bike? Industry pushed or rugged individualist?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by skinipenem

What about the gravel bike? Industry pushed or rugged individualist?

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Good point, but in fairness, trying not to get hit by cars drifting onto shoulders while road riding was probably the biggest gravel bike sell for hard core riders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rideit

In summary, the bikes got much, much, better, and as such, that created the desire far more than any industry push or campaign.

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Definitely. My bike buying timeline doesn't look too much different than yours (except for the fat bike. I have my standards.)

The industry has it's fads. But the industry also makes some sweet bikes, and sweet bikes are fun. Regardless of which way the industry's winds are blowing at any given time, sometimes it's just nice to change things up. Buy a short travel rig and go fast uphill. Or buy a long travel rig and go fast downhill. Or be a good consumer and buy both.

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Oh, yeah, I got a gravel bike and a road bike in 2015, for the above reasons. If you didn’t want to ride the same four roads out here every single time, you got a gravel bike.
And now that’s the only one I ride, road or not.
Just so, so much better.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Regardless of which way the industry's winds are blowing at any given time, sometimes it's just nice to change things up. Buy a short travel rig and go fast uphill. Or buy a long travel rig and go fast downhill. Or be a good consumer and buy both.

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And working in a shop, flipping them used to be easy (and usually covered 2/3’s of the cost, after selling).
A little harder right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rideit

Oh, yeah, I got a gravel bike and a road bike in 2015, for the above reasons. If you didn’t want to ride the same four roads out here every single time, you got a gravel bike.
And now that’s the only one I ride, road or not.
Just so, so much better.

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Around that point I had 4 different drop bar bikes...CX race bike, road, commuter (ss/fg), new/different CX bike. Plus a non-drop "grocery getter" which was different from the commuter--had a huge basket and only really used around the neighborhood.

I didn't do any road racing, but it wasn't crazy to have a cheap crit bike, nice road race bike, and a comfy training bike on top of all of that...plus if you want to own any more oddball things like a track bike or TT bike.

Now one of those CX bikes is my gravel bike. And my road bike with a tire swap. And my trainer bike. All the rest were sold off.

I bought a bunch of radios for the enduro series. We have licensed GMRS radios for communicating across the course, but folks operating the backup timing at stage finishes usually have one person yell out plate numbers to the other volunteer. No more yelling.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3362ec99c3.jpg

Recent upgrades:

EXT Era fork from V2 to V2.1 (was originally a V1), including new lowers with floating axle. Expensive upgrade but it's finally the fork I always hoped it would be. It was good before but never really great, disappointing at the price point. Now it's actually the best feeling fork I've ever owned. Very sensitive with no breakaway force whatsoever but still very supportive in the mid-stroke with great bottom out resistance. Of course for the initial cost and then the upgrades I could have had the new Push fork but oh well. My friend is Suspension Syndicate/EXT USA. I get a modest discount and I'm happy to support his business.

210mm 1Up V2 dropper on sale. Perfect length, couldn't go any longer without buzzing the seat at full compression. The increased drop is a noticeable upgrade from the 170mm I had. No more bumping my butt when I wanna suck it up in the air, can get lower in the steeps etc.

Garbaruk 30t chainring to compliment the eeWings I got last fall. Very high quality machining and tooth profile tech. Garbaruk also uses a variable offset based on ring size. Smaller ring, more offset. So the 30t has 4.6mm of offset vs. standard boost 3mm. Fits perfect with a 1mm gap to the chainstay without any drive side spacers, the chainline is great, and it's really silent and smooth. Couldn't find that particular one stateside though so had to order from them direct and shipping from Poland is spendy so this was the most expensive chainring I've ever bought. Oh well. As an aside, they're actually a Ukrainian company that had to move to Poland to stay in business when the war broke out so happy to support them.

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Originally Posted by beaterdit

Garbaruk 30t chainring to compliment the eeWings I got last fall. Very high quality machining and tooth profile tech. Garbaruk also uses a variable offset based on ring size. Smaller ring, more offset. So the 30t has 4.6mm of offset vs. standard boost 3mm. Fits perfect with a 1mm gap to the chainstay without any drive side spacers, the chainline is great, and it's really silent and smooth. Couldn't find that particular one stateside though so had to order from them direct and shipping from Poland is spendy so this was the most expensive chainring I've ever bought. Oh well. As an aside, they're actually a Ukrainian company that had to move to Poland to stay in business when the war broke out so happy to support them.

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I was a Garbaruk dealer back when they first came out with their SRAM 11sp XX1 cassette clone-but-better. They initially had some issues with creaking but overall, did some really nice work.
They really seemed like a good company and I'm glad they appear to be doing well.

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Originally Posted by sfotex

I just built up a Revel Rail last week and took it out Sunday for it's first ride. Holy shite, you have no idea of how fast your going on that thing. You just point it and go...

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Nice! Did you put a 160 or a 170 fork on it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sfotex

I just built up a Revel Rail last week and took it out Sunday for it's first ride. Holy shite, you have no idea of how fast your going on that thing. You just point it and go...

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Nice! Did you put a 160 or a 170 fork on it?

I am going to ride my Hightower for another season after this one, but the Rail would be on the short list for next bike. I really hope the 140 to 150 rear travel bikes continue to develop and pedal better and better, and go downhill better and better.

Would be great if someday a 150 bike can pedal like a 130 and go down like a 170 :wink:

have recently bought some dumb shit i don't need like handlebars for the hei hei and a power meter for the trek

Attachment 494034

Attachment 494035

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Nice! Did you put a 160 or a 170 fork on it?

I am going to ride my Hightower for another season after this one, but the Rail would be on the short list for next bike. I really hope the 140 to 150 rear travel bikes continue to develop and pedal better and better, and go downhill better and better.

Would be great if someday a 150 bike can pedal like a 130 and go down like a 170 :wink:

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I also have a Rail, and can echo the speed thing. I'm a hack of a rider and even my dumb ass felt like it could just monster truck anything at speed. I think it pedals pretty alright, especially considering how it does going downhill.

Finally got rid of the performance fox suspension on my new altitude, now with a Zeb ultimate and Vivid ultimate. It’s true what all the reviews are saying, the vivid is probably the best burly air shock out right now, it really does have coil characteristics while still being lively like air.

Attachment 494162

Mrs Roxtar has been lusting after the new Switchblade ever since she test rode one earlier this year.
We planned on waiting till the end of the season but couldn't resist the last XS size 35th Anniversary Talon version available.

Attachment 494622

Attachment 494623

And a shot of the original Talon built by Chris Cocalis 35 years ago:

Attachment 494624

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Nice! Did you put a 160 or a 170 fork on it?

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Fork is 170, but I got a 160 airshaft to drop it a bit but I will probably do that when I service the fork next. Climbs pretty well if you stay seated on fire roads and mellow trails. Rips on the downhills of course. Hope to get it into some more chunky stuff as the mountains melt out around here.

My derailleur is bent to shit on my 2018 rm instinct. It shifts like shit and needs to be adjusted every ride. I am still in love with this bike and upgrading hasn't even come across my mind even though I have never even serviced the suspension (shops want ~$500 which is crazy and I don't want to be without a bike).

I am thinking of treating the old girl to a present. What are everyone's opinions on the gx axs upgrade kits? Currently it has 10-50t gx eagle. Kind of thinking of getting a 10-52t if I upgrade since it is on the original chainring. Bike is at 2k miles ~210 hours.

I don't think it has the universal hanger so transmission would be out of the question.

Just picked up from the wheelbuilder in town... Vespers, WAO Factions, Sapim D-LightsAttachment 494627

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toastybroski

My derailleur is bent to shit on my 2018 rm instinct. It shifts like shit and needs to be adjusted every ride. I am still in love with this bike and upgrading hasn't even come across my mind even though I have never even serviced the suspension (shops want ~$500 which is crazy and I don't want to be without a bike).

I am thinking of treating the old girl to a present. What are everyone's opinions on the gx axs upgrade kits? Currently it has 10-50t gx eagle. Kind of thinking of getting a 10-52t if I upgrade since it is on the original chainring. Bike is at 2k miles ~210 hours.

I don't think it has the universal hanger so transmission would be out of the question.

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Personally I'd rather have a mechanical X01 drivetrain than a GX AXS. Aside from the fact that I hate having to charge batteries for my bike to shift, I found the AXS clutch to be far too weak. X01 mechanical shifts nice, weighs less, costs less, and you don't have to charge it.

Yeah, I'm not sold on my axs xx1. It works, but so does cable. I am sold on the axs dropper. Something about that is just better imo