Fu*king Cyclists

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

you cannot make vehicle traffic worse by reducing lanes or lane width

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City planners are reducing lanes and lane width throughout SLC for bike paths. I can think of 5 major projects that have done this in the last 2 years. A couple more are happening now. So you definitely can.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Why? Because there wasn't a fucking bike to be seen anywhere and it is an exercise in futility. People need to realize that bikes are all fine and dandy in limited situations, and those limited situations are not the majority of the time, notably in the Northeast when the weather sucks for biking 200 days a year. You can come up with all the bullshit excuses you want about planners, or "it just needs to be engineered better" or whatever, but that is the real reason.

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Boston doesn't have notably worse weather than Copenhagen -- about the same, in fact. But Copenhagen is building infrastructure like this and has cycling mode share of of 26-37% vs. Boston at 1-2%.

Goes without saying that when your road network is dangerous and unwelcoming for anyone not in a car that everyone wants to use a car. Even the Dutch were car-focused in the post-war era before making a conscious decision to prioritize cycling/cycling infrastructure. "There was a time, in the 1950s and 60s, when cyclists were under severe threat of being expelled from Dutch cities by the growing number of cars." Paris went through a similar change. Cars dominating urban centers isn't the only option.

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Originally Posted by old goat

I'm shocked that the guy thought he was in the right. He cut into a line of cars waiting to go instead of getting in line behind the cars that were there before him.

On a related note--construction on a 2 lane road with a flagger. If I'm on a bike I go last, after the cars, when it's our turn to go, on the theory that I'll be the slowest and not wanting to hold up a long line. I've seen cyclists pedal by the whole line up to the head of the line and proceed to hold up everyone. Wrong IMO.

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I usually don't watch his videos, but I watched part of this one. Dude needs to smoke some weed and chill TFO.

Completely agree re: flaggers and situations like filtering to the front at a red light (when sharing the lane, that is -- fine with a bike lane). It's pointless to force those drivers to pass you, and some of them may resent it and be moved to do something about it. Don't poke the bear.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

A large reason for subpar bike infrastructure is that the pedestrian experience is prioritized. There is only limited ROW width to work with, you cannot make vehicle traffic worse by reducing lanes or lane width, and so you are left with limited space to install pedestrian focused infrastructure or cyclist focused infrastructure. Most places will prioritize the pedestrian experience because foot traffic drives business to the shops, which drives tax dollars and votes. So to upgrade cyclist infrastructure in most places you would have to prioritize the needs of the smallest user at the expense of the majority users, and the moneymakers.

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I would say "you cannot make vehicle traffic worse by reducing lanes or lane width" contains a whole bunch of assumptions that need to be examined. 1) of course you can, it just depends on your priorities 2) cars are like a gas that expand/contract to fill available space, no guarantee that traffic on a given road will be worse after lanes are removed / narrowed, 3) narrow lanes are actually great in urban areas because it's an effective way to get people to slow down, vs. 14-foot lanes and a posted 25 mph speed limit, which everyone will ignore.

Re: the spending argument, that comes up a lot, but it's actually not true:
People Walking And Cycling Spend More In London’s Shops Than Motorists
Cyclists and Pedestrians Can End Up Spending More Each Month Than Drivers

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

I would say "you cannot make vehicle traffic worse by reducing lanes or lane width" contains a whole bunch of assumptions that need to be examined. 1) of course you can, it just depends on your priorities 2) cars are like a gas that expand/contract to fill available space, no guarantee that traffic on a given road will be worse after lanes are removed / narrowed, 3) narrow lanes are actually great in urban areas because it's an effective way to get people to slow down, vs. 14-foot lanes and a posted 25 mph speed limit, which everyone will ignore.

Re: the spending argument, that comes up a lot, but it's actually not true:
People Walking And Cycling Spend More In London’s Shops Than Motorists
Cyclists and Pedestrians Can End Up Spending More Each Month Than Drivers

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Actually yes, there is a guarantee that traffic will be worse if you do certain things like reduce lane widths, or remove lanes altogether. It will be worse for a while and it will typically force traffic to find other routes (usually lesser side streets which creates another problem). Most urban areas already have lane widths less than 12', and any less than 11' or so and you cannot get the design vehicle to properly make turns without going into oncoming lanes and/or running over curbs. i said pedestrians spend more than cyclists, not that drivers spend more than cyclists- which is why pedestrian facilities are prioritized.

IMO/IME, the problem is that americans are lazy fatties who rely on cars to get around and is part of our culture (possible, but hard to change), geographically we have further to go to get what we want which makes driving the best option, and our cars and trucks are fucking huge compared to europe making larger motor vehicle facilities neccessary.

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Originally Posted by The SnowShow

And here I thought everyone in MN was so nice!

https://youtu.be/MtWmG1PPKy8?si=gdPIl1SPzvqt_FAs

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OK, I'm now back to despising that bike guy. He's a dumb piece of shit.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Actually yes, there is a guarantee that traffic will be worse if you do certain things like reduce lane widths, or remove lanes altogether. It will be worse for a while and it will typically force traffic to find other routes (usually lesser side streets which creates another problem). Most urban areas already have lane widths less than 12', and any less than 11' or so and you cannot get the design vehicle to properly make turns without going into oncoming lanes and/or running over curbs. i said pedestrians spend more than cyclists, not that drivers spend more than cyclists- which is why pedestrian facilities are prioritized.

IMO/IME, the problem is that americans are lazy fatties who rely on cars to get around and is part of our culture (possible, but hard to change), geographically we have further to go to get what we want which makes driving the best option, and our cars and trucks are fucking huge compared to europe making larger motor vehicle facilities neccessary.

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All reasonable points. But if both pedestrians and cyclists spend more than drivers, doesn't it make sense to allocate more roadway to cyclists? If shopkeepers want a street full of people window shopping, seems they're more likely to get it with two slow lanes of traffic, a cycleway, and generous sidewalks than with generous sidewalks and four lanes of traffic. From what I hear though, most retail owners (at least in Portland) don't agree with that, which I don't really understand. It seems obvious to me that roads like Powell Blvd. in Portland are totally uninviting to shoppers. You might drive there to shop in a specific store, but you're not going to go browse next door.

The culture thing is probably the biggest obstacle. It's really hard for people to imagine any other lifestyle than the car-dependent one we've wedged ourselves into, even though it's sub-optimal in many ways. Sadly, inertia is strong and the gas/driving lobby has a lot more resources to sway opinion than the bike/walk lobby, so I don't expect things in the US to change meaningfully in my lifetime. Just can't keep myself from pissing in the wind every once in awhile.

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Goes without saying that when your road network is dangerous and unwelcoming for anyone not in a car that everyone wants to use a car. Even the Dutch were car-focused in the post-war era before making a conscious decision to prioritize cycling/cycling infrastructure. "There was a time, in the 1950s and 60s, when cyclists were under severe threat of being expelled from Dutch cities by the growing number of cars." Paris went through a similar change. Cars dominating urban centers isn't the only option.

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Can't emphasis this enough. We put 5' un-buffered bike lanes on 4 lane 35-45 MPH signed urban arterials. It's so dumb. Only a few people are going to use those facilities.

People in cars are surrounded by a metal cage that allows them to engage in all sorts of behavior they would not do on a bike, and bicyclists rightly do not use bike infrastructure that doesn't buffer them appropriately from vehicles.

Build dedicated, protected bike infrastructure or force vehicles to slow way down and not be the priority and surprise, you get bike AND pedestrian traffic.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

All reasonable points. But if both pedestrians and cyclists spend more than drivers, doesn't it make sense to allocate more roadway to cyclists? If shopkeepers want a street full of people window shopping, seems they're more likely to get it with two slow lanes of traffic, a cycleway, and generous sidewalks than with generous sidewalks and four lanes of traffic. .

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I thought biz owners usually argue that they want parking on street in front for customers, instead of bike lanes.

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Originally Posted by muted reborn

I thought biz owners usually argue that they want parking on street in front for customers, instead of bike lanes.

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dont get me started on Woonerfs.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

dont get me started on Woonerfs.

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Now I want to ask you all about woonerfs. Don't they work as intended?

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Originally Posted by Boosh

I ride to work in Boston 3-4 days a week, typically year round unless its actively raining/snowing or below 20 degrees, but I know that's pretty rare and most people only bike commute during summer months when it's nice out. The majority of my ride is actually thru Cambridge and they have been building a lot of bike lanes over the past ~5 years; I think its generally accepted that Cambridge/Somverville are more bike friendly than downtown Boston.

I do agree there is minimal regard for typical bike lanes downtown, but it's always a fuck show and people double park in places where there's no bike lane anyways. The new(ish) Bike/Bus lanes are kind of a joke, they painted them all red and people drive in them like normal lanes regardless, but I will say the city/region is getting smart with a lot more fully divided lanes, and barricades/curbs, etc.

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I grew up near Harvard Sq and every time I go home I laugh at the clusterfuck that was designed and built on Brattle St leaving the Sq…basically the stretch starting at Brattle Sq heading west. What used to be two lanes of one way traffic and two lanes of parking is now a two way bike lane next to the sidewalk, one lane of parking, one lane of traffic and then another lane of parking. The parking meters for the parking are across the bike lane at the sidewalk, so you have the potential for people to crash into bikers flying by both directions while they cross between parked cars to pay the meter. Also, when a car is waiting for another car to pull out of a space, all the traffic backs up for blocks waiting because now there is no second lane to use. It’s fucking hilarious. Horns blaring, people yelling…all waiting for one car to get out of the space then the other to parallel park.

Now I’m not saying it’s bad for bikers at all, but it’s pissed off everyone I know who still lives there.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

Now I want to ask you all about woonerfs. Don't they work as intended?

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they are unfunctional for both cyclists and motorists. They just mostly turn into pedestrian plazas and unless you have good alleys at the rear, receiving deliveries is crappy for store owners. There is nothing wrong with them, but they arent the "example of pedestrian-vehicle harmony" that they get sold as. Also, they get fucking butchered and revised into oblivion during jurisdictional review which results in a product half as aesthetic and half as functional.


Something most people dont take into account is that roads are meant for more than just people. They are used for utilities (above and below grade), and in many areas they are used as stormwater retention (desert areas and places in the SE design for that).

On ya left!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cxp7-Xps...RlODBiNWFlZA==

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Bloody hell .....
And he didn't even spew profanities!

great bike handling skills, but dumb to put yourself in that spot

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

great bike handling skills, but dumb to put yourself in that spot

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Agreed - lane-splitting on a road bike seems... inadvisable. :D

Not as inadvisable as doing so on a e-unicycle, I shit thee not.

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Originally Posted by PB

Not as inadvisable as doing so on a e-unicycle, I shit thee not.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/e7Fdp0v1fZgti/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by PB

Not as inadvisable as doing so on a e-unicycle, I shit thee not.

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I would pay money to see an e-unicycle squirt through that same situation unscathed - I have the impression they're not that nimble. Good thing they compensate for that by going fast as hell and wearing all black gear.

Oh, I don't think our local Evil Kneivel on a e-uni would have handled that situation, but they still are cause for serious dismay and shock.
And yes, they are fully tricked out in black leather; knee, wrist and elbow pads; and full face helmet. It really is impressive how quickly they can control their speed with leaning forwards, back wards, but seem like a looming Darwin Award for sure.

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Originally Posted by dan_pdx

great bike handling skills, but dumb to put yourself in that spot

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You may know this already, but that guy is a "pro" fixie rider. There are a ton of videos on youtube of followcams showing "pro" fixie riders (bike messengers) blasting down mountain roads, and through traffic barely avoiding collisions at +30mph. It is no doubt impressive- both the riders and the followcam guy.

https://youtu.be/dsd0-2Vi4S0?si=73t4GDyv-0aCQYl4&t=219

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Originally Posted by The SnowShow

And here I thought everyone in MN was so nice!

https://youtu.be/MtWmG1PPKy8?si=gdPIl1SPzvqt_FAs

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Whatta dumbfuck... But that's Minneapolis cyclists for ya. I ride a LOT, and no matter what happens, I don't take "my rights" to use the road for granted EVER. I always give cars the right of way, even if they're not right. It's not worth it, and oh - by the way - guys like that dipshit are the reason motorists take out stuff on those of us that actually follow traffic rules and don't pretend that we "have every right a car does"...

On the bright side, at least he wasn't riding obliviously through stop signs like there's no one else in the world on the road I guess...

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Originally Posted by axebiker

Whatta dumbfuck... But that's Minneapolis cyclists for ya. I ride a LOT, and no matter what happens, I don't take "my rights" to use the road for granted EVER. I always give cars the right of way, even if they're not right. It's not worth it, and oh - by the way - guys like that dipshit are the reason motorists take out stuff on those of us that actually follow traffic rules and don't pretend that we "have every right a car does"...

On the bright side, at least he wasn't riding obliviously through stop signs like there's no one else in the world on the road I guess...

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Have you run into this guy before there? His videos over the years are amazing.

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Originally Posted by The SnowShow

Have you run into this guy before there? His videos over the years are amazing.

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Didn't know he was a local celebrity... ;)

After that video, I'd almost rather run over him than into him.

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Originally Posted by axebiker

Didn't know he was a local celebrity... ;)

After that video, I'd almost rather run over him than into him.

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I think you could say that about any of his videos going back like 6 years.

Riding on the road is humbling.

I hear people complain that it’s becoming more and more dangerous. The argument is that cell phones lead to distraction. Do you remember books full of CD’s? Digging through the glove box for a cassette or 8 track?

Time of day, route, spacing in the lane…. Control what you can control. I do think I’ll opt for one of the radar lights soon.

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Originally Posted by lowsparkco

Riding on the road is humbling.

I hear people complain that it’s becoming more and more dangerous. The argument is that cell phones lead to distraction. Do you remember books full of CD’s? Digging through the glove box for a cassette or 8 track?

Time of day, route, spacing in the lane…. Control what you can control. I do think I’ll opt for one of the radar lights soon.

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Would have like to have humbled this old runt today on a mobility assist vehicle (ebike) riding on the shoulder in the wrong direction where there was an adjacent bike path.

Half mile and zero interest in lining up.

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Eh, I get that feels like they're being assholes but that's a narrow lane. If they go single file, you pass, and oncoming traffic comes at the same time, there's no way for you to maintain 3 feet of distance from them. Pretty much any driver at that point will squeeze / contact the cyclists to keep from a head on collision with another motor vehicle. They're not trying to piss you off, they're just hoping you'll wait until you can see the oncoming lane is clear for long enough to execute a clean pass.

^^^ Always take the lane! Drivers must change lanes to pass, just like if they encounter agricultural equipment on the road.

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Originally Posted by Art Shirk

Half mile and zero interest in lining up.

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It's nice to ride along and bullshit with your friends but as an avid road cyclist all I have to say is line the fuck up somewhat. Everybody has rights to the roadway but a group of cyclists is going to travel well under the speed limit. Line up so people can pass you. Its easy.

Yeah, even if they’re single file you’re still crossing the double yellow to pass on that road. It makes no difference if they’re riding 1, 2 or 3 wide.


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Bullshit.

Single file cyclists are far easier to pass. Do you have to cross the line? Of course. But saying "you have to cross the lane anyway" is like saying you're going to piss on the toilette, might as well piss on the seat.

I ride my bikes on roads. We have gangs of cyclists on the very canyon road I live on. There's a big difference in both driver's and cyclists' safety.

When I'm riding, I don't mind lining up or even straddling the shoulder on extra right roads. It's just a courtesy.

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Originally Posted by Art Shirk

Half mile and zero interest in lining up.

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Surprised you didn't roll coal in that beast.

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Sunday afternoon and you’re in a hurry, who cares about the safety of some cyclists, amirite?

If I’m approaching a blind roller with a double yellow I’m taking the lane single file or not. Drivers are too impatient and selfish to care about my safety.


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If everybody put in a little effort it would be easy.

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Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater

Bullshit.

Single file cyclists are far easier to pass. Do you have to cross the line? Of course. But saying "you have to cross the lane anyway" is like saying you're going to piss on the toilette, might as well piss on the seat.

I ride my bikes on roads. We have gangs of cyclists on the very canyon road I live on. There's a big difference in both driver's and cyclists' safety.

When I'm riding, I don't mind lining up or even straddling the shoulder on extra right roads. It's just a courtesy.

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I've found it's absolutely impossible to make blanket statements about this stuff. Different roads, shoulder width, traffic and bike speeds, populations, etc. all demand different techniques in dealing with traffic.

But in the photo OP took: dan_pdx is 100% right. There's no sight line and visible oncoming traffic. Even solo I'm taking the full lane right there to discouarge a pass. Of course, I'll move right as soon as it's safe to be passed and try to smile and wave my left hand at the driver who was stuck behind me.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

I've found it's absolutely impossible to make blanket statements about this stuff. Different roads, shoulder width, traffic and bike speeds, populations, etc. all demand different techniques in dealing with traffic.

But in the photo OP took: dan_pdx is 100% right. There's no sight line and visible oncoming traffic. Even solo I'm taking the full lane right there to discouarge a pass. Of course, I'll move right as soon as it's safe to be passed and try to smile and wave my left hand at the driver who was stuck behind me.

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Read the OPs post.

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Originally Posted by halliday

If everybody put in a little effort it would be easy.

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This is America. We all have rights. None of us has obligations.