Shiffrin

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Originally Posted by nyskirat

As I said, a select few.

Holdener is good, but she's never won a SL race. She's really well-rounded (evidence by her status as world champ in the SC) but she's a step below Mikaela in most disciplines.

Vlhova can push Mikaela on her best days/Mikaela's off days but that's it. And she's never going to push her for the overall if she doesn't start skiing speed or become more consistent with her GS.

Goggia is coming off a few injuries so we'll see if she can return to prior form. Don't forget, Lara Gut hurt herself and hasn't been the same since.

I'm not saying there are talented women in the field, but who do you realistically expect to challenge her on a consistent basis?

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I initially thought you were arguing that the field is weak leading to some of her dominance but it seems like you maybe arguing that no one in the field is great enough to reliably challenge her.

In regards to the former, I’d have to see some analysis to be convinced that the SL field is weak. Typically a generational talent / GOAT makes the field better. If Mikaela doesn’t exist or decided she was done with ski racing when she was 16 would we be talking about the lack of great Women’s SL skiers?

The Outside short documentary that was mentioned earlier:

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Originally Posted by neufox47

I initially thought you were arguing that the field is weak leading to some of her dominance but it seems like you maybe arguing that no one in the field is great enough to reliably challenge her.

In regards to the former, I’d have to see some analysis to be convinced that the SL field is weak. Typically a generational talent / GOAT makes the field better. If Mikaela doesn’t exist or decided she was done with ski racing when she was 16 would we be talking about the lack of great Women’s SL skiers?

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I think it's weak in that it lacks the depth you see in the male field but also in the top end talent.

For instance, in 2005-2018 here were the top 5 SL finishers

2005-Janica Kostelic/Marlies Schild/Anja Parson/Zettel/Poutiainen
2006-Marlies Schild/Hosp/Zabrobska//Borssen/Zuzulova
2007-Marlies Schild/Hosp/Zuzulova/Poutainen/Zahrobska
2008-Maria Riesch/Zahrobska/Vonn/Poutiainen/Aubert
2009-Maria Riesch/Zettel/Schild/Aubert/Zahrobska-The difference between 1st and 4th this year was 87 points
2010-Marlies Schild/Poutiainen/Riesch/Holmner/Zuzulova
2011-M Schild/Kirchbasser/Maze/Zuzulova/Zettel
2012-Shiffrin/Maze/Zuzulova/Hansdottir/Poutiainen
2013-Shiffrin/Hansdottir/M. Schild/Holdner/Riesch
2014- Shiffrin/Hansdottir/Maze/Strachova/Zettel
2015-Hansdottir/Zuzulova/Holdener/Shiffrin/Strachova-MS hurt herself this year
2016-Shiffrin/Zuzulova/Holdener/Hansdottir/Vlhova
2017-Shiffrin/Holdener/Hansdottir/Vlhova/B. Schild
2018-Shiffrin/Vlhova/Holdener/Swenn-Larsson/Hansdottir

Since Shiffrin came to the scene, it's basically been dominated by a few other skiers-Hansdottir (Retired), Zuzulova (retired), Maze (Retired), and Holdener and Vlhova.

Compare that to the years leading up to her arrival. You had a bunch of different names moving in and out of that top 5.


Compare this to the GS rankings. You haven't had a single overall repeat winner in a long time. I think Fenninger and Rebensburg were the only two who have won two in a row in last decade. Since the turn of the century? Nef, Parson, Rebensburg, and Fenninger.

GS:
2005-Anja Parson
2006- Nicole Hosp
2007-Denise Karbon
2008-Tanja Poutiainen
2009-Kathrin Holzl
2010-Viktoria Rebensburg

Here's the last 5:

2014-Fenninger
2015-Eva-Maria Brem
2016-Worley
2017-Rebensburg
2018-Shiffrin

The female speed skiers during that era were absolutely incredible too but MS isn't pushing for dominance there yet nor do I expect her to.

It's pretty clear that no one can touch MS in SL and the top end talent is lacking (at least to me).

The eye test is even worse.

Attachment 305078

Holy Ester Ledecka.

2nd place today.

Good for her.

It's truly amazing she can dominate sl and then jump on a dh course and almost win...and of course she has won a dh. Crazy

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Originally Posted by Vt-Freeheel

9/10 at the Killington GS race yesterday.
Took a point off due to cold temperature.

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Sent you a PM, regarding your 9/10 rating.

.facebook.com/MikaelaShiffrin/videos


Attachment 305992

https://www.eurosport.com/alpine-ski...91/story.shtml

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Originally Posted by nyskirat

I think it's weak in that it lacks the depth you see in the male field but also in the top end talent.

For instance, in 2005-2018 here were the top 5 SL finishers

2005-Janica Kostelic/Marlies Schild/Anja Parson/Zettel/Poutiainen
2006-Marlies Schild/Hosp/Zabrobska//Borssen/Zuzulova
2007-Marlies Schild/Hosp/Zuzulova/Poutainen/Zahrobska
2008-Maria Riesch/Zahrobska/Vonn/Poutiainen/Aubert
2009-Maria Riesch/Zettel/Schild/Aubert/Zahrobska-The difference between 1st and 4th this year was 87 points
2010-Marlies Schild/Poutiainen/Riesch/Holmner/Zuzulova
2011-M Schild/Kirchbasser/Maze/Zuzulova/Zettel
2012-Shiffrin/Maze/Zuzulova/Hansdottir/Poutiainen
2013-Shiffrin/Hansdottir/M. Schild/Holdner/Riesch
2014- Shiffrin/Hansdottir/Maze/Strachova/Zettel
2015-Hansdottir/Zuzulova/Holdener/Shiffrin/Strachova-MS hurt herself this year
2016-Shiffrin/Zuzulova/Holdener/Hansdottir/Vlhova
2017-Shiffrin/Holdener/Hansdottir/Vlhova/B. Schild
2018-Shiffrin/Vlhova/Holdener/Swenn-Larsson/Hansdottir

Since Shiffrin came to the scene, it's basically been dominated by a few other skiers-Hansdottir (Retired), Zuzulova (retired), Maze (Retired), and Holdener and Vlhova.

Compare that to the years leading up to her arrival. You had a bunch of different names moving in and out of that top 5.


Compare this to the GS rankings. You haven't had a single overall repeat winner in a long time. I think Fenninger and Rebensburg were the only two who have won two in a row in last decade. Since the turn of the century? Nef, Parson, Rebensburg, and Fenninger.

GS:
2005-Anja Parson
2006- Nicole Hosp
2007-Denise Karbon
2008-Tanja Poutiainen
2009-Kathrin Holzl
2010-Viktoria Rebensburg

Here's the last 5:

2014-Fenninger
2015-Eva-Maria Brem
2016-Worley
2017-Rebensburg
2018-Shiffrin

The female speed skiers during that era were absolutely incredible too but MS isn't pushing for dominance there yet nor do I expect her to.

It's pretty clear that no one can touch MS in SL and the top end talent is lacking (at least to me).

The eye test is even worse.

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Reminds me of lack of depth in women’s march madness/ D1 basketball. Tennessee, UConn, Norte dame etc dominating year after year. Except in women’s basketball, being a team sport, I’d argue it’s more an issue of not enough quality coaching.


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Not enough coaching? Disagree. When I look at the amount of money spent on coaching throughout the ski towns of USA, then add on NCAA and Olympic team. Skiing has always been dominated by a couple individuals. Those willing to sacrifice individually the hours needed, and families in terms of dollars.

I don't think it is a coaching issue. We can argue a lot about system. Thousands of hours waisted on kids that will never progress, ID'ing kids that will progress, and why dominate females seem to have parents that are coaches.

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Originally Posted by Canada1

Not enough coaching? Disagree. When I look at the amount of money spent on coaching throughout the ski towns of USA, then add on NCAA and Olympic team. Skiing has always been dominated by a couple individuals. Those willing to sacrifice individually the hours needed, and families in terms of dollars.

I don't think it is a coaching issue. We can argue a lot about system. Thousands of hours waisted on kids that will never progress, ID'ing kids that will progress, and why dominate females seem to have parents that are coaches.

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The issue in the states is that skiing is a really expensive sport.

So first you select kids with money, then talent.

Most countries in Europe have really inexpensive ski racing programs for kids, so talented kids, even without money, can ski and compete.

At squaw, weekend racing for 8 year olds is 3,000 a season plus ski pass

In France, where we are now, it's 250 a season, including 2 pairs of skis.

And the coaches are former world cup skiers.

Which is why a tiny country like Slovenia has more top skiers than the us.



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So is France subsidizing the whole thing somehow? They must be if kids are getting 2 sets of skis for 250 bucks, let alone all the other expenditures like travel, etc.

Even still, that only goes so far. I find it extremely hard to believe that ski racing isn't a sport for the more well off populations no matter where you live or what country you are from. I know my parents, nor I now for a hypothetical child, could afford just the travel side and taking the necessary time off of work alone, even if everything else was free.

As far as I can tell it takes a marriage where the 1 parent is making serious bank to bankroll the whole thing, 1 parent doesn't work, and neither parent sees each other much. That is a tough sell to anyone, given the odds of success are still stacked against the golden child who gets the ride.

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

As far as I can tell it takes a marriage where the 1 parent is making serious bank to bankroll the whole thing, 1 parent doesn't work, and neither parent sees each other much. That is a tough sell to anyone, given the odds of success are still stacked against the golden child who gets the ride.

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There's usually not much need for a parent to be traveling with the athlete at the FIS level (for many athletes, it tends to more of a distraction than a benefit), and they will be traveling with their coaches and teammates. But yes, the cost is significant, and there's a nasty tendency for it to keep getting worse as you get better, as the geography covered by a given level of competition tends to increase with performance level.

For younger kids who usually travel with their families, regular-season events are relatively constrained by the competition circuits (e.g. Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont each have their own); travel usually varies between minimal (New England) and significant distances but less than a handful of events per year (Montana). Even then, parents who can't make all the races will often work with other families to get their kids to the races (especially if they have two kids in different age groups).

Post-season events in the West can be more of a PITA (e.g. Alaska, California, Montana, and most places in between are in the same region), but again, that can usually be managed without all the parents involved having to go (assuming they trust another parent that can go to watch their kid).

I don't care.... she can eat crackers in my bed whenever she wants with me!

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Originally Posted by Lupolicious

I don't care.... she can eat crackers in my bed whenever she wants with me!

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Take a lap, beater.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

The issue in the states is that skiing is a really expensive sport.

So first you select kids with money, then talent.

Most countries in Europe have really inexpensive ski racing programs for kids, so talented kids, even without money, can ski and compete.

At squaw, weekend racing for 8 year olds is 3,000 a season plus ski pass

In France, where we are now, it's 250 a season, including 2 pairs of skis.

And the coaches are former world cup skiers.

Which is why a tiny country like Slovenia has more top skiers than the us.



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Nice summary. I experienced this a bit when I used to get my ski stuff at Granite Chief in Squaw. They used to have the pre-season sale where the reps came and outfitted the kids, (it’s where I got my namesake boots). I met a lot of parents who filled me in on this info. Then, when I started taking trips to France I had similar stories relayed to me. Oh well, we have decent Basketball players in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by plugboots

Nice summary. I experienced this a bit when I used to get my ski stuff at Granite Chief in Squaw. They used to have the pre-season sale where the reps came and outfitted the kids, (it’s where I got my namesake boots). I met a lot of parents who filled me in on this info. Then, when I started taking trips to France I had similar stories relayed to me. Oh well, we have decent Basketball players in the U.S.

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Kids racing is not subsidized.

It's organized by ski clubs that are not for profit.

At squaw and probably everywhere else in the us, it's the ski resort that has a monopoly and they see this as a huge profit opportunity.

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Rec league racing for kids here in the midwest is $250 per year at Sundown. $400 at Chestnut..another $40 for league fees and $50 for insurance. FWIW. Pretty accessible at the basic level. Taking it to the next level requires the trust fund.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

Rec league racing for kids here in the midwest is $250 per year at Sundown. $400 at Chestnut..another $40 for league fees and $50 for insurance. FWIW. Pretty accessible at the basic level. Taking it to the next level requires the trust fund.

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The basic race training here begins at $1800 for one day a week; you can get 300 of that back if you volunteer a bunch of time.


That doesn't cover the race registrations, equipment, ski pass (plus day passes if the race isn't on your season pass), etc.

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Originally Posted by Danno

The basic race training here begins at $1800 for one day a week; you can get 300 of that back if you volunteer a bunch of time.


That doesn't cover the race registrations, equipment, ski pass (plus day passes if the race isn't on your season pass), etc.

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Ouch. We have the pass fees and day pass fees as well obviously but for the most part we paid for those before race team so mostly a wash

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

So is France subsidizing the whole thing somehow? They must be if kids are getting 2 sets of skis for 250 bucks, let alone all the other expenditures like travel,etc.

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You play soccer, baseball, basketball here growing up? No reason it can't be like that

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Originally Posted by powdork

You play soccer, baseball, basketball here growing up? No reason it can't be like that

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Have you checked out any of the above recently? From the first results for "coaching fee u12 soccer travel team":

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Originally Posted by Vienna Soccer Academy

Academy Teams U09 - U10 $1,700 $300-500

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So over $2k in coaching and club costs for 8-9 year-olds playing soccer. Prices go up with age (c.f. http://vys.org/travel/travel-fees-refund-policy)

We have issues with youth sports in general in this country, as it tends to turn into an arms race that then encourages selecting for financial resources rather than for talent. There are a lot of pieces that make it happen, but it's not just an issue in skiing.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Kids racing is not subsidized.

It's organized by ski clubs that are not for profit.

At squaw and probably everywhere else in the us, it's the ski resort that has a monopoly and they see this as a huge profit opportunity.

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Bingo. Here in Colorado along the Front Range all the ski areas charge a ridiculous amount of money for even the YSL teams. Loveland is the cheapest at around $2000 a season, plus ski pass and then gear. Then there is Ski Cooper, the only community owned ski area in the state(where we have our kids on the ski team). They charge $250 for the season, kids get a couple of pair of skis with that. Granted the ski gear is all used, hand me down stuff. But our kids win just as many races as the teams from Vail, Summit, etc. Ski racing doesn't have to be expensive, it's just that the for profit area's view it as that, for profit. Had some friends that lived in Austria, they said the ski teams there were pretty much run in the same manner as Cooper. Something like 90% of the kids in Austria grow up doing some time on a ski team. That allows the national team to find the talent.