It was a one jumpQuote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
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It was a one jumpQuote:
Originally Posted by Hacksaw
looks like the temps are finally headed toward midwinter. I hate it when it gets all cold and light and falls on top of somewhat denser snow from previous days....
D'ohhhhh!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:: eek::eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankZappa
Just got a call, they cancelled the S&R Avalanche School this weekend, since traffic maybe a mess. And since lots of self-propelled mobile avalanche triggers will be headed out into the backcountry this weekend......:eek::eek::cussing:
come up to Vail Pass anyway - my boys would love to spend some time in the field with you - small group
On a "powder weekend?" And with I-70 totally screwed up? maybe on a weekday.....
Shovel compression scores
1-5 "from the wrist"
full failure to the facets
NW aspect at and BTL
be safe
don't die
Northwest facing slope - Berthoud Pass - Hell's Half Acre Trees
105 cm deep snowpack. 75 cm new snow on facets.
25 degree slope - shovel compression test - failed at fourth hit from elbow, all the way down to the facets.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...k/IMG_2569.jpg
BZ,
We were up at the pass today too. Observations. Roughly 30 inches of snow out of this last cycle. Sitting on top of about 10 inches of facets. Interestingly, there are some spots (Floral Park, 90s) where the facets are present, but not doing much in terms of settling, cracking, or whoomphing.
However, between the 80s and 90s, due north facing is a snowpack nightmare. Below the new snow is a completely unsupportable facet layer. There was tremendous whoomphing, and settling. We sympathetically set off a slide (will get picture up later)
3.5 foot crown, 100 yards wide, ran roughly 200 yards, ran to the ground. At the time we were skiing in an area that had slid probably yesterday and the slide broke roughly 100 yards from us on another slope. THankfully, nobody was injured, but goes to show that there are some serious problems lurking below the snowpack.
Other than that, the skiing was mint.
wow...what a storm! That is why we moved, not so much for the snow, but because I was able to ski for a couple hours on Friday, all day Sat, and Sunday until our legs stopped working.
Super excited about our hut trip this weekend. Looks like a continued stormy pattern. Don't know how much skiing we will get in this weekend, the weekend is more about Avy training than skiing. Rontele, anything major lurking?
why don't you go over and ask him in the amatuer-weather-man-circle-jerk thread?
or check the NWS
I'm just saying.............
montanaskier, there is a discussion thread over in the Snow and Weather forum. Now that the snow has fallen, lets keep this thread clean with snow conditions and reports.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
oh yeah - snow and avalanche obs....
whoomphing, collapsing and cracking on all aspects and elevations at Vail Pass yesterday - avalanche activity observed at Black Lakes - things were fracturing mid-slope in the trees, wrapping around corners and terrain features - very reactive snow stablity tests kept a party on low-angle terrain on Uneva Peak - some BOLD highmarking on Shrine Bowl w/o results (volunteer slope stability testers)
12-8-07, Jones Pass
Below treeline, some cracking and several very large whoomphs. On our short tour, however, short and steep test slopes on E faces (remember this is pretty low elevation) were generally showing minimal signs of instability. Quick hand pits revealed zero-trace amounts of old snow and facets under the new storm snow.
I think it's good to remember that even during a cycle like we're experiencing now, it's possible to find pockets of stability. That good ol' spatial variability thing. Look at it objectively, take it for what it's worth, and don't get trapped into thinking other slopes have similar conditions.
Good thread... keep it up!
good advice - not worth scaring folks out of the backcountry
you can always find safe snow
to me, managing terrain is the most important part of safe skiing in the backcountry
avalanche triangle = terrain + weather + snowpack
YOU are the human factor. YOU are the potential trigger. YOU are the potential victim or rescuer.
I'm not a meteorologist or a snow scientist. I focus on where I go, and where the people I am with go. If we make good decisions about where and how we climb and ski, we can reduce our chances of becoming involved in an avalanche.
Listen to the snow scientists and listen to the meteorologists and try to make good decisions about where and how you want to ski.
watch the movie "A Dozen More Turns" if you haven't already
http://www.lifeonterra.com/episode.php?id=77
http://www.lifeonterra.com/episode.php?id=78
http://www.lifeonterra.com/episode.php?id=79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rontele
by the way - I'm not runnin' this thread - Rontele is - he has the right to tell me to fuck off any time - weather is certainly pertinent to snowpack and weather obs, and I don't want to diss Dave for spending time analysing the weather, but it seemed like this was becoming the "read me The Weather Channel" thread at a certain point
Can someone link me to this "Snow and Weather Forum"??? Is this a separate thread?
EDIT: Nevermind. Just found it. Didn't realize there was a separate category in the forum!
i like the weather in this thread
its all part of the puzzle
id also like to point out that since its started to snow, there have been a lot more snowpack observations from everyone.
theres not much to talk about in the snowpack equation besides weather when its not snowing. (ie november)
Nah. We'll keep the techy, geeky stuff in the Snow Conditions forum and post pertinent information regarding weather/snowpack here.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
For example, we have been fortunate that this last storm fell with little or no wind. However, there appears to be a fairly good shortwave that should kick through Thursday night into Friday. As it strengthens across the forecast area, winds should increase. There is a lot of new snow to transport, so folks will have to be extra leery come this weekend as starting zones will have an extra load.
is that okay?
And mike, I totally agree with your approach to backcountry skiing and safety. I think it is the safest way to approach it without being overwhelmed by the science...
the annoying part to me is the constant handwringing
sorry montanaskier, but the 3 overnight posts whining about the lack of overnight snow is annoying
weather is pertinent to snowpack, but we don't need a snow report from your deck every time you get up to pee
I have yet to see ANYONE get more butt hurt over weather than montanaskier.Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
montanaskier = Pwn3d.
I will post more details regarding Monarch Pass after tomorrow morning's tour but the word around town from two of my main ski partners and the head of patrol is the stability around here is unprecedented. No one can get anything to move in the Cat skiing area and one friend skied about the steepest thing we ski around here in the BC yesterday with no sloughing or any sort of cracking, fracturing, anything.
Basically we had no snow, then we got a shit pile of very wet snow and the wind has yet to blow. Now all of this could be changing right now with upslope and new snow, but my guess is that we will continue to experience stability in the first 4 feet of the pack for a little while around here.
We just don't have that normal, hollow, shallow, cold snowpack around here right now.
All that being said this is so uncharacteristic I am still going to move carefully tomorrow until I see it for myself. I would say I am cautiously optimistic right now about being able to ski some exposed lines in this locale at least until things change significantly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
Noted.......everyone has a vice, freaking about weather is mine for sure. No more posts about the weather or lack thereof.
Monarch this morning was arguably the best backcountry conditions I have skied around here in 10 years. We dug a pit to the ground and found essentially three layers:
Top-6" of new, light snow
Mid Pack- 40" of super consolidated snow from the big system
Base- 12" of snow from the first system maybe 10 days ago.
No tg to speak of at all.
Shovel shear produced nothing, at any level and this stratification was pretty subtle. Basically the most bomber pack I have ever seen on Monarch.
So the disclaimer is the wind was blowing like a mother fucker this morning up there and with more snow on the way things will undoubtedly change. And this is for one east-northeast facing aspect approx 11,500' so don't quote me on it if you go out this weekend and get yourself buried and you are a Western State student with a brand new beacon and 8 hours of training.
^^^^
Good to hear .and thanks for the info. I suspect places where no snow existed will be less unstable than others ones - as evidenced by the CAIC avy rose up north - south facing slopes have a low danger.
My $.02 - the arguing about whether we should have weather forecasting in this thread is the only thing more annoying than the actual weather forecasting.
Here is my Obs;
Loveland Pass 12/11
Inverted below treeline, mixed bag above treeline. The skiing is great but the danger is high on anything steep and untouched as whumphing, cracking, etc are all still there. Soon we'll be talking about "bridging" over the instabilities - basically when you are less likely to penetrate down into the pack to where the weak layers are, then you'll be less likely to trigger a slide. Problem with this is when/if you do penetrate and/or otherwise trigger a slide its the whole enchilada, but thats typical for us.
got out for a quick tour this morning at VP - skied to the cell tower and out the ridge - snow is quieter and less reactive than last week, but still observed whoomphing, collapsing, and cracking - quick pit and stability tests at 12k on 32 degree, NE slope - 103cm total snow, new snow on top of snow of increasing density as you head to the ground UNTIL the well formed depth hoar at 35cm to the ground - CTE and STV both failed on the facets above the ground
forgot the pics at work......
So the wife and I just got back from our first real backcountry trip. We skinned up to the Sangree Frolicher hut outside of Leadville. This was a 3 day Avy 1 class thru 10th mountain. WOW, what a trip. I learned so much. As far as actual observations, I recoginze I am an Avy jong, but will post what we saw anyway.
We got some whoomping and cracking on slopes of 25 degrees and up that were east facing. We didn't see any natural avy activity or any real activity at all. Looked like right above the hut in the natural avy slide zone that the slope had ripped out and slid at some point, maybe a few days earlier. In our pit digging, at 12k or so, it was pretty variable depending on the aspect. Wind slabs were prevalent on all aspects, obviously much deeper on SE aspects. The compression tests we did yielded quite high scores and our R-block test was a 6. Looks like there was no snow at all on the ground before these last two storms, currently there is an average snow depth of around 3-4 feet. The bottom layer was quite faceted but mostly soft snow on top. Again, a great trip and hopefully the first of many.
Back from Eiseman. Kind of a mixed bag regarding the snowpack. Sadly, there is a highly variable layer of facets deep in the pack. The layer is roughly 10 to 12 inches deep and sits below the five feet from the last two storms. The westerly aspects appear not to have as prevalent, this facet layer, resulting in a bomber snowpack.
Its going to be variable from slope to slope, aspect to aspect, and looks like we'll be dealing this for some time.
With new snow on the way through the end of the week, should see the danger in all zones rise.
Plus, the wind started blowing today.
Sunday 12-16-07:
Jones Pass, below treeline. Still mininmal signs of instability. Some wind deposit soft slabs were building, and there were Q2 shears on NSF's just below the surface. But these were REALLY soft slabs. Might become a problem if we don't get more snow soon and the slabs harden.
Berthoud Pass, later that afternoon. Toured up past the WX station on the west side. Dug a pit above treeline on a S-SE slope. There were 3 distinct shear planes in the top 50cm or so. Mostly 4 finger slabs. The top layer failed while I was cutting out the back for a compression test. Not good, however the block didn't pop out completely (34 degree slope), so I gave it a Q2, borderline Q1. I was too cold to get out a lens, and the sun was receding, so I'm not sure what these slabs were failing on. I think they were small density changes, possibly several NSF events? Whatever they were, they were not easily detectable in the pit wall.
Meanwhile, I'm hearing other reports of a bomber snowpack in the central mountains. Depending on how things shake out, it seems like this could be a tricky winter in CO. Some places are setup with deep snow on the ground and minimal facets. Elsewhere, it sucks. But there's some fine skiing!
Cheers,
Justin
Nice obvs, Justin. I agree that this is a season of a mixed bag, which will require extra caution.
12.16.07 Berthoud Pass
Excellent snow for skiing was to be had in the trees. I personally noted a tiny bit of surface instability in the trees of HHA/North Chutes and set off some 3-4 ft. cracks in a 3-inch deep soft slab on about a 35-degree pitch below tree line. The soft slab moved maybe 6 or 8 feet. Coverage was THIIIIN in the chute. We didn't get anything to move on the other side of the highway--towards Gaffney's playground, where we toured after the sun came out and it started to warm up.
Very light snow until 10:30 AM or so and relatively light winds below treeline, but it was consistently howling just past where the trees started to thin out. Much, much slabbier, hollower snow, with about a 4-inch windskin on top 100-ft above treeline. For safety's sake and for better skiing, I'd definitely recommend staying below treeline in the HHA area for now.
from the CAIC morning forecast....
http://avalanche.state.co.us/Forecasts/Vail+Summit+Co/
News of triggered avalanche activity continues to come in from the entire Summit County and Vail area zone. On Tuesday a skier triggered a good sized slab on a NE aspect just below treeline near Vail. The gentleman was carried by the slab, which failed about 20 feet above him, for about 800 feet. Escape routes were not present so he had no option but the ride which had him buried for most of the ride, but he popped out just as the slide was coming to a stop. This ride took him over at least one 15 foot cliff, but he ended up with only some impact bruises to his thigh, lost a ski, one pole, hat and goggles. Crown was 4 feet deep at the deepest, and about 60 feet wide. This was a wind slab created from recent moderate to sometimes strong westerly winds. A skier triggered a slide on the Little Professor slide path on Monday too. The slide initiated on a wind loaded south aspect just below the ridge, cracking 1 to 2 feet deep. Winds have blown from the northeast, north, west, and southwest. Observers note lots of complex wind loading and some cornice collapse at ridgelines. West slopes are largely stripped while wind slabs, sensitive drifts, and cross loaded terrain features pepper most other aspects on higher elevation slopes as well as on exposed areas below treeline. Fresh slabs can be reactive on steep slopes where they are sitting on low-density recycled powder. Observers on Monday noted that fresh wind slabs 20-30cm deep are not bonding well with the underlying wind slab. Strong winds have drifted snow well down on slopes and into start zones. This means you may get lured farther down a slope as the slab thickness demonstrates strength.
^^ that slide was in Old Man's, fyi.
Thanks, I was going to call them and ask where exactly. What part do you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by homerjay
12.16.07 - N. of Vail
Dug a pit on a 30 deg slope 11.5k west facing. 5.5 ft of solid snow, mostly windloaded, 1 full ft. depth hoar to ground (grass still green under there). While I was in the pit, a partner jumped on his pit nearby and the whole slope boomed and settled. I dropped a good foot and a half. Decided not to ski the slope (38 deg or so) even though I really thought the big pack could bridge the hoar, but if it did rip, it would have been a big one. Skied slopes with less/no loading.
not familiar enough with Vail - where is Old Man's?
got it - thanks christian
careful out there maggots. At berthoud on N -> E aspects my group got a couple soft slabs to run, each going approx 100-200 yards. None of them were large enough to bury you, but one of them happened over cliff bands and would have been a scary ride had it fractured above us. They each ran on a layer of sugar snow and had crowns from 8-18 inches tall.
EDIT: I didn't have my altimeter with me, but it was only about 500 feet above the BP parking lot(you could actually see the debris from one of them from the parking lot, right through the lookers right side of the huge cliff bands across the highway), so it did not occur very high... Dig pits, and be wary...
What elevation was this?Quote:
Originally Posted by couloirman
Just returned from a Front Range tour near Allenspark. The wind was howling hard and blowing the NW aspects nearly clean. This has added a further variable to an already variable snowpack as there are numerous drifts and hardslabs depending on terrain and trees, etc.
I did notice that the new windslab was not bonding well to the old snow surface. The slabs were shallow, but with still alot of snow to transport, I'd expect them to grow.
Finally, like the CAIC has been reporting, these new slabs are forming lower down on the slopes than you'd usually think. Be extra careful.
Oh yeah, the skiing conditions in the protected trees were $$$$
Just got back from Berthoud. The snow in the trees was $$ but above tree line it was a little sketchy. As we skinned below the ridge, the snow was whoomphing and cracking.
The Cornice we approached:
http://www.biglines.com/photosv2/200...ines_80636.jpg
Before we even dug a pit we realized that the snow on the surface was incredibly slabby. We dug our pit on a SE facing slope at just under 30 degrees. Once we got into our pit a bit more we found the following:
20cm of wind slab on the surface
http://www.biglines.com/photosv2/200...ines_80637.jpg
http://www.biglines.com/photosv2/200...ines_80638.jpg
Our pit was about 5 feet deep. We did our sheer tests and checked out the different layers. I didn't get any good photos of this since my camera is temperamental and I suck at using it. But once we loaded the uphill portion of the pit, the snow collapsed about 75cm deep and in a very slabby manner.
http://www.biglines.com/photosv2/200...ines_80639.jpg
As soon as the deep collapse happened, we turned around and headed back for low angle trees. It was awful to leave such a nice line untouched but It is better than being dead. Some people had the ca hones' to ski some 30-35 degree pitches today. I wasn't one of them. Caution was on my mind today.