Backlash Against Vail Resorts

I kind of hope this turns into the Vail Resort (the actual, flat, ski hill) discussion thread...

I do not really get their game ( I mean I do - Screw the local bastards and play real nice and pretty for the out of towners)

I ski at a resort that has been brought under the wings of #Fail.
I knew from day 1 that it would be BAD - Well they did keep it open - Mostly
They pretend like skiing isn't cool come April and close EARLY and also pretend that the mountain NEVER stayed open later.

It is stupid to me that they have pretty much forced me to Boycott spending additional money beyond my pass for more than 1 or 2 reasons.

The food options are worse and more expensive so we do not bother.
I do not drink so they don't get those $'s either. $14 beers sound tasty don't they.
The new motto of just sell as many passes as possible and say screw-it to what actually happens day to day is beyond me.

So yea I understand why they do not care about my type...But my family also rakes in 6 digits and have full EPIC passes so even though we are Locals we are prime targets for Travel to other locations and have the funds to spend $ at the resort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Summit

You are not wrong, but fighting lobbyists is not quick nor a sure thing. Vail alone is 11B in market cap and has over 1B in cash on hand. Who knows what KSL (Alterra) has as they are a private equity firm. Even "independent" mountains are owned by megacorps. A-Basin is owned by a multibillion dollar Canadian RE/resort firm, but they promote their plucky independent image (they are given a freer hand).

Would you rise up and storm Olympus? Trust busting is so 1901. Better bow before your corporate gods, peasant.

---

Vail Resorts spent a grand total of $80k lobbying the feds between 1998 and 2020 per opensecrets; KSL spent $0. The power they have is more of the soft variety. (Yes, employees of both donated far more money, but that’s a more complicated subject)

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jax

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

---

That letter is awesome

Who ya gonna believe? Me or your own lyin eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jax

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

---

Oh, snap.

Tuesday or Wednesday you can maybe ski up to the lift. As long as it hasn’t snowed.
Every other day, full maze.

For a number of years there was all kinds of talk about too few new people starting to ski and wait until the boomers can’t ski in addition to it being too expensive. That was all going up add up to problems for the industry.

Is skiing now really truly cheap? For most people I don’t think so.

Is it because COVID has funneled people towards skiing?

Or do young people now “like” to ski and will do so no matter the pain in the ass cost of traffic, lift lines, $$$ cost because they REALLY love having other people see them go skiing, know they went skiing via social media? As long as they get a few likes and shoutouts from a decent picture or post it’s all worth it to them. Is that much of a factor?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jax

Beth Howard said the other day, again, that skier visits are down. I love this response letter in today's Vail daily:

"....Whether they are simply our faulty impressions or reality, your customers are telling you that you have huge problems and your response is to tell us we are wrong...."

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/le...ys-were-wrong/

---

How did Vail define skier numbers being down? There are plenty of ways that can be defined to their benefit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfelot

Or do young people now “like” to ski and will do so no matter the pain in the ass cost of traffic, lift lines, $$$ cost because they REALLY love having other people see them go skiing, know they went skiing via social media? As long as they get a few likes and shoutouts from a decent picture or post it’s all worth it to them. Is that much of a factor?

---

If that’s the case, that’s really, really sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfelot

Is it because COVID has funneled people towards skiing?

Or do young people now “like” to ski and will do so no matter the pain in the ass cost of traffic, lift lines, $$$ cost because they REALLY love having other people see them go skiing, know they went skiing via social media? As long as they get a few likes and shoutouts from a decent picture or post it’s all worth it to them. Is that much of a factor?

---

*Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

I don't think they know any different & really don't care as long as they get a couple instagram shots & have a craft beer. I was subjected to rather sloppy young women dancing on wall in the courtyard this weekend to "I Feel Like a Woman" and it felt as if I had just joined a class action PTSD lawsuit for damages suffered. They could not have cared less about skiing & yet are congesting the hill & bottlenecking all sorts of areas that never had problems. The demographic coming to the hill is certainly changing.

Get off my LAWN!

If they aren't out skiing, then they aren't congesting things. Try again.

I think skiing is literally so much easier with modern gear, better fitting boots, and rockered everything that people can ski more laps on harder terrain without tuckering out. I didn't say ski well, I just said ski.

That meas people stay out a little longer, and the high speed high capacity lifts keeps skiers on the runs instead of the line. So, the slopes are crowded with a higher number of less experienced people in higher skill terrain, whether that means they are on a green instead of a bunny hill, a blue instead of a green, or blacks and trees instead of a blue. And they are all skiing not in line, as much.

Meh.

There’s a certain instagram YouTube component.

But that’s not the insanity.

It’s the mega pass. Free days in so many resorts.

It’s why ikon had to charge extra for Jackson hole and Aspen.

Vail has yet to learn that lesson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by total_immortal

I understand how SUPs work, but as I previously posted, even when renewing the SUP, the government legally cannot discriminate against the business model or the owners. SUPs generally specify what the permit holder can/can't do to the physical land and resources, but not how the business is operated. For example, the SUP may allow a new lift to be installed according to the operator's master plan, which is included in the SUP application, but the SUP cannot require that lift be operated a minimum number of days, because it is private infrastructure on leased land. The reason I implied you are wanting government run ski areas is the fact you keep harping on the Forest Service to fix the problem. As long as the ski resort adheres to the master plan submitted when applying for the SUP and doesn't start illegally cutting runs or diverting creeks or building un-approved lifts, the Forest Service doesn't care if the lift line is 8 hours long. And resorts may not be able to force the Forest Service to renew the SUP, but as long as the resort hasn't had any major transgressions, the operator can take the forest service to court if the renewed SUP is too restrictive for no good reason.

How does a non-profit have better tools to manage crowds than a private firm? The non-profit I ski at multiple times a week doesn't seem to have any different tools from the private ski areas I have been to, either on public or private land. If anything, the private resorts have faster lifts to move the lines more quickly. Non-profits can issue permits to their ski area, but a private firm can't? Weren't the reservations last year this exact thing?

It's a business issue, not a government issue.

I'll admit I am extremely uninformed on the Seattle ski scene, but a quick google search of the Seattle area shows something like 7 ski areas between White Pass and Stevens Pass, so I'm not convinced Crustal is the only option. It may be the biggest and have the best terrain, but again, the Forest Service doesn't give a fuck. The public land access issues are another argument and I guarantee the PNW is not the only area with access issues in the winter. I will say you have far more logging roads and less wilderness than where I live, so go buy a sled instead of continuing to support something that is ruining your ski experience.

---

The USFS does care about overcrowding. Attached is a link below setting the precedent. (at boundary waters).

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota...e-overcrowding

For all the fuckups Vail had here in CB, the last 3-4 weeks have been OK. Lifts are spinning, terrain is open. Thankfully we're still far enough away that the crowds aren't that big of a deal: a weekend line might be 4 minutes instead of 0 on a weekday. /antijinx

I'll still happily welcome a new owner, but it could be worse (like it was in early January)

Sorry it's Facebook, and double sorry it's Billy Joel, although the song does fit.

Breck this morning.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/202333...1958?fs=e&s=cl

Maybe it's also mixing up with that crepe line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Sorry it's Facebook, and double sorry it's Billy Joel, although the song does fit.

Breck this morning.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/202333...1958?fs=e&s=cl

Maybe it's also mixing up with that crepe line.

---

How do parents do it? There’s no way I’d wait in a line like that just to get to the gondola just to get to another shitshow at the base of Peak 8, with impatient kids. And there’s no way I’d do it as a kid.

How do vacationers come back each season to ski and deal with this shit in Summit County?

Utah resorts are so much easier and less crowded (except PC); I just don’t get the appeal of flying into Denver, sitting in hours of traffic to get to Breck, then having this as your ski vacation. Not to mention hour long waits to cram into a restaurant for dinner. And yet people come back over and over again, year after year.

Friends don’t let friends ski Presidents weekend.

And on top of that, pay seven figures for a house/condo there.

Last period of time I spent there was nearly three months in '14 (Frisco), and I skied Breck once, and that was a Friday that was like most Saturdays elsewhere. I said, nope, never again. Denver suburb. I'm guessing it's much much worse. Shame, nice mountain on top
ABasin's decision to exit the Epic pass just looks smarter and smarter.

https://www.stormskiing.com/p/is-it-...m_medium=email

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

https://www.stormskiing.com/p/is-it-...m_medium=email

---

If such a thing were to be enacted, Vail's capacity limits will be determined by its lobbyists and political donations

The best short article I've read about this thing.

https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/skiers-revolt

Many flaws have been brought to the spotlight, so now we see what they view as a solution. It will start with Epic pricing for next season which should come any day now as tis the season.

Edit: So, it looks like their first “solution” is to extend season to May 1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkiBall

Many flaws have been brought to the spotlight, so now we see what they view as a solution. It will start with Epic pricing for next season which should come any day now as tis the season.

Edit: So, it looks like their first “solution” is to extend season to May 1.

---

Can you imagine the meager labor force's reaction? VR has them by the balls with the raise, and all those visas ....

Yeah, should be epic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

Can you imagine the meager labor force's reaction? VR has them by the balls with the raise, and all those visas ....

Yeah, should be epic.

---

I am not VR and it still is going to really eff with work side of things. And for us that the shoulder season window for vacay was already kinda slim with the 24th closing, this kinda really sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkiBall

So, it looks like their first “solution” is to extend season to May 1.

---

It's so the lifties will leave early and not get their bonus. They typically close at the end of the second week of April, now the will slim back operations for two extra weeks, and lifties will get only 20-24 hrs of shifts for two week. Will they go join their landscaping jobs for 40+hrs a week and forfeit their Vail bonus. or will they stick around for only 20hs a week just to get this bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

It's so the lifties will leave early and not get their bonus. They typically close at the end of the second week of April, now the will slim back operations for two extra weeks, and lifties will get only 20-24 hrs of shifts for two week. Will they go join their landscaping jobs for 40+hrs a week and forfeit their Vail bonus. or will they stick around for only 20hs a week just to get this bonus.

---

They are so short staffed I don't think 40 hrs will be a problem, especially when all the J1's are forced to leave (before the season ends).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benny Profane

Listen to the Katz interview in that podcast. That's definitely something I took away. The man has zero passion for skiing. Yeah, he probably skis a little, but, more out of obligation than anything. And he's top dog at that company, still, even if there's a new CEO, who should have been interviewed. That's her job, after all. And he sets the tone with his hires and promotions, too. Listen to a few other Vail higher ups that the Storm Skiing Journal interviewed, and it's the same vacuous corporate babble. Alterra isn't perfect, of course, but at least when Stuart interviews them, I hear a VP or hill manager talk about their history starting as a liftie or instructor more than once, and their love of skiing.

---

I finally listened to the Katz interview on my drive home yesterday and you're right; he danced around a lot of the topics, and didn't take much ownership of any of the problems they're facing. He kept saying that they're getting unfairly targeted on social media this year, and tried to deflect any criticisms that were brought up. When he was specifically asked about how they will improve next year, he didn't even really answer the question. It's easy to see he doesn't care; he knows they're going to keep pulling in pass sales revenue, and he doesn't give a damn about the actual experience.

^^^^

And that’s it in a nutshell. VR has your money and doesn’t give a fuck.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

From a company email today by Kirsten Lynch

New $20 per hour minimum wage at all 37 North American mountain resorts and corporate.
New $21 per hour minimum for Patrol, Maintenance Technicians and Certified Commercial Vehicle Drivers.
New CAD $20 per hour minimum wage at Whistler Blackcomb, from current CAD $15.20.
Guaranteed minimum of $20 per hour for tipped roles.
Hourly employee wages will increase with compression adjustments based on leadership and career stage differentials.
This represents an average wage increase of nearly 30% across hourly employees in North America


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Housing is still the nut to be cracked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ffmedic84

From a company email today by Kirsten Lynch

New $20 per hour minimum wage at all 37 North American mountain resorts and corporate.
New $21 per hour minimum for Patrol, Maintenance Technicians and Certified Commercial Vehicle Drivers.
New CAD $20 per hour minimum wage at Whistler Blackcomb, from current CAD $15.20.
Guaranteed minimum of $20 per hour for tipped roles.
Hourly employee wages will increase with compression adjustments based on leadership and career stage differentials.
This represents an average wage increase of nearly 30% across hourly employees in North America


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

---

Did they announce annual executive bonuses?

I sense a significant increase is pass prices coming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by This End Up

I sense a significant increase is pass prices coming.

---

I would welcome that with open arms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I would welcome that with open arms.

---

Co-signed. .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Housing is still the nut to be cracked.

---

Lack of an HR department was the main gripe I heard from actual employees. Housing was next up. Both are being addressed in the email. We will see if done in a significant manner.

Stated a significant investment in affordable on mountain housing development as well as commitment to build more as they get permits approved by local governments.

This set of initiatives, if followed through on, would make MTN highly competitive for seasonal workers in pretty much every community they are in. It will hit some independent businesses in their zones relatively hard for a work force.

Agree the cost of an epic pass needs to go up.

When will they announce next season’s pricing and offerings?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XavierD

It will hit some independent businesses in their zones relatively hard for a work force.

---

Yeah, but if the ski area is fucked those local businesses are kind of fucked too. It all starts with the ski area.

Quote:

---

Agree the cost of an epic pass needs to go up.

---

The couple billion they have in the bank isn't enough?